Obama Health Plan to tax the rich

Byrnzie

prfctlefts wrote:

take my moms for instance she pays $400.00 a month through her employer she's 59 doesn't smoke and is in good health.

Fuck that shit, for want of a better expression.

WaveCameCrashin

Well the consequences that the elderly are feeling from their program are this, limited colonoscopies have led to a 25% higher rate of colon cancer and a ban on the use of two best chemotherapies are part of the reason why 42% of canadians die with colon cancer die while 31% of americans who have access to these 2 medications survive the disease.

Honestly I don't know what the answer is but I do know this much.Today 80,000 doctors struggle to treat adequately the 250 million americans who have insurance .Obama will add 50 million more to their case load with no expansion the number of doctors and nurses . His plan will reduce their numbers by lowering reimbursement rates and imposing bureaucrats above them who will force medical decisions down their throats. fewer doctors will have to treat more patients . The inevitable result will be rationing

soulsinging

prfctlefts wrote:

Honestly I don't know what the answer is but I do know this much.Today 80,000 doctors struggle to treat adequately the 250 million americans who have insurance .Obama will add 50 million more to their case load with no expansion the number of doctors and nurses . His plan will reduce their numbers by lowering reimbursement rates and imposing bureaucrats above them who will force medical decisions down their throats. fewer doctors will have to treat more patients . The inevitable result will be rationing

I'm not sure this is the case. I know people that have worked in doctor's offices and they say that an absurd amount of time in a doctor's office is spent paying people to file paperwork endlessly for 15 different insurance companies, calling claims reps to see if something is covered, etc. They could lose a ton of overhead and red tape by just having one payer (as opposed to hundreds of companies with different standards and coverage and forms to be filled out and doctor's signatures to be affixed). That's a lot more time spent with a patient. Plus, you have to factor in the freedom of people being able to go to any doctor they like, as opposed to having their choices limited by their insurance provider. This funnels a lot of people into a very limited number of offices. You expand the ability of many doctors to not have to join a practice and set up shop more locally, knowing they don't need to get cleared by dozens of different insurance companies to get paid for anything.

I also think it's pretty sick that you think you deserve care more than the uninsured. Heaven forbid they get a slice of the pie... that means you might have to wait another week or two for your checkup while some POOR person gets their first doctor's visit in 10 years. the horror!

jlew24asu

Commy wrote:

JB811 wrote:

For everyone that wants government run health care ask the Vets how theirs works for them.

I am against this.

think i'll ask the French, that's how it SHOULD be done.

first of all, France and America are two VERY different countries. 60 mil vs 300 mil. also, does France have millions of illegal aliens living within its borders? I really dont know but I doubt it. In America, tax payers are and will be forced to pick up their tab as well. most importantly, we can not afford UHC. taxs will eventually have to go up across the board. the rich can not fund us forever...they don't have enough money.

secondly, I wouldnt call France's system perfect or a model by which we should follow.

http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04 ... ld-france/

this would most certainly have to happen here...

Funding. Most of the funding is from a 13.55% payroll tax (employers pay 12.8%, individuals pay 0.75%). There is a 5.25% general social contribution tax on income as well. Thus, there is an approximately a 18.8% on employees for health insurance. There are also dedicated taxes which are assessed on tobacco, alcohol, and pharmaceutical company revenues.

...the program is threatened by increasing costs and may be forced to resort to rationing in the future.”

WaveCameCrashin

soulsinging wrote:

I also think it's pretty sick that you think you deserve care more than the uninsured. Heaven forbid they get a slice of the pie... that means you might have to wait another week or two for your checkup while some POOR person gets their first doctor's visit in 10 years. the horror!

I never said that. Im just pointing out the facts. Stop acting like a prick . :roll:

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

Commy wrote:

JB811 wrote:

For everyone that wants government run health care ask the Vets how theirs works for them.

