Building seven always made me think. Something a little shady with that one for sure. Fyi: gulf of Tonkin was Vietnam, not ww2.
Thanks. Sorry for the mistake. I knew that but got it mixed up. See? I can admit when I am wrong.
And no, building seven was blocks from 1-2. Wasn't peppered with debre from 1-2. Other buildings that were actually smashed from 1-2 falling on them, still stood and didn't collapse into a pile.
Building seven always made me think. Something a little shady with that one for sure. Fyi: gulf of Tonkin was Vietnam, not ww2.
Thanks. Sorry for the mistake. I knew that but got it mixed up. See? I can admit when I am wrong.
And no, building seven was blocks from 1-2. Wasn't peppered with debre from 1-2. Other buildings that were actually smashed from 1-2 falling on them, still stood and didn't collapse into a pile.
Lol, no problem. Some people do say that fdr knew about Pearl harbor; he ignored all the warnings and we were then thrust into ww2.
Building seven always made me think. Something a little shady with that one for sure. Fyi: gulf of Tonkin was Vietnam, not ww2.
Thanks. Sorry for the mistake. I knew that but got it mixed up. See? I can admit when I am wrong.
And no, building seven was blocks from 1-2. Wasn't peppered with debre from 1-2. Other buildings that were actually smashed from 1-2 falling on them, still stood and didn't collapse into a pile.
Building seven always made me think. Something a little shady with that one for sure. Fyi: gulf of Tonkin was Vietnam, not ww2.
Thanks. Sorry for the mistake. I knew that but got it mixed up. See? I can admit when I am wrong.
And no, building seven was blocks from 1-2. Wasn't peppered with debre from 1-2. Other buildings that were actually smashed from 1-2 falling on them, still stood and didn't collapse into a pile.
So you made this thread whining about it instead of starting a thread that you wished was here.
Agreed. Instead of starting a new thread on a pj message board I taught 9/11 to 100 8th graders. Some crazy stories out there.
I'm always a bit fascinated and confused by the conspiracy theories. They're often very convincing but so are the rebuttals.
Maybe you know, did they ever manage to put together another Hellen Keller archives? I know there was talk about hoping people would come through with items, ephemera, and so forth that are still out there in order to put something together. Bummer that the main archives was lost (along with all the rest of course).
sorry bri i didn't explain myself to well on that one...my students had some crazy personal stories. one student's grandmother lost her leg in the pentagon attack. another student's mom worked on the 100th floor of the south tower...she missed work that day to get a sonogram to make sure her baby was ok (which in turn was the kid telling me the story). one student was named after a firefighter who died. etc etc.
Those are interesting stories, McG. I remember hearing a few others about people who missed work that day and were fortunate to survive. I think some of those stories fueled the conspiracy theories (not that I rule them all out 100%, but most are unlikely).
bri: very good article on building 7. after reading a few today I've come to the conclusion that fire was 100% responsible for building 7's collapse. and pj soul is absolutely correct, lots of people would have had to know about it being rigged for demolition. anyway, here's the article: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/design/a3524/4278874/
Pretty telling that not one post or thread yesterday took time to reflect on the tragedy of 9/11 and the lives lost. Lots of guns,Iran,Stupid Republicans and Refugee threads.But we can't even come together for a shout out to those who were our brothers and sisters who lost lives that day.At least not on here.Sad stuff.
I remember.And my heart and thoughts still go out to the families affected still.
Where was your thread yesterday? I would love to read it.
Since it's being brought up, can we discuss how no other steel building in history has ever collapsed due to fire?
How about how building seven fell into a nice little pile in the same way a controlled demolition does? How about the fact that no plane hit building seven. How did fires start?
I'm open for any of these discussions
What other 2 buildings have ever been hit by a 747.at 500 mph in the top floors? How should the buildings have fallen? Kind of hard to compare those buildings collapsing when it's never happened before. Those buildings fell how they should have fallen given the damage. All of your conspiracy theories have been proven wrong a long time ago.
Proven wrong by what/whom? The commission report and popular mechanics? meh.... If you take either of those sources as an explanation for all of the anomalies that day, you are as much a conspiracy theorist as anyone presenting any other opinions. I personally don't try to come up with my own comprehensive version of what happened, but I sure as fuck don't believe the government's version. I think the motives were there (which you simplistically alluded to already), and there are people much more qualified than myself to ask the right questions: organizations of architects and engineers, pilots, and victim's families still insisting the commission report and popular mechanics article leave way too many questions unanswered, half-answered, or completely ignored.
