Now back to Israel as usual
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I just needed to bring this down a few posts. Again. JC, good for you for bringing this to our attention: but guess what - everyone here knows.benjs said:I really had thought that we had come to a consensus that there are injustices occurring daily within the region from Israeli Jews, towards non-Jews as well as towards Mizrahi Jews and Ethiopian Jews. So, for anyone who's been living under a rock for the last, say, 66 years, you should be blown away to find out that this is happening, and I expect anger and disgust. For anyone else - there's great content in here to remind you and let that anger and disgust resurface.
So now that we're all on the same page, what's our next step? This is where we always seem to arrive at, and then falter. We've recognized issues time and time again. How can we push forward to rectify them? If we learn about these issues and let their only byproducts be anger and disgust - we've failed. Isn't the point of being aware to drive change? If not, I'd like to go back to my state of ignorance. It wasn't blissful, but it was less miserable.
I'll be a bit more blunt than before: when you post examples of Israeli hate crimes towards Palestinians, and offer NO suggestions to follow-up potential resolutions, all you do is increase hate. If you wanted to pivot that to something productive, you could give suggestions for what could be done (whether they're practical or not, it would be better than the 'nothing' you gave instead). But I don't think you do want productivity or positive change, I think you want others to gather and bask in your hate. If I'm wrong, please, feel free to tell me what your end goal is by sharing these: if what you have to say has no purpose, or the only perceivable purpose is inherently negative (by the way - this inaction does not serve the cause you and I feel is worthy of a great time and effort investment), why even bother?
JC, please tell me what you want me to do with this information.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
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Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.0
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Yes, Israel is a demonic baby-eating hell-demon. You've made that very clear. But, to paraphrase Benjys, so what? If you have nothing productive to say why say anything at all?you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane0
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If you have nothing productive to say...after that post you just created, you want to lecture someone else about a post not being productive?yosi said:Yes, Israel is a demonic baby-eating hell-demon. You've made that very clear. But, to paraphrase Benjys, so what? If you have nothing productive to say why say anything at all?
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Here's a full record of ceasefire violations on both sides since the commencement of the agreement at the end of August:
10/31: A single rocket reportedly landed in Eshkol Regional Council, southern Israel. No injuries or property damaged was caused, and none of the Palestinian factions claimed responsibility. Yet it triggered an indefinite border closure and F16 forays. Gazans suspect a false-flag operation.
10/29: A 27-year-old man identified only by his initials, S. Gh., was seriously injured after being shot in the thigh in Beit Lahiya. He was taken to Kamal Udwan Hospital. An Israeli army spokesman said warning shots were fired because the man “approached the security fence.”
10/28: The Israeli navy targeted Palestinian fishing boats with gunfire offshore the coast of Gaza. No casualties were reported.
10/22: Israeli forces opened fire on two boats carrying seven fishermen. Five fishermen from the Bakr family were taken into custody for questioning and their boat was dragged to an unknown location.
10/16: Israeli boats opened fire at boats belonging to local a fisherman off the coast of Deir al-Balah. The boat belonging to Jamal Abu Watfa was sunk in the attack and he lost consciousness, but was saved from the water.
10/11: A 24-year-old civilian was injured by Israeli fire approximately 300 meters from the border in Beit Lahia.
10/9: Israeli army forces stationed at the Kisovim military post opened fire on Palestinian farmlands in Khan Younis in the southern Gaza Strip. No injuries were reported.
10/7: Navy ships and a helicopter opened fire close to a number of fishing boats in the al-Waha area, in northwest Gaza, causing damage but no injuries.
9/22: Israeli gunboats opened fire at a Palestinian boat carrying five fishermen off the Al-Zahra shore, southwest of Gaza City. The five men were forced to jump into the water and swim to the Israeli ship, where their hands were bound and they were taken to Ashdod Seaport. They were freed the next day, but their boat was not released.
9/16: A single rocket was fired from Gaza into southern Israel, but was not claimed by any Palestinian faction and no injuries/property damage resulted.