I am against this.

think i'll ask the French, that's how it SHOULD be done.

first of all, France and America are two VERY different countries. 60 mil vs 300 mil. also, does France have millions of illegal aliens living within its borders? I really dont know but I doubt it. In America, tax payers are and will be forced to pick up their tab as well. most importantly, we can not afford UHC. taxs will eventually have to go up across the board. the rich can not fund us forever...they don't have enough money.

secondly, I wouldnt call France's system perfect or a model by which we should follow.

http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04 ... ld-france/

this would most certainly have to happen here...

Funding. Most of the funding is from a 13.55% payroll tax (employers pay 12.8%, individuals pay 0.75%). There is a 5.25% general social contribution tax on income as well. Thus, there is an approximately a 18.8% on employees for health insurance. There are also dedicated taxes which are assessed on tobacco, alcohol, and pharmaceutical company revenues.

...the program is threatened by increasing costs and may be forced to resort to rationing in the future.”

We don't have to do it the way they do, but it is an inspiration. And I know the Scandinavian system works rather well. France has awful problems with unemployment and high taxation, and they have similar issues with immigration... there's a lot of tension between the French and Arab immigrants, just like there is here between Americans and Latinos/Hispanic immigration. They're not terribly inappropriate.

I don't like the idea of payroll taxes, but I think it could be done without increasing them here. In addition, you cancel social security, medicare, and medicaid. Roll all of those into one single-payer system. Those are already taken out of our checks anyway, so there will be no noticeable difference. I am also all for sin/use taxes. Let's put big taxes on cigarettes, alcohol, and fast food or sodas. We have problems with obesity because it's incredibly expensive to eat healthy and dirt cheap to eat junk. Tax fast food to encourage healthier eating. And maybe add in tax breaks for gym membership... any payments made to a gym are deducted from your income taxes. There are plenty of creative approaches possible.

My biggest beef with the current legislation is it looks like a hugely expensive bandaid that will solve none of the underlying problems because it cowtows too much to entrenched interests. It's a piecemeal plan with tons of holes that will take years of patchwork fixing to administer effectively, and the most problematic areas of current problems will not be touched by it. I'm all for Kucinich's plan. We need a sweeping overhaul here, not ineffective tinkering.

soulsinging

prfctlefts wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

I also think it's pretty sick that you think you deserve care more than the uninsured. Heaven forbid they get a slice of the pie... that means you might have to wait another week or two for your checkup while some POOR person gets their first doctor's visit in 10 years. the horror!

I never said that. Im just pointing out the facts. Stop acting like a prick . :roll:

I'm not sure you pointed out any facts, just your speculation that you don't think doctors can handle the added number of visitors. I think the evidence weighs pretty strongly against that. Single-payer does add a lot of patients, but it also gives doctors far more patient time by cutting out tons of paperwork and wrangling with insurance companies. It also opens the door to more flexible, localized practices.

Anon

I've said before that I would be for some type of system for our poor. However there must be guarantees that illegal aliens will not be able to participate.

_

JB811 wrote:

For everyone that wants government run health care ask the Vets how theirs works for them.

I am against this.

People aren't asking for government RUN health care, just government PAID FOR healthcare.

_

prfctlefts wrote:

Honestly I don't know what the answer is but I do know this much.Today 80,000 doctors struggle to treat adequately the 250 million americans who have insurance .Obama will add 50 million more to their case load with no expansion the number of doctors and nurses . His plan will reduce their numbers by lowering reimbursement rates and imposing bureaucrats above them who will force medical decisions down their throats. fewer doctors will have to treat more patients . The inevitable result will be rationing

http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=102298&p=2379623#p2379623

_

JB811 wrote:

I've said before that I would be for some type of system for our poor. However there must be guarantees that illegal aliens will not be able to participate.

That reminds me of a story: We had a patient where I work who gave birth to her 3rd child and wanted her tubes tied. We couldn't do it because she's undocumented and therefore has no access to insurance. So she was put on a less expensive, less effective method of birth control. Fast forward a few years and she comes back - pregnant. She had an extremely complicated pregnancy and ended up having a c-section and a baby with lots of problems. She is told that it would be very dangerous for her to ever have another baby. Again, she wants her tubes tied and we can't do it because undocumented immigrants are not able to participate in our health system for the poor.