To me, collapse of all three buildings in such a similar manner seems unlikely simply because of how uniformly they fell. A controlled demo is unlikely, but I think the pancake theory is just as unlikely....does the official narrative use the pancake theory for WTC7 as well? The one that really bugs me tho, is the pentagon....ask any commercial pilot if a 757 flown by a guy who can't fly a cessna could have pulled off that flight path and they'll laugh....not to mention that the speed the plane made the approach banks would have completely destroyed the plane before it got to it's target. Simulator studies were done to see if other pilots could mimic the approach and it was shown to be virtually impossible. The damage is totally inconsistent with being hit by a plane as well. This is such a tough topic, because there is soooo much disinformation out there, on both sides of the official/alternative stories, that asking simple questions of the official side can get you lumped in with some real crackpots....but that really works to the government's favour if there is any complicity there, doesn't it? I'm about halfway through this new-ish documentary.... it's the most comprehensive one I've seen. It goes right after the commission report, popular mechanics, and the theories of people who make a living as 'debunkers'.....as far as I've been thru this, they haven't speculated much on alternative theories, but they do ask questions that lead in that direction (which is how this should be handled since to me, the objective is to get a proper, independent investigation into ALL of the events that day, not just the ones decided on by a stonewalled government inquiry). Incredibly detailed analysis....5 hours
FWIW, it's literally impossible to prepare buildings for controlled demolition without all the people working in the buildings knowing about it.
And does that mean that planes DIDN'T plow into two buildings and the Pentagon, and that all of those innocents didn't lose their lives in the process?
I get conspiracy theories and other trains of thought - part of what makes this delightful merry-go-round - but just can't get my head around that mindset, not to mention flouting other evidence.
I agree rr. I did not want to start a thread, but thought the same thing. I watched the same shows on the history channel and discovery. And I still get as angry today as I did all those years ago. And every year, the part that vets me the angriest is when the fireman start talking about the loud thuds they were hearing as they were walking into the lobbies of the buildings. Knowing those people had to do that just makes me sick to my stomach, 14 years later.
Huge props to the first responders that day. This is one instance in which I have zero reservations in calling someone a hero.
Pretty telling that not one post or thread yesterday took time to reflect on the tragedy of 9/11 and the lives lost. Lots of guns,Iran,Stupid Republicans and Refugee threads.But we can't even come together for a shout out to those who were our brothers and sisters who lost lives that day.At least not on here.Sad stuff.
I remember.And my heart and thoughts still go out to the families affected still.
Where was your thread yesterday? I would love to read it.
Since it's being brought up, can we discuss how no other steel building in history has ever collapsed due to fire?
How about how building seven fell into a nice little pile in the same way a controlled demolition does? How about the fact that no plane hit building seven. How did fires start?
I'm open for any of these discussions
What other 2 buildings have ever been hit by a 747.at 500 mph in the top floors? How should the buildings have fallen? Kind of hard to compare those buildings collapsing when it's never happened before. Those buildings fell how they should have fallen given the damage. All of your conspiracy theories have been proven wrong a long time ago.
Proven wrong by what/whom? The commission report and popular mechanics? meh.... If you take either of those sources as an explanation for all of the anomalies that day, you are as much a conspiracy theorist as anyone presenting any other opinions. I personally don't try to come up with my own comprehensive version of what happened, but I sure as fuck don't believe the government's version. I think the motives were there (which you simplistically alluded to already), and there are people much more qualified than myself to ask the right questions: organizations of architects and engineers, pilots, and victim's families still insisting the commission report and popular mechanics article leave way too many questions unanswered, half-answered, or completely ignored.
To me, collapse of all three buildings in such a similar manner seems unlikely simply because of how uniformly they fell. A controlled demo is unlikely, but I think the pancake theory is just as unlikely....does the official narrative use the pancake theory for WTC7 as well? The one that really bugs me tho, is the pentagon....ask any commercial pilot if a 757 flown by a guy who can't fly a cessna could have pulled off that flight path and they'll laugh....not to mention that the speed the plane made the approach banks would have completely destroyed the plane before it got to it's target. Simulator studies were done to see if other pilots could mimic the approach and it was shown to be virtually impossible. The damage is totally inconsistent with being hit by a plane as well. This is such a tough topic, because there is soooo much disinformation out there, on both sides of the official/alternative stories, that asking simple questions of the official side can get you lumped in with some real crackpots....but that really works to the government's favour if there is any complicity there, doesn't it? I'm about halfway through this new-ish documentary.... it's the most comprehensive one I've seen. It goes right after the commission report, popular mechanics, and the theories of people who make a living as 'debunkers'.....as far as I've been thru this, they haven't speculated much on alternative theories, but they do ask questions that lead in that direction (which is how this should be handled since to me, the objective is to get a proper, independent investigation into ALL of the events that day, not just the ones decided on by a stonewalled government inquiry). Incredibly detailed analysis....5 hours
Which questions about the any of the 3 buildings collapses are unanswered? I don't know how else a building could fall given the damage. I'm not a structural engineer, but I don't see how else it could've went down.
The Pentagon is a different story. But until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm going to believe a plane flew into the building. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere that would incdicate a missile hitting that building. Plus, I don't believe that many people can keep their mouths shut for that ling in it was a conspiracy.
