Christian version of Darwin's Origin of Species

Random_Wookie

he still stands wrote:

But it is also silly (and dogmatic) to strictly adhere to a belief for which there is no proof nor could there ever be proof, since you cannot prove something does not exist.

It's up to you to prove that god exists, not for us to prove that god does not exists.

As for the big bang there are some holes in that theory in my view with relation to what caused the singularity. But this can also be applied to the existance of god, because how did god come into existance.

Back to that video and Intelligent Design has been proven wrong as far as I am concerned, all you need to do is take a look at the data that supports evolution. There without even knowing about evoulition you should be able to see a species natural progression into its current form.

soulsinging

he still stands wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

people originally believed that god's were responsible for thunder and lightening...for floods, rain, snow, etc.

We have pushed god back into the furthest corners of space....I can offer no proof that god does not exist because I can offer no proof that blue monkeys don't live beneath the ocean floor and exert mind control over human beings.

It is obvious that you think the concept of "god(s)" is silly, asinine, and inconceivable. Maybe it is...

But it is also silly (and dogmatic) to strictly adhere to a belief for which there is no proof nor could there ever be proof, since you cannot prove something does not exist.

That is my only point; be careful about "believing" in things and then spending the rest of your life dismissing the other viewpoint. As I've said on here before - atheists tend to be equally dogmatic and fanatical as fundamentalist christians about their beliefs. Sometimes it is more honest to just say, "I don't know."

Yet you claim to know, and then discount atheists claiming the same knowledge. You can't have it both ways. You are right that atheists cannot prove a negative, but that doesn't make their belief totally irrational. If you want to prove the existence of God, you have to provide the evidence. And you can't do that. The total lack of such evidence is a powerful argument in itself. As someone mentioned the tooth fairy, the fact that nobody has any evidence of a tooth fairy tips the scales a whole lot more towards the "no tooth fairy" end of things than the existence of a tooth fairy. So the lack of any evidence on God points a lot more to atheism than religion. The reason atheists are "dogmatic" is becos you're trying to convince them without any evidence. If you handed an atheist a smoking gun piece of evidence for God, most of the ones I knew would accept it. But you don't have that, so you tell yourself they're just dogmatic and close-minded, when the real problem is that your argument holds no water. And it's a double standard to say that such atheists should then claim to "not know" while you claim such certainty of a less convincing prospect.

he still stands

Random_Wookie wrote:

he still stands wrote:

But it is also silly (and dogmatic) to strictly adhere to a belief for which there is no proof nor could there ever be proof, since you cannot prove something does not exist.

It's up to you to prove that god exists, not for us to prove that god does not exists.

As for the big bang there are some holes in that theory in my view with relation to what caused the singularity. But this can also be applied to the existance of god, because how did god come into existance.

Back to that video and Intelligent Design has been proven wrong as far as I am concerned, all you need to do is take a look at the data that supports evolution. There without even knowing about evoulition you should be able to see a species natural progression into its current form.

I can't prove god exists (i.e. I haven't met god and gotten the dna sample)... but then again I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sheesh........ Beliefs are the death of intelligence. If I don't believe in non-theism then I must be a theist... if I don't believe in capitalism then I must be a communist... if I don't believe everything the government tells me then I must be a conspiracy theorist.

Prove god exists? Shit, sometimes I have a hard time proving that I exist!

Random_Wookie

he still stands wrote:

but then again I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry missunderstood your previous couple of posts

he still stands wrote:

but then again I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Beliefs are the death of intelligence. If I don't believe in non-theism then I must be a theist... if I don't believe in capitalism then I must be a communist... if I don't believe everything the government tells me then I must be a conspiracy theorist.

Only if i was force to choose would I call my self an atheist, I dont belive anything my governmet tells me without doing some research first.

soulsinging wrote:

The reason atheists are "dogmatic" is becos you're trying to convince them without any evidence. If you handed an atheist a smoking gun piece of evidence for God, most of the ones I knew would accept it.

but if an atheist was to prove that god(s) did not exists, would religous people be able to accept that or would we get a return to the days of burning people for being heritcs,witches etc?

he still stands

but if an atheist was to prove that god(s) did not exists, would religous people be able to accept that or would we get a return to the days of burning people for being heritcs,witches etc?

well like I've said a couple dozen times in this thread, logically, you cannot prove that anything does not exist, including god.