Now I know it would be absolutely outrageous for any of our hard-earned American dollars to be used for providing health care for another human being who... *gasp*... hasn't completed the proper paperwork. :roll: But guess who is now paying WAY, WAY more money to cover her complicated pregnancy & childbbirth - not to mention healthcare for her unintended child for rest of its life - when they could have just forked out much less for a tubal to begin with? That's right... us and our hard-earned American dollars.

ajedigecko

i think there needs to be incentives in place for people who stay in shape and do not engage in destructive behavior towards their health.

Anon

scb wrote:

JB811 wrote:

For everyone that wants government run health care ask the Vets how theirs works for them.

I am against this.

People aren't asking for government RUN health care, just government PAID FOR healthcare.

Well the government is not paying for it, the taxpayers are.

TriumphantAngel

jlew24asu wrote:

lets just keep milkin em. its basically becoming a crime to be successful in this country.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... care_N.htm

Under the House legislation, families earning between $350,000 and $500,000 would pay an additional 1% in income tax. The new tax would increase with higher salaries so that families earning more than $1 million would pay an additional 5.4%. The tax would apply to the top 1.2% of households in the USA, according to a House Ways and Means Committee document.

I'm ok with this.

If my income was in the top 1.2% of households in the US, paying an additional 1% income tax to help someone less fortunate than i, would be the least of my worries.

The Health system in the States is nothing to be proud of. Government run health care is not without some problems either, but I've worked in a country that has universal health care and im working in a country that doesn't. So i have experienced both.

The one thing i will say about the Country that did have it....people that require urgent life saving non elective surgery are treated as a priority. The same thing does not happen here.

And thats a fact. What good is you having the best doctors in the world, when the people that need them the most can't get treatment?

TriumphantAngel

JB811 wrote:

I've said before that I would be for some type of system for our poor. However there must be guarantees that illegal aliens will not be able to participate.

i strongly disagree.

but i never agree with you on this issue, so nothing to see here. move along.

TriumphantAngel

scb wrote:

JB811 wrote:

I've said before that I would be for some type of system for our poor. However there must be guarantees that illegal aliens will not be able to participate.

That reminds me of a story: We had a patient where I work who gave birth to her 3rd child and wanted her tubes tied. We couldn't do it because she's undocumented and therefore has no access to insurance. So she was put on a less expensive, less effective method of birth control. Fast forward a few years and she comes back - pregnant. She had an extremely complicated pregnancy and ended up having a c-section and a baby with lots of problems. She is told that it would be very dangerous for her to ever have another baby. Again, she wants her tubes tied and we can't do it because undocumented immigrants are not able to participate in our health system for the poor.

Now I know it would be absolutely outrageous for any of our hard-earned American dollars to be used for providing health care for another human being who... *gasp*... hasn't completed the proper paperwork. :roll: But guess who is now paying WAY, WAY more money to cover her complicated pregnancy & childbbirth - not to mention healthcare for her unintended child for rest of its life - when they could have just forked out much less for a tubal to begin with? That's right... us and our hard-earned American dollars.

gosh. another person who works in the health system too, and sees how it really is.

thank you.

Commy

jlew24asu wrote:

Commy wrote:

JB811 wrote:

For everyone that wants government run health care ask the Vets how theirs works for them.

I am against this.

think i'll ask the French, that's how it SHOULD be done.

first of all, France and America are two VERY different countries. 60 mil vs 300 mil. also, does France have millions of illegal aliens living within its borders? I really dont know but I doubt it. In America, tax payers are and will be forced to pick up their tab as well. most importantly, we can not afford UHC. taxs will eventually have to go up across the board. the rich can not fund us forever...they don't have enough money.

secondly, I wouldnt call France's system perfect or a model by which we should follow.

http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04 ... ld-france/

this would most certainly have to happen here...

Funding. Most of the funding is from a 13.55% payroll tax (employers pay 12.8%, individuals pay 0.75%). There is a 5.25% general social contribution tax on income as well. Thus, there is an approximately a 18.8% on employees for health insurance. There are also dedicated taxes which are assessed on tobacco, alcohol, and pharmaceutical company revenues.