Pretty telling that not one post or thread yesterday took time to reflect on the tragedy of 9/11 and the lives lost. Lots of guns,Iran,Stupid Republicans and Refugee threads.But we can't even come together for a shout out to those who were our brothers and sisters who lost lives that day.At least not on here.Sad stuff.
I remember.And my heart and thoughts still go out to the families affected still.
Where was your thread yesterday? I would love to read it.
Since it's being brought up, can we discuss how no other steel building in history has ever collapsed due to fire?
How about how building seven fell into a nice little pile in the same way a controlled demolition does? How about the fact that no plane hit building seven. How did fires start?
I'm open for any of these discussions
What other 2 buildings have ever been hit by a 747.at 500 mph in the top floors? How should the buildings have fallen? Kind of hard to compare those buildings collapsing when it's never happened before. Those buildings fell how they should have fallen given the damage. All of your conspiracy theories have been proven wrong a long time ago.
I was talking about building seven only. No plane hit building seven. Where did I mention buildings 1-2? I didn't.
And to answer your "who" it was already answered above me, but it was the cia and government. There is so much evidence out there, I won't go into everything. Larry Silverstein tried and was denied a permit to destroy the wtc. The reason why is because to demolish those buildings it would cause significant structural damage to buildings in the surround area. They wanted to demolish them because the steel was crodeing in the same way the Statue of Liberty does. Remember the renovation about a decade ago?
The government needed a "Pearl harbor style attack" for the "American people to accept a war in Iraq and Afghanistan" this was written in the "project for a new American century" written and distributed before 9/11. The government clearly said, they needed this. Much like the false flag attacks in the gulf of Tonkin to have the American public accept our entry into World War Two. This is open to the public and declassified information (gulf of Tonkin) so it is not unheard of for our government to run false flag operations on our own people.
When 9/11 happened, the entire world was up in arms. The entire "USA" was collectively saying to "bomb those towel beads back into the Stone Age" and the year of 2002 featured the patriots winning the super bowl, U2 giving a performance with all the victims name and huge American flag in the background. Wrestle mania in 2002 was full of American flags and USA chants. Hell, they broadcast the war for the world to see (albeit in the middle of the night)
I didn't speak on buildings 1-2. But isn't it odd how building seven fell in the exact same fashion as 1-2? That's because controlled demolition brought down ALL THREE buildings. Those charges weren't set that day. Meaning it was totally planned and staged.
What other steel buildings have fallen due to fire only? None. Except building seven.
I will not debate this further. In 50 years yhe history and truth will reflect what really happened. But as of now the American public would never think it's precious government would harm them.
This is the same government who sprayed mustard gas on the public as an experiment in 1987 (in the ny city subways) it's also the same government who tried to blow up the wtc in 1993 but only failed because the cia hired a mentally handicapped person (who makes a great patsy btw, same thing hitler did when the rightstag was burned) who parked the van with the explosives next to the wrong Collums in the basement. This info is also declassified and there is sworn documents from court where agents speak about hiring this person who detonated the bomb. It's all out there to read and learn for yourself.
But let's just continue to be naive. Ignorance is bliss right? If you choose to believe a nearly 100 story building just collapsed all by itself due to a fire on a few floors (only!) then you can continue doing so. But once I looked into it for myself I saw the truth. Hopefully you guys can too. Jesus would want us to wake others up the corruption right here in our homeland.
many, if not most, of us HAVE researched all angles extensively over the past 14 years. we just came to a different conclusion than you. it has zero to do with thinking the US government wouldn't harm its "precious citizens", or being naive.
Pretty telling that not one post or thread yesterday took time to reflect on the tragedy of 9/11 and the lives lost. Lots of guns,Iran,Stupid Republicans and Refugee threads.But we can't even come together for a shout out to those who were our brothers and sisters who lost lives that day.At least not on here.Sad stuff.
I remember.And my heart and thoughts still go out to the families affected still.
Where was your thread yesterday? I would love to read it.
Since it's being brought up, can we discuss how no other steel building in history has ever collapsed due to fire?
How about how building seven fell into a nice little pile in the same way a controlled demolition does? How about the fact that no plane hit building seven. How did fires start?
I'm open for any of these discussions
What other 2 buildings have ever been hit by a 747.at 500 mph in the top floors? How should the buildings have fallen? Kind of hard to compare those buildings collapsing when it's never happened before. Those buildings fell how they should have fallen given the damage. All of your conspiracy theories have been proven wrong a long time ago.
I was talking about building seven only. No plane hit building seven. Where did I mention buildings 1-2? I didn't.
And to answer your "who" it was already answered above me, but it was the cia and government. There is so much evidence out there, I won't go into everything. Larry Silverstein tried and was denied a permit to destroy the wtc. The reason why is because to demolish those buildings it would cause significant structural damage to buildings in the surround area. They wanted to demolish them because the steel was crodeing in the same way the Statue of Liberty does. Remember the renovation about a decade ago?