It may be said that "a leprechaun does not exist in my present location in space and time (in this room at this moment)" but one cannot prove that leprechauns do not exist in all other locations of space and time, which are almost infinite. Same goes with god.

soulsinging

he still stands wrote:

but if an atheist was to prove that god(s) did not exists, would religous people be able to accept that or would we get a return to the days of burning people for being heritcs,witches etc?

well like I've said a couple dozen times in this thread, logically, you cannot prove that anything does not exist, including god.

It may be said that "a leprechaun does not exist in my present location in space and time (in this room at this moment)" but one cannot prove that leprechauns do not exist in all other locations of space and time, which are almost infinite. Same goes with god.

that sounds like academia/pothead philosophy. you could easily take that one further and say you don't know if a leprechaun does not exist in your present location... maybe you can't see one, but how do you know they don't exist right now in your room in a form you don't recognize? at that point, you jump to the most absurd and irrelevant arguments.

you don't KNOW that if you step out the window you will fall. and you can't prove the negative that human beings can't fly. but you and i both know you won't step out of a 30 story window because for all your academic posturing, you DO know exactly what will happen because you know that nobody on this earth has ever done something like that and not fallen. similarly, nobody on this planet has ever seen or captured a leprechaun, or seen and spoken to god (outside the delusional). so it's a pretty safe bet to say 'there are no leprechauns in this world' and 'there is no god in this world.' if you want to get into your psych-crap mumbo jumob, sure it's not 100% certain, nothing is. but i'd say it's just as sound an argument as saying you can't fly out your window... i can't prove that you can't fly out your window, but anyone with half a brain can look at the world and history and everything we know about both and pretty readily say... no, you can't.

decides2dream

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

Astronomy is like religion repellant...mind blowing shit

I really got into astronomy a few years ago and, paradoxically, it gave me MORE evidence for the existence of "god."

I'm with ya. I believe it simply broadens the definition of GOD to be more like "The Force" that gets mentioned in Star Wars, rather than an old dude with a beard (but hey, why not? Maybe He / She / It takes on different forms to different people?). I think there is probably greater dispute over what to call our creator than the fact that we were all created by something, and that we all really come from the same place. It's like the concept of "infinity." You know it exists, but it just blows your mind to think about it.

that truly made me laugh!


however, i do truly *get* your analogy. i think if were to believe in 'god' - and i am still on the fence about it, this whole 'life force' idea is more akin to my line of thinking.

as to christians 'dealing with' the inconsistencies of their faith against science....i think a LOT of them do NOT follow a strict, literal adherence to the bible in regards to timelines, age of the planet, etc. i know my own mother, quite a religious catholic, has never seemingly taken issue with any of being taught about evolution, the existence of dinosaurs, etc. i think perhaps that christians may well realize that even within their beliefs of god/jesus, it is certainly possible to believe in evolution as well. that perhaps the bible is meant as a guide, more illustrative, than cold, hard facts. perhaps they believe it was beyond understanding to delve into it"all" when the bible first came about, and that it was meant to discover the full truth, in time, with great human knowledge and understanding. i do believe intelligence and faith can coexist, as can religious belief and scientific belief.

soulsinging

decides2dream wrote:

as to christians 'dealing with' the inconsistencies of their faith against science....i think a LOT of them do NOT follow a strict, literal adherence to the bible in regards to timelines, age of the planet, etc. i know my own mother, quite a religious catholic, has never seemingly taken issue with any of being taught about evolution, the existence of dinosaurs, etc. i think perhaps that christians may well realize that even within their beliefs of god/jesus, it is certainly possible to believe in evolution as well. that perhaps the bible is meant as a guide, more illustrative, than cold, hard facts. perhaps they believe it was beyond understanding to delve into it"all" when the bible first came about, and that it was meant to discover the full truth, in time, with great human knowledge and understanding. i do believe intelligence and faith can coexist, as can religious belief and scientific belief.

