Why did they boo Eddie?

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Comments

  • unsungunsung Posts: 8,830
    unsung said:
    Shit gets old, play music.
    When you don't want to hear it, eh?

    I like when a band has principles and asserts them. I loved when Waters slammed Trump. So did everyone else except for the few Cletuses that 'were offended' lol.

    In answer to the question: there were some people at the show that loved their war-mongering fraud of a president. And when the band played this song as a tribute which mocked him... they didn't like that. They were likely also bitter that the band doesn't have a lot of songs praising Jesus which made them additionally mad. Some had just found out that Glorified G wasn't a song about Jesus and having a relationship with him... they were really steamed (especially when they found out what the song was really about).
    Nah, if I want politics I go to a political event, and I don't need to see Ron Paul on guitar.
  • tbergstbergs Posts: 4,161
    mace1229 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JC29856 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JC29856 said:


    I thought the majority of PJ fans are democrats?
    awesome stuff! when was that?
    uniondale '03.  (Nassau coliseum)
    when you say it turned ugly you mean, like fights broke out or throwing things at the band?
    The crowd turned on him real quick.  People were screaming "fuck you" and giving him the finger.  It got really tense in my section; it felt like a fight could break out in any moment.  The walk out was interesting too, people yelling how Ed was a douche, he should stick to music and just play rock n roll, people paid for music not politics...others defended him.  It was a really decisive moment for the band and the country.

    This 2003 tour was definitely crazy; the most upset I ever was at a pearl jam show was at Hershey not at Uniondale.  Ed said some pretty fucked up shit that night.
    okay. Now you have to explain. What did he say that night?
    Hershey rant


    It's a hopeless situation...
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828
    tbergs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JC29856 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JC29856 said:


    I thought the majority of PJ fans are democrats?
    awesome stuff! when was that?
    uniondale '03.  (Nassau coliseum)
    when you say it turned ugly you mean, like fights broke out or throwing things at the band?
    The crowd turned on him real quick.  People were screaming "fuck you" and giving him the finger.  It got really tense in my section; it felt like a fight could break out in any moment.  The walk out was interesting too, people yelling how Ed was a douche, he should stick to music and just play rock n roll, people paid for music not politics...others defended him.  It was a really decisive moment for the band and the country.

    This 2003 tour was definitely crazy; the most upset I ever was at a pearl jam show was at Hershey not at Uniondale.  Ed said some pretty fucked up shit that night.
    Agreed on Hershey. When I heard that boot, I couldn't believe what he said to that female. I did like the comment about "Fuck this fucking chocolate factory."
    yeah that comment was funny as hell.  God that show was just awful.  The night before was boston 3 so you could tell the band was exhausted and didn't want to be there.
    Mace:  some girl kept flashing her boobs to ed and he want on a tangent on how they looked like little mosquito bites and that he likes to shit on little girls head (I'm very much paraphrasing).  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • unsungunsung Posts: 8,830
    I think that definition changes over time, geez we still have police worshippers on these very forums.  It isn't going away.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 23,749
    We need a new "Riot Act".
    "Pretty cookie heart squares all around, hey!"
    -Smile
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.



  • tbergstbergs Posts: 4,161
    mcgruff10 said:
    tbergs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JC29856 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JC29856 said:


    I thought the majority of PJ fans are democrats?
    awesome stuff! when was that?
    uniondale '03.  (Nassau coliseum)
    when you say it turned ugly you mean, like fights broke out or throwing things at the band?
    The crowd turned on him real quick.  People were screaming "fuck you" and giving him the finger.  It got really tense in my section; it felt like a fight could break out in any moment.  The walk out was interesting too, people yelling how Ed was a douche, he should stick to music and just play rock n roll, people paid for music not politics...others defended him.  It was a really decisive moment for the band and the country.