The government needed a "Pearl harbor style attack" for the "American people to accept a war in Iraq and Afghanistan" this was written in the "project for a new American century" written and distributed before 9/11. The government clearly said, they needed this. Much like the false flag attacks in the gulf of Tonkin to have the American public accept our entry into World War Two. This is open to the public and declassified information (gulf of Tonkin) so it is not unheard of for our government to run false flag operations on our own people.
When 9/11 happened, the entire world was up in arms. The entire "USA" was collectively saying to "bomb those towel beads back into the Stone Age" and the year of 2002 featured the patriots winning the super bowl, U2 giving a performance with all the victims name and huge American flag in the background. Wrestle mania in 2002 was full of American flags and USA chants. Hell, they broadcast the war for the world to see (albeit in the middle of the night)
I didn't speak on buildings 1-2. But isn't it odd how building seven fell in the exact same fashion as 1-2? That's because controlled demolition brought down ALL THREE buildings. Those charges weren't set that day. Meaning it was totally planned and staged.
What other steel buildings have fallen due to fire only? None. Except building seven.
I will not debate this further. In 50 years yhe history and truth will reflect what really happened. But as of now the American public would never think it's precious government would harm them.
This is the same government who sprayed mustard gas on the public as an experiment in 1987 (in the ny city subways) it's also the same government who tried to blow up the wtc in 1993 but only failed because the cia hired a mentally handicapped person (who makes a great patsy btw, same thing hitler did when the rightstag was burned) who parked the van with the explosives next to the wrong Collums in the basement. This info is also declassified and there is sworn documents from court where agents speak about hiring this person who detonated the bomb. It's all out there to read and learn for yourself.
But let's just continue to be naive. Ignorance is bliss right? If you choose to believe a nearly 100 story building just collapsed all by itself due to a fire on a few floors (only!) then you can continue doing so. But once I looked into it for myself I saw the truth. Hopefully you guys can too. Jesus would want us to wake others up the corruption right here in our homeland.
many, if not most, of us HAVE researched all angles extensively over the past 14 years. we just came to a different conclusion than you. it has zero to do with thinking the US government wouldn't harm its "precious citizens", or being naive.
I think Bill Maher is kind of a jackass but I do agree with him on his take of it. Is the US government above harming or deceiving it's own people? No, but it would take such a crazy amount of competence and a lot of people keeping their mouths shut to pull this off. Both of which our government doesn't seem capable of.
Pretty telling that not one post or thread yesterday took time to reflect on the tragedy of 9/11 and the lives lost. Lots of guns,Iran,Stupid Republicans and Refugee threads.But we can't even come together for a shout out to those who were our brothers and sisters who lost lives that day.At least not on here.Sad stuff.
I remember.And my heart and thoughts still go out to the families affected still.
Where was your thread yesterday? I would love to read it.
Since it's being brought up, can we discuss how no other steel building in history has ever collapsed due to fire?
How about how building seven fell into a nice little pile in the same way a controlled demolition does? How about the fact that no plane hit building seven. How did fires start?
I'm open for any of these discussions
What other 2 buildings have ever been hit by a 747.at 500 mph in the top floors? How should the buildings have fallen? Kind of hard to compare those buildings collapsing when it's never happened before. Those buildings fell how they should have fallen given the damage. All of your conspiracy theories have been proven wrong a long time ago.
I was talking about building seven only. No plane hit building seven. Where did I mention buildings 1-2? I didn't.
And to answer your "who" it was already answered above me, but it was the cia and government. There is so much evidence out there, I won't go into everything. Larry Silverstein tried and was denied a permit to destroy the wtc. The reason why is because to demolish those buildings it would cause significant structural damage to buildings in the surround area. They wanted to demolish them because the steel was crodeing in the same way the Statue of Liberty does. Remember the renovation about a decade ago?
The government needed a "Pearl harbor style attack" for the "American people to accept a war in Iraq and Afghanistan" this was written in the "project for a new American century" written and distributed before 9/11. The government clearly said, they needed this. Much like the false flag attacks in the gulf of Tonkin to have the American public accept our entry into World War Two. This is open to the public and declassified information (gulf of Tonkin) so it is not unheard of for our government to run false flag operations on our own people.
When 9/11 happened, the entire world was up in arms. The entire "USA" was collectively saying to "bomb those towel beads back into the Stone Age" and the year of 2002 featured the patriots winning the super bowl, U2 giving a performance with all the victims name and huge American flag in the background. Wrestle mania in 2002 was full of American flags and USA chants. Hell, they broadcast the war for the world to see (albeit in the middle of the night)
I didn't speak on buildings 1-2. But isn't it odd how building seven fell in the exact same fashion as 1-2? That's because controlled demolition brought down ALL THREE buildings. Those charges weren't set that day. Meaning it was totally planned and staged.
What other steel buildings have fallen due to fire only? None. Except building seven.
I will not debate this further. In 50 years yhe history and truth will reflect what really happened. But as of now the American public would never think it's precious government would harm them.