...the program is threatened by increasing costs and may be forced to resort to rationing in the future.”

if we can drop 1 trillion bombing brown people in Iraq we can sure as hell afford to take care of people living in the states. even if its more than 1 trillion, the US military budget is roughly equal to that of the rest of the world combined (not counting the wars in iraq and afghanistan), we can afford universal health care. we just need to decide how we want to spend our tax dollars -taking lives or saving them. basically we have the resources to cover every single american and illegal and not raise taxes, as it is.

france has less people, but we have more resources. its possible. cuba has more trained doctors operating around the world than we do, and they pay less for the exact same meds we get here. if cuba can do it, one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere, we sure as hell can do it better, its just a matter of motivating our leaders properly. strikes, riots, protests, if only americans weren't so lazy.


i think scb answered the question about the illegal immigrants. seems to be cheaper to allow them access to health care, in the long run.

Anon

scb wrote:

JB811 wrote:

I've said before that I would be for some type of system for our poor. However there must be guarantees that illegal aliens will not be able to participate.

That reminds me of a story: We had a patient where I work who gave birth to her 3rd child and wanted her tubes tied. We couldn't do it because she's undocumented and therefore has no access to insurance. So she was put on a less expensive, less effective method of birth control. Fast forward a few years and she comes back - pregnant. She had an extremely complicated pregnancy and ended up having a c-section and a baby with lots of problems. She is told that it would be very dangerous for her to ever have another baby. Again, she wants her tubes tied and we can't do it because undocumented immigrants are not able to participate in our health system for the poor.

Now I know it would be absolutely outrageous for any of our hard-earned American dollars to be used for providing health care for another human being who... *gasp*... hasn't completed the proper paperwork. :roll: But guess who is now paying WAY, WAY more money to cover her complicated pregnancy & childbbirth - not to mention healthcare for her unintended child for rest of its life - when they could have just forked out much less for a tubal to begin with? That's right... us and our hard-earned American dollars.

The medical bill should be sent to whatever country she is from. The taxpayers of this country should not have to pay for this criminal. Undocumented immigrants? That is like calling the street corner drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist.

jlew24asu

Commy wrote:

if we can drop 1 trillion bombing brown people in Iraq we can sure as hell afford to take care of people living in the states. even if its more than 1 trillion, the US military budget is roughly equal to that of the rest of the world combined (not counting the wars in iraq and afghanistan), we can afford universal health care. we just need to decide how we want to spend our tax dollars -taking lives or saving them. basically we have the resources to cover every single american and illegal and not raise taxes, as it is.

first of all, we CANT afford the war in Iraq. we have taken on massive amounts of debt to fund the war. secondly, UHC will far FAR more then 1 trillion. just look at medicare as an example...it is 30 tillion underfunded.

Commy wrote:

france has less people, but we have more resources. its possible. cuba has more trained doctors operating around the world than we do, and they pay less for the exact same meds we get here. if cuba can do it, one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere, we sure as hell can do it better, its just a matter of motivating our leaders properly. strikes, riots, protests, if only americans weren't so lazy.

we can improve, no question. but UHC will create more problems then it solves.

Commy wrote:

i think scb answered the question about the illegal immigrants. seems to be cheaper to allow them access to health care, in the long run.

or, they can pay taxes like everyone else. there's a novice idea eh?

Gern Blansten

soulsinging wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

This bill will hurt small businesses.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124759535535340189.html

Small Business Faces Big Bite

House Health Bill Penalizes All but Tiniest Employers for Not Providing Insurance

WASHINGTON -- House Democrats on Tuesday unveiled sweeping health-care legislation that would hit all but the smallest businesses with a penalty equal to 8% of payroll if they fail to provide health insurance to workers.

This, on the other hand is appalling, and a perfect illustration of why national health care is a good idea... we should stop burdening businesses with taking on the health care costs of their workers.

what's really scary is that health care costs exceed 8% of a businesses payroll anyway....I would immediately cease health insurance benefits and pay the 8% gladly

our gov't at work....health care is a right....socialized care now