    This 2003 tour was definitely crazy; the most upset I ever was at a pearl jam show was at Hershey not at Uniondale.  Ed said some pretty fucked up shit that night.
    Agreed on Hershey. When I heard that boot, I couldn't believe what he said to that female. I did like the comment about "Fuck this fucking chocolate factory."
    yeah that comment was funny as hell.  God that show was just awful.  The night before was boston 3 so you could tell the band was exhausted and didn't want to be there.
    Mace:  some girl kept flashing her boobs to ed and he want on a tangent on how they looked like little mosquito bites and that he likes to shit on little girls head (I'm very much paraphrasing).  
    You know it's bad when the only reason you remember the show is because of those comments and not the songs they played. I did think they started that show with one of my favorite lists of song selections to date though (Of the Girl, Breakerfall, Hail Hail, Save You, Grievance, Dissident, Immortality). Probably why I listened to it so much back in the day.
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,037
    edited January 9
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Why does "a lot" indicate a majority of Americans? That is a completely nonsensical assessment. "Most" would indicate a majority, not a lot. Again, calm down man. You just had a pretty major knee jerk reaction to a pretty mild comment.

    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828
    edited January 9
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Why does "a lot" indicate a majority of Americans? That is a completely nonsensical assessment. "Most" would indicate a majority, not a lot. Again, calm down man. You just had a pretty major knee jerk reaction to a pretty mild comment.

    I have five kids (which is a lot) so when I am at work I am pretty damn calm. I don't think I had a knee jerk reaction at all, I just asked how one can judge what American patriotism really is (especially from an outsiders point of view).
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 6,722
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Unfortunately, for a lot of people patriotism means conforming to a certain way of thinking and behaving. This was even more the case post 9/11 and the pressure around supporting Bush and the wars. 
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 2,452
    unsung said:
    Shit gets old, play music.
    When you don't want to hear it, eh?

    I like when a band has principles and asserts them. I loved when Waters slammed Trump. So did everyone else except for the few Cletuses that 'were offended' lol.

    In answer to the question: there were some people at the show that loved their war-mongering fraud of a president. And when the band played this song as a tribute which mocked him... they didn't like that. They were likely also bitter that the band doesn't have a lot of songs praising Jesus which made them additionally mad. Some had just found out that Glorified G wasn't a song about Jesus and having a relationship with him... they were really steamed (especially when they found out what the song was really about).
    HAHA! People seriously thought that's what Glorified G was about? Thats funny.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,037
    edited January 9
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Why does "a lot" indicate a majority of Americans? That is a completely nonsensical assessment. "Most" would indicate a majority, not a lot. Again, calm down man. You just had a pretty major knee jerk reaction to a pretty mild comment.

    I have five kids (which is a lot) so when I am at work I am pretty damn calm. I don't think I had a knee jerk reaction at all, I just asked how one can judge what American patriotism really is (especially from an outsiders point of view).
    Through observation. Surely you're not denying that plenty of Americans, especially in the few years following 9/11, but also all the time, tend to treat patriotism as a thing expressed by supporting America and its POTUS no matter what. Or that kneeling during the national anthem is an assault on American values, or that freedom of speech is only okay until it is speech about what's wrong with America, shit like that. You know as well as any of us that there are a lot of Americans who think that way, come on. Blind patriotism is far from uncommon in your country - one doesn't have to be a genius to see that, even from afar. Yeah, once you said "are you telling me (my cousin" doesn't know what patriotism is?" and claimed that "a lot" means a majority, it became a knee jerk reaction.
    As for Bu$hleaguer... that is one fucking apt song with an awesomely cool chorus. I dig it.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,288
    edited January 9
    ahhh the patriotism "versus" nationalism debate! talk about open and honest dialogue!
    “I used to spend a lot of time in this room...back when it was a shit hole and I was a shit head.”
    big·otˈbiɡət/ noun: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
    big·ot·ryˈbiɡətrē/ noun: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,288
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Unfortunately, for a lot of people patriotism means conforming to a certain way of thinking and behaving. This was even more the case post 9/11 and the pressure around supporting Bush and the wars. 
    lets ask google!
    “I used to spend a lot of time in this room...back when it was a shit hole and I was a shit head.”
    big·otˈbiɡət/ noun: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
    big·ot·ryˈbiɡətrē/ noun: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