This is the same government who sprayed mustard gas on the public as an experiment in 1987 (in the ny city subways) it's also the same government who tried to blow up the wtc in 1993 but only failed because the cia hired a mentally handicapped person (who makes a great patsy btw, same thing hitler did when the rightstag was burned) who parked the van with the explosives next to the wrong Collums in the basement. This info is also declassified and there is sworn documents from court where agents speak about hiring this person who detonated the bomb. It's all out there to read and learn for yourself.
But let's just continue to be naive. Ignorance is bliss right? If you choose to believe a nearly 100 story building just collapsed all by itself due to a fire on a few floors (only!) then you can continue doing so. But once I looked into it for myself I saw the truth. Hopefully you guys can too. Jesus would want us to wake others up the corruption right here in our homeland.
many, if not most, of us HAVE researched all angles extensively over the past 14 years. we just came to a different conclusion than you. it has zero to do with thinking the US government wouldn't harm its "precious citizens", or being naive.
I think Bill Maher is kind of a jackass but I do agree with him on his take of it. Is the US government above harming or deceiving it's own people? No, but it would take such a crazy amount of competence and a lot of people keeping their mouths shut to pull this off. Both of which our government doesn't seem capable of.
While I don't think the US is above harming or deceiving it's own people in many ways, I do think they are above knowingly murdering 2,977 of it's own civilians.
I am not sure how anyone who truly thinks that the U.S purposefully killed almost 3,000 innocent citizens to is willing to live in this country. If I believed that our government killed that many people, including hundreds of public servants, I would be on the first plane out of this country and never come back.
Edit: And yes, having that many people keep their mouths shut for that long is beyond impossible.
Pretty telling that not one post or thread yesterday took time to reflect on the tragedy of 9/11 and the lives lost. Lots of guns,Iran,Stupid Republicans and Refugee threads.But we can't even come together for a shout out to those who were our brothers and sisters who lost lives that day.At least not on here.Sad stuff.
I remember.And my heart and thoughts still go out to the families affected still.
Where was your thread yesterday? I would love to read it.
Since it's being brought up, can we discuss how no other steel building in history has ever collapsed due to fire?
How about how building seven fell into a nice little pile in the same way a controlled demolition does? How about the fact that no plane hit building seven. How did fires start?
I'm open for any of these discussions
What other 2 buildings have ever been hit by a 747.at 500 mph in the top floors? How should the buildings have fallen? Kind of hard to compare those buildings collapsing when it's never happened before. Those buildings fell how they should have fallen given the damage. All of your conspiracy theories have been proven wrong a long time ago.
Proven wrong by what/whom? The commission report and popular mechanics? meh.... If you take either of those sources as an explanation for all of the anomalies that day, you are as much a conspiracy theorist as anyone presenting any other opinions. I personally don't try to come up with my own comprehensive version of what happened, but I sure as fuck don't believe the government's version. I think the motives were there (which you simplistically alluded to already), and there are people much more qualified than myself to ask the right questions: organizations of architects and engineers, pilots, and victim's families still insisting the commission report and popular mechanics article leave way too many questions unanswered, half-answered, or completely ignored.
To me, collapse of all three buildings in such a similar manner seems unlikely simply because of how uniformly they fell. A controlled demo is unlikely, but I think the pancake theory is just as unlikely....does the official narrative use the pancake theory for WTC7 as well? The one that really bugs me tho, is the pentagon....ask any commercial pilot if a 757 flown by a guy who can't fly a cessna could have pulled off that flight path and they'll laugh....not to mention that the speed the plane made the approach banks would have completely destroyed the plane before it got to it's target. Simulator studies were done to see if other pilots could mimic the approach and it was shown to be virtually impossible. The damage is totally inconsistent with being hit by a plane as well. This is such a tough topic, because there is soooo much disinformation out there, on both sides of the official/alternative stories, that asking simple questions of the official side can get you lumped in with some real crackpots....but that really works to the government's favour if there is any complicity there, doesn't it? I'm about halfway through this new-ish documentary.... it's the most comprehensive one I've seen. It goes right after the commission report, popular mechanics, and the theories of people who make a living as 'debunkers'.....as far as I've been thru this, they haven't speculated much on alternative theories, but they do ask questions that lead in that direction (which is how this should be handled since to me, the objective is to get a proper, independent investigation into ALL of the events that day, not just the ones decided on by a stonewalled government inquiry). Incredibly detailed analysis....5 hours
Which questions about the any of the 3 buildings collapses are unanswered? I don't know how else a building could fall given the damage. I'm not a structural engineer, but I don't see how else it could've went down.
The Pentagon is a different story. But until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm going to believe a plane flew into the building. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere that would incdicate a missile hitting that building. Plus, I don't believe that many people can keep their mouths shut for that ling in it was a conspiracy.