9/9: Israeli naval forces detained two Palestinian fishermen from the Al-Sultan family, Tariq (18) and ‘Issam ‘Abdel Bari Mohammed Bahaa’ Yousif Mohammed (21), just 1.5 miles from the coast of Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip. Their boat was confiscated and the men were arrested. An hour and a half later, gunned down the fishing boat of two other Al-Sultan brothers - Bahaa’ Yousif Mohammed (25) and Ahmed As’ad Mohammed (22). They too were arrested and their boat was confiscated.
9/3: Israeli gunboats opened fire at Palestinian fishing boats sailing within one nautical mile off the shore of Beit Lahia. Soldiers forced two fishermen, Mohammed Ishaq Mohammed Zayed (18) and Mousa Talal ‘Ata Al-Sultan (24), to jump into the water and swim toward the Israeli gunboat.
10/1: Twelve military vehicles entered Gaza from a gate east of the town of al-Fukhari in the Khan Younis district. The vehicles reportedly crossed some 200 meters into the Strip, and soldiers scanned the area before shooting towards Palestinian farms. Agricultural workers were forced to leave their fields when soldiers shot.
9/29: Rajab Maarouf, a 22-year-old farmer, was shot in the foot in northern Beit Lahiya and taken to Kamal Adwan hospital with moderate injuries.
9/17: Israeli naval forces opened fire off the coast of northern Gaza, moderately injuring fisherman Yousef Zayif, 70.
9/14: An Israeli war ship fired “warning shots” at Palestinian fishermen off the coast of Gaza City’s Al-Shati refugee camp.
9/12: Israeli navy forces opened fire at Palestinian fishermen off the coast of Beit Lahiya to the north.
9/11: Four Israeli bulldozers entered a border area in southern Gaza, near the village of al-Qarara, and leveled private Palestinian land. Military vehicles accompanying the bulldozers fired shots, with no reports of injuries.
9/8: Israeli military fired on fishermen, pushing them back to a five-mile limit.
9/5: Israeli military opened fire on two fishermen and arrested them.
9/2: Israeli military opened fire with machine guns on Gaza fishermen.0 -
Remind people of atrocities (reasonably leading to anger), offer no valuable input or potential solutions (leaving the anger in peoples' minds), but have a coke and smile.JC29856 said:Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.
Again, I struggle comprehending how this campaign of post after post of atrocity after atrocity can lead to anything positive for the people whose cause you're attempting to fight for. Do tell me how increased anger and aggression from the people outside of Israel towards Israel and Israelis can lead to change within Israel and Israeli mentalities (the people in the power position). If you can give me a good answer, I'll have no need to keep repeating myself and I'll gladly join you in this campaign.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
In all fairness Ben, we are CONSTANTLY reminded every year about the holocaust aren't we not? I remember spending 1 week on the holocaust and only 2 days on the civil war when I was in school. I would think the civil war was way more important to America then the holocaust.benjs said:
Remind people of atrocities (reasonably leading to anger), offer no valuable input or potential solutions (leaving the anger in peoples' minds), but have a coke and smile.JC29856 said:Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.
Again, I struggle comprehending how this campaign of post after post of atrocity after atrocity can lead to anything positive for the people whose cause you're attempting to fight for. Do tell me how increased anger and aggression from the people outside of Israel towards Israel and Israelis can lead to change within Israel and Israeli mentalities (the people in the power position). If you can give me a good answer, I'll have no need to keep repeating myself and I'll gladly join you in this campaign.