  • JC29856JC29856 Posts: 9,288
    tbergs said:
    mace1229 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JC29856 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    JC29856 said:


    I thought the majority of PJ fans are democrats?
    awesome stuff! when was that?
    uniondale '03.  (Nassau coliseum)
    when you say it turned ugly you mean, like fights broke out or throwing things at the band?
    The crowd turned on him real quick.  People were screaming "fuck you" and giving him the finger.  It got really tense in my section; it felt like a fight could break out in any moment.  The walk out was interesting too, people yelling how Ed was a douche, he should stick to music and just play rock n roll, people paid for music not politics...others defended him.  It was a really decisive moment for the band and the country.

    This 2003 tour was definitely crazy; the most upset I ever was at a pearl jam show was at Hershey not at Uniondale.  Ed said some pretty fucked up shit that night.
    okay. Now you have to explain. What did he say that night?
    Hershey rant


    well that explains why people are so easily offended. was that supposed to be political? equal to bombs killing brown "folks"?
    “I used to spend a lot of time in this room...back when it was a shit hole and I was a shit head.”
    big·otˈbiɡət/ noun: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
    big·ot·ryˈbiɡətrē/ noun: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Why does "a lot" indicate a majority of Americans? That is a completely nonsensical assessment. "Most" would indicate a majority, not a lot. Again, calm down man. You just had a pretty major knee jerk reaction to a pretty mild comment.

    I have five kids (which is a lot) so when I am at work I am pretty damn calm. I don't think I had a knee jerk reaction at all, I just asked how one can judge what American patriotism really is (especially from an outsiders point of view).
    Through observation. Surely you're not denying that plenty of Americans, especially in the few years following 9/11, but also all the time, tend to treat patriotism as a thing expressed by supporting America and its POTUS no matter what. Or that kneeling during the national anthem is an assault on American values, or that freedom of speech is only okay until it is speech about what's wrong with America, shit like that. You know as well as any of us that there are a lot of Americans who think that way, come on. Blind patriotism is far from uncommon in your country - one doesn't have to be a genius to see that, even from afar. Yeah, once you said "are you telling me (my cousin" doesn't know what patriotism is?" and claimed that "a lot" means a majority, it became a knee jerk reaction.
    As for Bu$hleaguer... that is one fucking apt song with an awesomely cool chorus. I dig it.
    There are two sides to every coin.  Some people call it patriotism and others see it as blind patriotism; who's to say who is right?  It all depends on your opinion on the issue at hand.  Ed thought he was a patriot at Uniondale and the people defending the President thought they were the patriot; again, who is right?