I'm not an engineer either (tho I do have 20+ years experience in construction / management, which has given me a basic understanding of structural engineering), but there are hundreds of them who disbelieve the official and widely accepted reports enough to join an organization and put their reputations on the line. To me, if it was structural damage and fire, the buildings couldn't have fallen for the most part into their own footprints; there would have been more toppling, more resistance in areas that weren't as heavily damaged or burned, and a much less uniform fall. To ask which questions haven't been answered puts your faith in the answers presented in the official story, which is folly imo... There may not be evidence of a missile hitting the pentagon (most of it is classified for some reason), but there isn't home-run evidence of a 757 hitting it either, so why believe the official story instead of keeping an open mind? There is just so much wrong with the official story, esp in regards to the pentagon. Circling the building to approach from the side that was empty and reinforced instead of hitting it on the side that would have caused more damage, and where Rumsfeld and other high ranking officials resided....hitting it 10 ft off the ground instead of from the top where it would have caused 1000x more damage....the lack of damage to the ground, the lack of damage from the tail and wings....it doesn't add up.
The people 'can't keep their mouth shut' fallback is convenient and (sorry, but) lazy....there were plenty of whistleblowers, many of whom have met untimely, suspicious deaths....have you ever actually looked into what you're saying? 6 out of 10 the commissioners have called the commission report a joke! Michael Cleland resigned, saying the report was being deliberately compromised by the president himself. The thing with the whole 'no whistleblower' theory is that there would be very, very few people with details on an entirely over-arching plan. Some people might have knowledge of wrongdoing on a small scale, but their complaints likely wouldn't get a whole lot of attention because it doesn't imply more than a few people who no one has ever heard of. The suspicious deaths were likely also a warning to other whistleblowers. Would you risk your life and the lives of your family to tell people that one small, specific part of the 9/11 report was incorrect, knowing it wouldn't really result in anything? The people with knowledge of a large scale conspiracy were probably in on it enough to be implicated by their own whistleblowing....not to mention all the stock transactions that precluded the attacks, and the hundreds of millions (or way more depending what you believe) in missing gold would work well as hush money (which accepting would also make you complicit even if you had a change of heart).
The whole conspiracy idea is absurd. It would be much easier to manufacture intelligence of WMD to justify going to war. Why would you need to blow up a building AND manufacture intelligence of WMD?
Just fucking ridiculous thinking.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I didn't say I believe the commission report word for word. I said I havent seen any evidence to contradict what I believe happened. The questions you asked about why hit this side instead if that side can easily be answered with "the pilot didn't know which side was reinforced or where Rumsfelds office was." I don't think it's lazy to think that many people couldn't keep their mouth shut for that long. It does not surprise me that Bush interfered with the commission. It makes him and his administration look like a bunch of baffoons.
As far as the buildings falling, why would they topple? If the planes hit near the 30th floor, I could understand that theory. But the fact that they were hit so high up, leads me to think that the way they fell, is exactly how it should have fell given the damage. Plus, people thunk that the fire melted the steel. It didn't. The fire weakened it so much that it couldn't support the weight above it. Causing the pancake effect. There simply weren't enough floors above the impact site to topple over.
The whole conspiracy idea is absurd. It would be much easier to manufacture intelligence of WMD to justify going to war. Why would you need to blow up a building AND manufacture intelligence of WMD?
Just fucking ridiculous thinking.
I don't think Colin Powell could have convinced the american people that a full scale invasion of Iraq was necessary....they royally fucked up the WMD claims as is....if they were the sole basis of an invasion, it would not have had public support. Even with both the attacks AND the WMD claims, there were the largest worldwide protests in history prior to attacking Iraq. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan were just the beginning of what that event meant for the MIC - look at the public opinions of the refugee crisis, the wars in Syria, Libya, et al....this is all sold to the public by evoking 9/11; the images, the anger, the opinions on islam burned into our psyches by the attacks are what tip the scales away from opposition to war, imho...
The whole conspiracy idea is absurd. It would be much easier to manufacture intelligence of WMD to justify going to war. Why would you need to blow up a building AND manufacture intelligence of WMD?
Just fucking ridiculous thinking.
I don't think Colin Powell could have convinced the american people that a full scale invasion of Iraq was necessary....they royally fucked up the WMD claims as is....if they were the sole basis of an invasion, it would not have had public support. Even with both the attacks AND the WMD claims, there were the largest worldwide protests in history prior to attacking Iraq. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan were just the beginning of what that event meant for the MIC - look at the public opinions of the refugee crisis, the wars in Syria, Libya, et al....this is all sold to the public by evoking 9/11; the images, the anger, the opinions on islam burned into our psyches by the attacks are what tip the scales away from opposition to war, imho...
So manufacture pictures of Bin Laden pooping on the flag or wiping his ass with the bible. That would fire them up.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
The whole conspiracy idea is absurd. It would be much easier to manufacture intelligence of WMD to justify going to war. Why would you need to blow up a building AND manufacture intelligence of WMD?
Just fucking ridiculous thinking.
twice now we agree.....I need a beer LOL !!!! anybody who thinks that the 911 attacks were created by the US is just crazy, where are the UFO truthers..hehehe, maybe it was an attack from another world for all the bad stuff the US has done LOL !!!!! or wait ,Bush did it right ??????????