hell, the pope came right out and said there's nothing wrong with teaching evolution and it's probably very accurate. there was also a vatican astronomer quoted as saying he's almost certain there is other life out there in the universe. odd that that kind of embrace of science is coming from historically the most traditional and tyrannical sect!

the creationism thing is a much smaller segment of the population than it seems, i believe. the problem is, it's a very large minority and they're very vocal and well organized and insular. it makes them almost impervious to any outside ideas to even get in. that's why it's such a force in american politics... it's a goldmine bedrock voting base that you know you can easily manipulate and guarantee at the polls.

Random_Wookie

he still stands wrote:

but if an atheist was to prove that god(s) did not exists, would religous people be able to accept that or would we get a return to the days of burning people for being heritcs,witches etc?

well like I've said a couple dozen times in this thread, logically, you cannot prove that anything does not exist, including god.

It may be said that "a leprechaun does not exist in my present location in space and time (in this room at this moment)" but one cannot prove that leprechauns do not exist in all other locations of space and time, which are almost infinite. Same goes with god.

true but does religion not state that god created the universe? if that is the case then god would have to had to existed at some point for him to create the universe (perhaps god was responsible for the big bang). Otherwise religion would be based on a falsehood and that would then bring that whole religion into question. This would be the same for any scientific theory if it was disproven then it would be ignored.

WaveCameCrashin

All the legitimate alternatives should be presented in the classroom. For a professor to say you can't mention or discuss intelligent design is fascism. Im not saying turn to Christianity, but it should be discussed,and also that there are more believers than non believers.

I believe in creative design and I believe in evolution,but I think it was over seen by a Higher Power. The problem I have with Science is that it doesn't advance the human condition in any moralistic way,and jesus did.If everybody Followed his teachings we would have Peace On Earth. Would we not ? I think everyone would love one another and we'd almost be an idllic civilization.

Im not 100% sure that Jesus God,but I choose to believe that because the man was so extraordinary in what he did in his 33 yrs on earth, an it still resonates to this day.

I know I'll get branded and get looked down upon for being a christian on here bcos that's what most atheist do.

he still stands

Random_Wookie wrote:

true but does religion not state that god created the universe?

Which religion? I really dig Taoism, which does not (similar to most other Eastern religions as far as I know). It is not important to the Eastern philosophy. To most Christians, yes.

Random_Wookie wrote:

if that is the case then god would have to had to existed at some point for him to create the universe (perhaps god was responsible for the big bang). Otherwise religion would be based on a falsehood and that would then bring that whole religion into question. This would be the same for any scientific theory if it was disproven then it would be ignored.

:?:

Before the "big bang" there was no such thing as space or time... there was no "before" the big bang. There was nothing, and then there was everything. This is quantum physics here... not some preachy religious shit. Again, I think most quantum physicists would agree that this screams of "creationism" which is why a lot of scientists who are atheists hate it, and ironically the fundamentalist religion folk don't know that and are trying to disprove it as well because they think it somehow is trying to disprove god.

The atheists use theory issues like the "horizon problem" to disprove the big bang because they think it screams creationism, and theists use the horizon problem to disprove it because they think the big bang theory is atheistic. Funny stuff... really.

soulsinging

prfctlefts wrote:

All the legitimate alternatives should be presented in the classroom. For a professor to say you can't mention or discuss intelligent design is fascism. Im not saying turn to Christianity, but it should be discussed.

I believe in creative design and I believe in evolution,but I think it was over seen by a Higher Power. The problem I have with Science is that it doesn't advance the human condition in any moralistic way,and jesus did.If everybody Followed his teachings we would have Peace On Earth. Would we not ? I think everyone would love one another and we'd almost be an idllic civilization.