    And again, I definitely didn't think I had a knee jerk reaction.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,037
    edited January 9
    Well, considering that Eddie had every right in the world to express his very valid and even verifiable opinion through song under the Constitution, and considering how much damage Bush's war did to America and the world, and considering how it all started on a bed of lies, I think it is actually fairly easy to say who was right in this particular case. ;)
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828
    edited January 9
    PJ_Soul said:
    Well, considering that Eddie had every right in the world to express his very valid and even verifiable opinion through song under the Constitution, and considering how much damage Bush's war did to America and the world, and considering how it all started on a bed of lies, I think it is actually fairly easy to say who was right in this particular case. ;)
    I think everyone agrees the war in Afghanistan was warranted however Iraq was always the one that people argued about. Some people thought we didn't belong there and others thought it was better to fight the terrorists five thousand miles away instead of here while taking out a pretty horrible leader. 
    I'm not sure how Bush's war did damage to the world but the overall lesson is, don't mess with the United States.  ;)
    Post edited by mcgruff10 on
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 41,037
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Well, considering that Eddie had every right in the world to express his very valid and even verifiable opinion through song under the Constitution, and considering how much damage Bush's war did to America and the world, and considering how it all started on a bed of lies, I think it is actually fairly easy to say who was right in this particular case. ;)
    I think everyone agrees the war in Afghanistan was warranted however Iraq was always the one that people argued about. Some people thought we didn't belong there and others thought it was better to fight the terrorists five thousand miles away instead of here while taking out a pretty horrible leader. 
    Both Eddie and W were protected under the  constitutional to either go to war or record a song. 
    What? You're comparing going to war with recording or singing a song? Sorry, that just doesn't compute in this context. The point is that many of the misguided "patriots" at that show wanted to shut Eddie up, shut him down, and that does not represent patriotism in America if the Constitution and the belief in freedom has anything to do with it, which it does.
    As for everyone agreeing the war in Afghanistan was warranted... No, I don't think that's the case. I think there are plenty of people who would not agree with that. I personally did agree with it at the time, but in retrospect feel that it was a terrible mistake and literally EVERYTHING should have been done differently.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Well, considering that Eddie had every right in the world to express his very valid and even verifiable opinion through song under the Constitution, and considering how much damage Bush's war did to America and the world, and considering how it all started on a bed of lies, I think it is actually fairly easy to say who was right in this particular case. ;)
    I think everyone agrees the war in Afghanistan was warranted however Iraq was always the one that people argued about. Some people thought we didn't belong there and others thought it was better to fight the terrorists five thousand miles away instead of here while taking out a pretty horrible leader. 
    Both Eddie and W were protected under the  constitutional to either go to war or record a song. 
    What? You're comparing going to war with recording or singing a song? Sorry, that just doesn't compute in this context. The point is that many of the misguided "patriots" at that show wanted to shut Eddie up, shut him down, and that does not represent patriotism in America if the Constitution and the belief in freedom has anything to do with it, which it does.
    As for everyone agreeing the war in Afghanistan was warranted... No, I don't think that's the case. I think there are plenty of people who would not agree with that. I personally did agree with it at the time, but in retrospect feel that it was a terrible mistake and literally EVERYTHING should have been done differently.
    so four planes were hijacked and three were flown into buildings killings thousands and you wanted to respond how exactly?

    Yes going to war and singing a song are both covered under the Constitution.
    Why are the people who were booing Eddie "misguided patriots"?  They had a belief and didn't like Ed's opinion. They showed their disapproval by booing and even yelling out "play rock n'roll!!"; Ed even commented how this was good open discussion (or something like that).  I don't recall anybody leaving the show but I do know that songs were omitted from the set list which resulted in the show ending early. So if anything, Ed couldn't handle the criticism, not the other way around.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 6,722
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Why does "a lot" indicate a majority of Americans? That is a completely nonsensical assessment. "Most" would indicate a majority, not a lot. Again, calm down man. You just had a pretty major knee jerk reaction to a pretty mild comment.

    I have five kids (which is a lot) so when I am at work I am pretty damn calm. I don't think I had a knee jerk reaction at all, I just asked how one can judge what American patriotism really is (especially from an outsiders point of view).
    Through observation. Surely you're not denying that plenty of Americans, especially in the few years following 9/11, but also all the time, tend to treat patriotism as a thing expressed by supporting America and its POTUS no matter what. Or that kneeling during the national anthem is an assault on American values, or that freedom of speech is only okay until it is speech about what's wrong with America, shit like that. You know as well as any of us that there are a lot of Americans who think that way, come on. Blind patriotism is far from uncommon in your country - one doesn't have to be a genius to see that, even from afar. Yeah, once you said "are you telling me (my cousin" doesn't know what patriotism is?" and claimed that "a lot" means a majority, it became a knee jerk reaction.
    As for Bu$hleaguer... that is one fucking apt song with an awesomely cool chorus. I dig it.
    There are two sides to every coin.  Some people call it patriotism and others see it as blind patriotism; who's to say who is right?  It all depends on your opinion on the issue at hand.  Ed thought he was a patriot at Uniondale and the people defending the President thought they were the patriot; again, who is right?