The whole conspiracy idea is absurd. It would be much easier to manufacture intelligence of WMD to justify going to war. Why would you need to blow up a building AND manufacture intelligence of WMD?
Just fucking ridiculous thinking.
And kill almost three thousand civilians. I m still shocked that less than 3000 were killed. There is no way the U.S. government is behind 9/11.
Which questions about the any of the 3 buildings collapses are unanswered? I don't know how else a building could fall given the damage. I'm not a structural engineer, but I don't see how else it could've went down.
The Pentagon is a different story. But until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm going to believe a plane flew into the building. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere that would incdicate a missile hitting that building. Plus, I don't believe that many people can keep their mouths shut for that ling in it was a conspiracy.
I'm not an engineer either (tho I do have 20+ years experience in construction / management, which has given me a basic understanding of structural engineering), but there are hundreds of them who disbelieve the official and widely accepted reports enough to join an organization and put their reputations on the line. To me, if it was structural damage and fire, the buildings couldn't have fallen for the most part into their own footprints; there would have been more toppling, more resistance in areas that weren't as heavily damaged or burned, and a much less uniform fall. To ask which questions haven't been answered puts your faith in the answers presented in the official story, which is folly imo... There may not be evidence of a missile hitting the pentagon (most of it is classified for some reason), but there isn't home-run evidence of a 757 hitting it either, so why believe the official story instead of keeping an open mind? There is just so much wrong with the official story, esp in regards to the pentagon. Circling the building to approach from the side that was empty and reinforced instead of hitting it on the side that would have caused more damage, and where Rumsfeld and other high ranking officials resided....hitting it 10 ft off the ground instead of from the top where it would have caused 1000x more damage....the lack of damage to the ground, the lack of damage from the tail and wings....it doesn't add up.
The people 'can't keep their mouth shut' fallback is convenient and (sorry, but) lazy....there were plenty of whistleblowers, many of whom have met untimely, suspicious deaths....have you ever actually looked into what you're saying? 6 out of 10 the commissioners have called the commission report a joke! Michael Cleland resigned, saying the report was being deliberately compromised by the president himself. The thing with the whole 'no whistleblower' theory is that there would be very, very few people with details on an entirely over-arching plan. Some people might have knowledge of wrongdoing on a small scale, but their complaints likely wouldn't get a whole lot of attention because it doesn't imply more than a few people who no one has ever heard of. The suspicious deaths were likely also a warning to other whistleblowers. Would you risk your life and the lives of your family to tell people that one small, specific part of the 9/11 report was incorrect, knowing it wouldn't really result in anything? The people with knowledge of a large scale conspiracy were probably in on it enough to be implicated by their own whistleblowing....not to mention all the stock transactions that precluded the attacks, and the hundreds of millions (or way more depending what you believe) in missing gold would work well as hush money (which accepting would also make you complicit even if you had a change of heart).
From back to front... Firstly, I wouldn't write off any idea no matter how absurd, that people in power positions would do to maintain or seize further power. I'm typically a believer in Occam's Razor, but Occam's Razor gives me two conflicting opinions: the most obvious and most elegant of all viable options for an occurrence is the most likely reality, but then also that power has a tendency to lead to corruption, and then all scenarios become a game of chess. I wouldn't write off a conspiracy any sooner than I'd opt to take my government's words at face value.
My degree is as a structural engineer, and while I didn't practice for long, the rule of thumb for designing redundancy in load paths is to always engineer for devastation to aim the loads as close to straight down as possible - and not have lateral loads create a toppling situation (the Jenga should fall down within a radius, and not stray off the table). Of course, while buildings are designed for snow, wind, storms, assemblies, quake, and other loading patterns - no engineer save for a high-end PhD student is learning how to design a terrorist-proof building. It's just not economical. You're talking a MASSIVE load with load paths coming from unforeseen trajectories, affecting several crucial and redundant load-dispersing structural members simultaneously, and creating immense heat which not only alters structural members' strength capacities, but also how loads will disperse (i.e. the load paths designed by engineers become invalid at the instance of intense heat with abnormal spreading patterns).
There are a lot of variables, and I think if two brilliant structural engineers were put in a room, they could have at it for ages before concluding the natural fall was feasible or infeasible.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
The whole conspiracy idea is absurd. It would be much easier to manufacture intelligence of WMD to justify going to war. Why would you need to blow up a building AND manufacture intelligence of WMD?
Just fucking ridiculous thinking.
And kill almost three thousand civilians. I m still shocked that less than 3000 were killed. There is no way the U.S. government is behind 9/11.
What is odd to me is that it is generally the people who otherwise believe that government is incapable of simple tasks like issuing a tax refund that believe this massive coverup went down.