Im not 100% sure that Jesus God,but I choose to believe that because the man was so extraordinary in what he did in his 33 yrs on earth, an it still resonates to this day.

if we were all non-violent hindus, we'd have peace on earth. so what's so great about christianity? if we were all the same and peaceful and loving, we'd have peace on earth. maybe if we were all stoned all the time, we'd have peace on earth.

i'm not saying the teachings are bad, but some pipe dream of universal utopia based on everyone adopting the same religious beliefs as you is a VERY dangerous idea.

science has nothing to do with moralism. why would it? do you really want our public schools teaching morals? whose morals? should we teach the secular humanism of tolerance for gays, or the bigotry of pentecostal visionaries that think homos are the spawn of satan? which one gets in? are our teachers the best equipped people to do this? or is it more appropriately something that should be taught by family, friends, community, or pastors?

he still stands

prfctlefts wrote:

All the legitimate alternatives should be presented in the classroom. For a professor to say you can't mention or discuss intelligent design is fascism. Im not saying turn to Christianity, but it should be discussed.

I believe in creative design and I believe in evolution,but I think it was over seen by a Higher Power. The problem I have with Science is that it doesn't advance the human condition in any moralistic way,and jesus did.If everybody Followed his teachings we would have Peace On Earth. Would we not ? I think everyone would love one another and we'd almost be an idllic civilization.

Im not 100% sure that Jesus God,but I choose to believe that because the man was so extraordinary in what he did in his 33 yrs on earth, an it still resonates to this day.

No, no, no. Beliefs do not belong in the classroom. Scientific consensus belongs in the classroom. Is there any peer-reviewed scientific journals that advocate creationism? Just one?!?!

Morality... shit. "Morality," today, allows Moslems to stone women to death, as it once fueled the Christian witch-hunts. "Morality" has excused every war, and glorified some of them. "Morality" constantly plots to subvert the Constitutional guarantee of free speech. "Morality" inspires gay-bashing and the bombing of women's clinics. Why, without "morality" we might all suddenly go stark staring sane.

It is that religion shit that got us into most of the wars we're involved in right now, so it seems ironic that you think religion will cure all the world's problems.

Yes, Jesus was extraordinary - I agree. A lot can be learned from his teachings. But the same can be said about MLK, Ghandi, my grandpa, RFK, John Adams, Kurt Vonnegut, Eddie Vedder, and on and on... but I don't worship those dudes.

WaveCameCrashin

Oh man... I should have gotten off at the next stop.

WaveCameCrashin

he still stands wrote:

I agree. A lot can be learned from his teachings. But the same can be said about MLK, Ghandi, my grandpa, RFK, John Adams, Kurt Vonnegut,

yes you are right sir

Gern Blansten

I'm not even convinced that Jesus was an actual person. I have researched this and honestly cannot see how others can say with certainty that he existed. Too many of his "lessons" were lifted from those before him for him to be given credit for anything at all.

It's a nice story though....but it is just a story

Random_Wookie

Gern Blansten wrote:

I'm not even convinced that Jesus was an actual person. I have researched this and honestly cannot see how others can say with certainty that he existed. Too many of his "lessons" were lifted from those before him for him to be given credit for anything at all.

It's a nice story though....but it is just a story

i was watching a doco on noahs ark not too long ago and the one thing I found interesting was that the story looked to have been borred from earlier stories as a fable to tell small children. Granted their is no way to say that jesus did or did not exists. Perhaps their was some guy named jesus who lived arround that time, but was he the same guy describe in the bible? All i know about the bible was it not written 200 years or so after the fact?

prfctlefts wrote:

All the legitimate alternatives should be presented in the classroom. For a professor to say you can't mention or discuss intelligent design is fascism. Im not saying turn to Christianity, but it should be discussed,and also that there are more believers than non believers.

I believe in creative design and I believe in evolution,but I think it was over seen by a Higher Power. The problem I have with Science is that it doesn't advance the human condition in any moralistic way,and jesus did.If everybody Followed his teachings we would have Peace On Earth. Would we not ? I think everyone would love one another and we'd almost be an idllic civilization.