    And again, I definitely didn't think I had a knee jerk reaction.  
    It’s more than just an opinion. It’s an opinion with facts being used to support it. Call it an informed opinion. People are actually wrong about things. In this case if you supported bush and the Iraq war, I have no problem saying you’re wrong. 

    Take trump currently as an example. If someone supports trump and think he’s a good president, that’s their opinion, but they will have almost zero factual evidence to support that opinion. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 14,537
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Well, considering that Eddie had every right in the world to express his very valid and even verifiable opinion through song under the Constitution, and considering how much damage Bush's war did to America and the world, and considering how it all started on a bed of lies, I think it is actually fairly easy to say who was right in this particular case. ;)
    I think everyone agrees the war in Afghanistan was warranted however Iraq was always the one that people argued about. Some people thought we didn't belong there and others thought it was better to fight the terrorists five thousand miles away instead of here while taking out a pretty horrible leader. 
    I'm not sure how Bush's war did damage to the world but the overall lesson is, don't mess with the United States.  ;)
    some argue it emboldened those who created ISIS. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 14,537
    because being against a president when the majority thought his response to 9/11 was the correct course, wasn't a popular position. 
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, AustraliaPosts: 12,324
    Wow 49 notifications because of this thread.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 2,452
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Well, considering that Eddie had every right in the world to express his very valid and even verifiable opinion through song under the Constitution, and considering how much damage Bush's war did to America and the world, and considering how it all started on a bed of lies, I think it is actually fairly easy to say who was right in this particular case. ;)
    I think everyone agrees the war in Afghanistan was warranted however Iraq was always the one that people argued about. Some people thought we didn't belong there and others thought it was better to fight the terrorists five thousand miles away instead of here while taking out a pretty horrible leader. 
    I'm not sure how Bush's war did damage to the world but the overall lesson is, don't mess with the United States.  ;)
    It's been 15 years so my memory isn't perfect. Correct me on what I get wrong.
    I agree with the Afgahn war, I don't think you could find 2 people in the whole country who didn't want to go to water after 9/11.
    What my memory isn't clear on is the Iraq war. The claims of WMD turned out to not be true I agree. What I don't remember is why was that Bush's fault? Wasn't it just bad info? Didn't he go to war thinking there was WMDs, and his department had bad intel?
    And I personally don't blame it all on bad intel. Wasn't the UN trying to do an inspection and they were denied? Therefore even further assuming their [bad] intel was accurate? This could have been avoided if Iraq cooperated with the UN for a WMD inspection.
    Wasn't Saddam a tyrant who murdered thousands, even tens or hundreds of thousands of his own people for political reasons? It didn't seem like a stretch that he could have WMDs he was willing to use, and to not cooperate with an inspection would all but confirm that to me. I can;t recall any evidence that this WMD thing was made up for the sole purpose to pursue a war in Iraq, possibly further his father's legacy. There's a difference between bad intel and Iraq refusing to cooperate, and forging fake evidence to start a war.
    I don't think Bush was a great president. But it just seems like history is writing him down to be a lot worse than he was, as some sort of war hungry modern-day tyrant who intentionally started a war to have his name in history, or revenge his father, depending on who you ask.
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Well, considering that Eddie had every right in the world to express his very valid and even verifiable opinion through song under the Constitution, and considering how much damage Bush's war did to America and the world, and considering how it all started on a bed of lies, I think it is actually fairly easy to say who was right in this particular case. ;)
    I think everyone agrees the war in Afghanistan was warranted however Iraq was always the one that people argued about. Some people thought we didn't belong there and others thought it was better to fight the terrorists five thousand miles away instead of here while taking out a pretty horrible leader. 
    I'm not sure how Bush's war did damage to the world but the overall lesson is, don't mess with the United States.  ;)
    some argue it emboldened those who created ISIS. 
    Yeah absolutely 100% correct.  But didn't ISIS form while they were all in jail?  So basically the caught the bad guys and created some bad shit behind bars.  I can't say we are 100% to be blamed for that one.  I mean what else were we supposed to do?  (and please correct me if I am wrong.)
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 6,722
    mace1229 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    Well, considering that Eddie had every right in the world to express his very valid and even verifiable opinion through song under the Constitution, and considering how much damage Bush's war did to America and the world, and considering how it all started on a bed of lies, I think it is actually fairly easy to say who was right in this particular case. ;)
    I think everyone agrees the war in Afghanistan was warranted however Iraq was always the one that people argued about. Some people thought we didn't belong there and others thought it was better to fight the terrorists five thousand miles away instead of here while taking out a pretty horrible leader. 
    I'm not sure how Bush's war did damage to the world but the overall lesson is, don't mess with the United States.  ;)
    It's been 15 years so my memory isn't perfect. Correct me on what I get wrong.
    I agree with the Afgahn war, I don't think you could find 2 people in the whole country who didn't want to go to water after 9/11.
    What my memory isn't clear on is the Iraq war. The claims of WMD turned out to not be true I agree. What I don't remember is why was that Bush's fault? Wasn't it just bad info? Didn't he go to war thinking there was WMDs, and his department had bad intel?
    And I personally don't blame it all on bad intel. Wasn't the UN trying to do an inspection and they were denied? Therefore even further assuming their [bad] intel was accurate? This could have been avoided if Iraq cooperated with the UN for a WMD inspection.
    Wasn't Saddam a tyrant who murdered thousands, even tens or hundreds of thousands of his own people for political reasons? It didn't seem like a stretch that he could have WMDs he was willing to use, and to not cooperate with an inspection would all but confirm that to me. I can;t recall any evidence that this WMD thing was made up for the sole purpose to pursue a war in Iraq, possibly further his father's legacy. There's a difference between bad intel and Iraq refusing to cooperate, and forging fake evidence to start a war.
    I don't think Bush was a great president. But it just seems like history is writing him down to be a lot worse than he was, as some sort of war hungry modern-day tyrant who intentionally started a war to have his name in history, or revenge his father, depending on who you ask.
    On 9/12 bush and co decided to move ahead with a war against Iraq (who had nothing to do with 9/11). It takes a certain depraved and sick person to use that as an opportunity to manipulate an entire nation to invade a country unprovoked and kill thousands. 