And not for nothing, if we were supposed to learn from the holocaust and "NEVER AGAIN", then why is Israel doing exactly what they said "NEVER AGAIN" to? And Ben, not directing this last paragraph at you. Just sort of making a point.0 -
Nart, I agree with you that we're constantly reminded about the Holocaust. I went to Jewish day school, so I'd have been lucky if it was just one week learning about it. My typical response now when I hear someone talking about the Holocaust is to remind them that a different kind of ethnic cleansing is occurring now by the same people who were once on the other side of the guns, and how this represents the betrayal of the global motion to swear, as you accurately pointed out, "never again". I'm also happy to point out to people the existence of the numerous horrific genocides throughout history (after a visit to Cambodia, that one resonates profoundly with me every single day).badbrains said:
In all fairness Ben, we are CONSTANTLY reminded every year about the holocaust aren't we not? I remember spending 1 week on the holocaust and only 2 days on the civil war when I was in school. I would think the civil war was way more important to America then the holocaust.benjs said:
Remind people of atrocities (reasonably leading to anger), offer no valuable input or potential solutions (leaving the anger in peoples' minds), but have a coke and smile.JC29856 said:Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.
Again, I struggle comprehending how this campaign of post after post of atrocity after atrocity can lead to anything positive for the people whose cause you're attempting to fight for. Do tell me how increased anger and aggression from the people outside of Israel towards Israel and Israelis can lead to change within Israel and Israeli mentalities (the people in the power position). If you can give me a good answer, I'll have no need to keep repeating myself and I'll gladly join you in this campaign.
And not for nothing, if we were supposed to learn from the holocaust and "NEVER AGAIN", then why is Israel doing exactly what they said "NEVER AGAIN" to? And Ben, not directing this last paragraph at you. Just sort of making a point.
I suppose that the difference for me in the way these discussions here are going, when compared to teaching children about the Holocaust, is the implicit and explicit "so what". "Never again" is the "so what" when it comes to Holocaust education as I see it: it's a campaign to promote young people questioning predetermined societal indoctrinations, to show the significance of not just tolerance but true harmonious coexistence, and to show the necessity of admission of guilt, seeking reparations to injustices, and the strive to always be learning from mistakes.
We've done the first part of this THOROUGHLY here: we've recognized an injustice. But thanks to social media, global news coverage (both grassroots and as delivered through people with hidden or visible agendas), that's the easy part. And maybe this frustrates me so much is because I can't figure out the "so what", but it seems to me that this is the crucial next step, and I see it as a waste of energy to focus on something known, when we know it only catalyzes hatred and not progress (not to mention the redundancy, because this is not news anymore: this is reality for anyone in the region).
Believe me, I want to visit the one secular state of whatever-the-fuck-you-want-to-call-Israel-and-Palestine-together one day. It's that link of logic between "Israelis are cruelly dehumanizing Palestinians and stripping them of critical human rights" and the future dream of "Israelis and Palestinians live harmoniously together with equal rights and opportunities and no concern of sectarian affiliations" that's missing, and we need to seek those actions that will bring about this harmony.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
Awareness is the first step. Nothing wrong with educating everyone.benjs said:
Remind people of atrocities (reasonably leading to anger), offer no valuable input or potential solutions (leaving the anger in peoples' minds), but have a coke and smile.JC29856 said:Kill thousands, destroy infrastructure, cut off boarder entry for food and rebuilding supplies but have a coke and a smile.
Again, I struggle comprehending how this campaign of post after post of atrocity after atrocity can lead to anything positive for the people whose cause you're attempting to fight for. Do tell me how increased anger and aggression from the people outside of Israel towards Israel and Israelis can lead to change within Israel and Israeli mentalities (the people in the power position). If you can give me a good answer, I'll have no need to keep repeating myself and I'll gladly join you in this campaign.
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And just because some are well versed on the conflict doesn't mean everyone is. Some want to educate and others want to debate solutions, nothing wrong with either.0
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And fucken Israel STILL GETS TO BUILD ON FUCKEN LAND THATS NOT THEIRS! Wtf, where are they getting their permits to build on PALESTINIAN land that's NOT theirs.JC29856 said:The right to defend itself
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=7373900 -
They have the right to exist, they have the right to defend themselves against rockets and firebombs. Everybody knows this!badbrains said:
And fucken Israel STILL GETS TO BUILD ON FUCKEN LAND THATS NOT THEIRS! Wtf, where are they getting their permits to build on PALESTINIAN land that's NOT theirs.JC29856 said:The right to defend itself
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=7373900
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