Im not 100% sure that Jesus God,but I choose to believe that because the man was so extraordinary in what he did in his 33 yrs on earth, an it still resonates to this day.

but does not creative design be disproved by evolution, or at least the fossils we have found that show a gradual change in species over time. Perhaps you are right as it could be used as a simplistic example of how we came to be, but is it worth teaching as their would be far more important topics to be covered in a science class. Why should science improve the human condition in a moralistic way, does relgion do this. Or do people become good people out of selfish means so they can get into heaven?

But what version of the bible would we follow and how would we interpret it? this would probablly cause just as much hatered and violence as their is the the world today.

prfctlefts wrote:

I know I'll get branded and get looked down upon for being a christian on here bcos that's what most atheist do.

not from me you wont mate.

sorry guys a little sleep deprevied today (only got two hours) and sick

gabers

Sometimes science takes a leap of faith too. Someone please explain to me how the big bang theory is so much more believable than God creating the heavens and earth. Forget all the other stuff, just argue big bang over creation. I'll wait.

For the record, I am a Christian and believe in evolution. I find a way to make both work. It just doesn't fit into most people's neat little beliefs.

Cosmo

prfctlefts wrote:

All the legitimate alternatives should be presented in the classroom. For a professor to say you can't mention or discuss intelligent design is fascism. Im not saying turn to Christianity, but it should be discussed,and also that there are more believers than non believers.

I believe in creative design and I believe in evolution,but I think it was over seen by a Higher Power. The problem I have with Science is that it doesn't advance the human condition in any moralistic way,and jesus did.If everybody Followed his teachings we would have Peace On Earth. Would we not ? I think everyone would love one another and we'd almost be an idllic civilization.

Im not 100% sure that Jesus God,but I choose to believe that because the man was so extraordinary in what he did in his 33 yrs on earth, an it still resonates to this day.

I know I'll get branded and get looked down upon for being a christian on here bcos that's what most atheist do.

...
Science does not exist to advance human morality. It is trying to explain the natural world that humans exist in. Just as it is not up to religion to explain things such as gravity, plate techtonics or biology. Both religion and science can live together, as long as one does not feel threatened by the existance of the other.
As for schools... keep religion in your churches. No one says you must also teach Evolution along side with your sermons... why is it okay to teach your religion to everyone?
And Christianity does not corner the market on morality. Morality is a human trait and does not only exist in the person that has religion. If Christians were more 'like Christ' in their everyday living... caring for the poor... the less fortunate... the weak, then us heathens would probably have more respect. Jesus was about forgiveness... not death penalties. Peace, not War. Turning the other cheek, not striking back in anger... with hatred. You talk about a peaceful world... if only everyone else were like you. Have you ever thought it would be a peaceful world... if you were just like me?
No one 'looks down' on Christians... so, you can shed that whole persecution thing. You are doing the exact same thing you claim to hate... grouping all Aetheists as one... when you hate being lumped to gether with all Christians.
Me? Personally? I have no problems with God, Jesus or Christianity. My problem arises with the people who follow Jesus in name only. Unforgiveness, intolerance, prejudice, war, indifference, exclusion... those are not the teachings of Jesus... yet, i see it in the lives of many, many of His followers.

Cosmo

gabers wrote:

Sometimes science takes a leap of faith too. Someone please explain to me how the big bang theory is so much more believable than God creating the heavens and earth. Forget all the other stuff, just argue big bang over creation. I'll wait.

For the record, I am a Christian and believe in evolution. I find a way to make both work. It just doesn't fit into most people's neat little beliefs.

...
Science in not so much about answers... it is more about questions.
Science does not profess to know what existed before the Big Bang... but, Christianity has it neatly wrapped up in 5000 year old text? Wouldn't that mean, men... 5000 years ago knew more about our Universe than we know today... right?
...
Since no one has the answer... except the Christians... I can come up with my own hypothesis. The Big Bang was simply the start of the existance of this Universe we are experiencing at this time. It is a cycle. Explosion. Expansion. Equilibrium. Contraction. Compression. Explosion. Never ending... no beginning. We created God in order to give it meaning... when maybe there in no meaning... other than what we make of it.
I have no proof of this... but, at the purely logical level... it's just as good as the Bible's explanation. The biggest difference... I'm not telling eveyone else the I know the truth.