    And the “his own people” line is also part of the manipulation done to make it sound like it was similar to the president gassing Floridians. Also, the “yellow cake uranium” was a lie because they knew it came from bad intel. 

    If anything, Bush jr. has skated off into the sunset very comfortably and gets a higher level of respect than he should. 
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828

    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Why does "a lot" indicate a majority of Americans? That is a completely nonsensical assessment. "Most" would indicate a majority, not a lot. Again, calm down man. You just had a pretty major knee jerk reaction to a pretty mild comment.

    I have five kids (which is a lot) so when I am at work I am pretty damn calm. I don't think I had a knee jerk reaction at all, I just asked how one can judge what American patriotism really is (especially from an outsiders point of view).
    Through observation. Surely you're not denying that plenty of Americans, especially in the few years following 9/11, but also all the time, tend to treat patriotism as a thing expressed by supporting America and its POTUS no matter what. Or that kneeling during the national anthem is an assault on American values, or that freedom of speech is only okay until it is speech about what's wrong with America, shit like that. You know as well as any of us that there are a lot of Americans who think that way, come on. Blind patriotism is far from uncommon in your country - one doesn't have to be a genius to see that, even from afar. Yeah, once you said "are you telling me (my cousin" doesn't know what patriotism is?" and claimed that "a lot" means a majority, it became a knee jerk reaction.
    As for Bu$hleaguer... that is one fucking apt song with an awesomely cool chorus. I dig it.
    There are two sides to every coin.  Some people call it patriotism and others see it as blind patriotism; who's to say who is right?  It all depends on your opinion on the issue at hand.  Ed thought he was a patriot at Uniondale and the people defending the President thought they were the patriot; again, who is right?

    And again, I definitely didn't think I had a knee jerk reaction.  
    It’s more than just an opinion. It’s an opinion with facts being used to support it. Call it an informed opinion. People are actually wrong about things. In this case if you supported bush and the Iraq war, I have no problem saying you’re wrong. 

    Take trump currently as an example. If someone supports trump and think he’s a good president, that’s their opinion, but they will have almost zero factual evidence to support that opinion. 
    Again it's who you ask.  My cousin thought he was right in what he did.  My brother in law who fought in Afghanistan thought Iraq was the right course.  A lot of my friends were completely against Iraq but I seriously don't know anyone who thought Afghanistan was the wrong idea at the time.  Now 17 years later things have changed a little bit and I'll be the first person to say that our policy in Afghanistan needs to change.  
    I've always been 100% behind Afghanistan and half and half on Iraq.  I thought the reasons were somewhat sketchy but I did respect the U.S. to try and spread democracy in a non-democratic world and rid the world of Sadaam Hussein.  It was worth a shot especially when dealing with the time period.  I think Iraq could eventually be successful but Afghanistan will always be in the stone age.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 14,537
    mcgruff10 said:

    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Why does "a lot" indicate a majority of Americans? That is a completely nonsensical assessment. "Most" would indicate a majority, not a lot. Again, calm down man. You just had a pretty major knee jerk reaction to a pretty mild comment.

    I have five kids (which is a lot) so when I am at work I am pretty damn calm. I don't think I had a knee jerk reaction at all, I just asked how one can judge what American patriotism really is (especially from an outsiders point of view).
    Through observation. Surely you're not denying that plenty of Americans, especially in the few years following 9/11, but also all the time, tend to treat patriotism as a thing expressed by supporting America and its POTUS no matter what. Or that kneeling during the national anthem is an assault on American values, or that freedom of speech is only okay until it is speech about what's wrong with America, shit like that. You know as well as any of us that there are a lot of Americans who think that way, come on. Blind patriotism is far from uncommon in your country - one doesn't have to be a genius to see that, even from afar. Yeah, once you said "are you telling me (my cousin" doesn't know what patriotism is?" and claimed that "a lot" means a majority, it became a knee jerk reaction.
    As for Bu$hleaguer... that is one fucking apt song with an awesomely cool chorus. I dig it.
    There are two sides to every coin.  Some people call it patriotism and others see it as blind patriotism; who's to say who is right?  It all depends on your opinion on the issue at hand.  Ed thought he was a patriot at Uniondale and the people defending the President thought they were the patriot; again, who is right?

    And again, I definitely didn't think I had a knee jerk reaction.  
    It’s more than just an opinion. It’s an opinion with facts being used to support it. Call it an informed opinion. People are actually wrong about things. In this case if you supported bush and the Iraq war, I have no problem saying you’re wrong. 

    Take trump currently as an example. If someone supports trump and think he’s a good president, that’s their opinion, but they will have almost zero factual evidence to support that opinion. 
    Again it's who you ask.  My cousin thought he was right in what he did.  My brother in law who fought in Afghanistan thought Iraq was the right course.  A lot of my friends were completely against Iraq but I seriously don't know anyone who thought Afghanistan was the wrong idea at the time.  Now 17 years later things have changed a little bit and I'll be the first person to say that our policy in Afghanistan needs to change.  
    I've always been 100% behind Afghanistan and half and half on Iraq.  I thought the reasons were somewhat sketchy but I did respect the U.S. to try and spread democracy in a non-democratic world and rid the world of Sadaam Hussein.  It was worth a shot especially when dealing with the time period.  I think Iraq could eventually be successful but Afghanistan will always be in the stone age.  
    but what makes them believe iraq was the right course? even after wmd were never found, and bin laden had zero to do with iraq, why would that have been the right course? saddam was an asshole to his people, yes, but so are dozens of other dictators around the world that commit humanitarian atrocities, but they don't liberate those people. why? because african countries, for example, have nothing of value. they used 9/11 as an excuse to get iraq's resources, plain and simple. 
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 14,828
    mcgruff10 said:

    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    PJ_Soul said:
    They booed Eddie because U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A! ... A lot of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is.
    That's one hell of a generalization.  My cousin who was a two tour Iraqi vet was a huge pj fan and hated the fact that they released bush-leaguer.  You are telling me he doesn't know what patriotism is?  People have different definitions of what patriotism is, doesn't make less patriotic or wrong.  You just have a lot of different viewpoints in this country.  
    How is it a generalization when I said A LOT of Americans aren't clear on what patriotism really is? How come you think your cousin has to be one of them? It would have only been a generalization if I'd said that all Americans aren't clear on it. Calm down.
    I think it's a very big generalization when you say that a lot of americans (which would indicate a majority) aren't clean on what patriotism really is.  How could you even judge that?

    Why does "a lot" indicate a majority of Americans? That is a completely nonsensical assessment. "Most" would indicate a majority, not a lot. Again, calm down man. You just had a pretty major knee jerk reaction to a pretty mild comment.

    I have five kids (which is a lot) so when I am at work I am pretty damn calm. I don't think I had a knee jerk reaction at all, I just asked how one can judge what American patriotism really is (especially from an outsiders point of view).
    Through observation. Surely you're not denying that plenty of Americans, especially in the few years following 9/11, but also all the time, tend to treat patriotism as a thing expressed by supporting America and its POTUS no matter what. Or that kneeling during the national anthem is an assault on American values, or that freedom of speech is only okay until it is speech about what's wrong with America, shit like that. You know as well as any of us that there are a lot of Americans who think that way, come on. Blind patriotism is far from uncommon in your country - one doesn't have to be a genius to see that, even from afar. Yeah, once you said "are you telling me (my cousin" doesn't know what patriotism is?" and claimed that "a lot" means a majority, it became a knee jerk reaction.
    As for Bu$hleaguer... that is one fucking apt song with an awesomely cool chorus. I dig it.
    There are two sides to every coin.  Some people call it patriotism and others see it as blind patriotism; who's to say who is right?  It all depends on your opinion on the issue at hand.  Ed thought he was a patriot at Uniondale and the people defending the President thought they were the patriot; again, who is right?

    And again, I definitely didn't think I had a knee jerk reaction.  
    It’s more than just an opinion. It’s an opinion with facts being used to support it. Call it an informed opinion. People are actually wrong about things. In this case if you supported bush and the Iraq war, I have no problem saying you’re wrong. 

    Take trump currently as an example. If someone supports trump and think he’s a good president, that’s their opinion, but they will have almost zero factual evidence to support that opinion. 
    Again it's who you ask.  My cousin thought he was right in what he did.  My brother in law who fought in Afghanistan thought Iraq was the right course.  A lot of my friends were completely against Iraq but I seriously don't know anyone who thought Afghanistan was the wrong idea at the time.  Now 17 years later things have changed a little bit and I'll be the first person to say that our policy in Afghanistan needs to change.  
    I've always been 100% behind Afghanistan and half and half on Iraq.  I thought the reasons were somewhat sketchy but I did respect the U.S. to try and spread democracy in a non-democratic world and rid the world of Sadaam Hussein.  It was worth a shot especially when dealing with the time period.  I think Iraq could eventually be successful but Afghanistan will always be in the stone age.  
    but what makes them believe iraq was the right course? even after wmd were never found, and bin laden had zero to do with iraq, why would that have been the right course? saddam was an asshole to his people, yes, but so are dozens of other dictators around the world that commit humanitarian atrocities, but they don't liberate those people. why? because african countries, for example, have nothing of value. they used 9/11 as an excuse to get iraq's resources, plain and simple. 
    Oh I 1000000% agree with your last two sentences. 
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
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