And, in the case of the Pentagon damage, they completely ignore the eyewitness accounts. They will go on forever about how there was no plane wreckage (even though there was) and ignore the security camera footage and the eyewitnesses on the damn highway that saw the plane fly right above their heads into the building.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
ah yes....never has there been so much consensus on anything on the train. I'm a loon, what can I say. Amazes me that some otherwise reasonable people can just let go of all the unanswered shit about that day and sling mud at anyone who continues to ask questions. No one in positions of power are willing to kill for more power, or what they believe to be the greater good, right? I'll just stop and let you guys think what you will - I won't be convincing anyone of anything else after 14 years anyway. Not that I give a fuck about my credibility here, but why exert the energy if people are comfortable with the explanations given and think I'm nuts for not believing it wholesale? (this is where everyone will say without specifics "I don't believe all of it and don't trust my government", while calling me nuts for believing less, and trusting less than they do). I have no clue what happened, only questions, and problems with the aftermath. I do believe there was complicity inside the US, or at least foreknowledge, but if people want to accept the half-assed, shoddy (or non-existant) investigations into the money trails, who knew what and when, how AQ was able to coordinate this on the one day that air defense and chain of command were completely compromised from top to bottom, the questions about the hijackers themselves, and the lack of scientific consensus questioned by those whacko architects, engineers, firefighters, pilorts, victim's families et al....then hey...have it 'er.
Which questions about the any of the 3 buildings collapses are unanswered? I don't know how else a building could fall given the damage. I'm not a structural engineer, but I don't see how else it could've went down.
The Pentagon is a different story. But until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm going to believe a plane flew into the building. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere that would incdicate a missile hitting that building. Plus, I don't believe that many people can keep their mouths shut for that ling in it was a conspiracy.
I'm not an engineer either (tho I do have 20+ years experience in construction / management, which has given me a basic understanding of structural engineering), but there are hundreds of them who disbelieve the official and widely accepted reports enough to join an organization and put their reputations on the line. To me, if it was structural damage and fire, the buildings couldn't have fallen for the most part into their own footprints; there would have been more toppling, more resistance in areas that weren't as heavily damaged or burned, and a much less uniform fall. To ask which questions haven't been answered puts your faith in the answers presented in the official story, which is folly imo... There may not be evidence of a missile hitting the pentagon (most of it is classified for some reason), but there isn't home-run evidence of a 757 hitting it either, so why believe the official story instead of keeping an open mind? There is just so much wrong with the official story, esp in regards to the pentagon. Circling the building to approach from the side that was empty and reinforced instead of hitting it on the side that would have caused more damage, and where Rumsfeld and other high ranking officials resided....hitting it 10 ft off the ground instead of from the top where it would have caused 1000x more damage....the lack of damage to the ground, the lack of damage from the tail and wings....it doesn't add up.
The people 'can't keep their mouth shut' fallback is convenient and (sorry, but) lazy....there were plenty of whistleblowers, many of whom have met untimely, suspicious deaths....have you ever actually looked into what you're saying? 6 out of 10 the commissioners have called the commission report a joke! Michael Cleland resigned, saying the report was being deliberately compromised by the president himself. The thing with the whole 'no whistleblower' theory is that there would be very, very few people with details on an entirely over-arching plan. Some people might have knowledge of wrongdoing on a small scale, but their complaints likely wouldn't get a whole lot of attention because it doesn't imply more than a few people who no one has ever heard of. The suspicious deaths were likely also a warning to other whistleblowers. Would you risk your life and the lives of your family to tell people that one small, specific part of the 9/11 report was incorrect, knowing it wouldn't really result in anything? The people with knowledge of a large scale conspiracy were probably in on it enough to be implicated by their own whistleblowing....not to mention all the stock transactions that precluded the attacks, and the hundreds of millions (or way more depending what you believe) in missing gold would work well as hush money (which accepting would also make you complicit even if you had a change of heart).
From back to front... Firstly, I wouldn't write off any idea no matter how absurd, that people in power positions would do to maintain or seize further power. I'm typically a believer in Occam's Razor, but Occam's Razor gives me two conflicting opinions: the most obvious and most elegant of all viable options for an occurrence is the most likely reality, but then also that power has a tendency to lead to corruption, and then all scenarios become a game of chess. I wouldn't write off a conspiracy any sooner than I'd opt to take my government's words at face value.
My degree is as a structural engineer, and while I didn't practice for long, the rule of thumb for designing redundancy in load paths is to always engineer for devastation to aim the loads as close to straight down as possible - and not have lateral loads create a toppling situation (the Jenga should fall down within a radius, and not stray off the table). Of course, while buildings are designed for snow, wind, storms, assemblies, quake, and other loading patterns - no engineer save for a high-end PhD student is learning how to design a terrorist-proof building. It's just not economical. You're talking a MASSIVE load with load paths coming from unforeseen trajectories, affecting several crucial and redundant load-dispersing structural members simultaneously, and creating immense heat which not only alters structural members' strength capacities, but also how loads will disperse (i.e. the load paths designed by engineers become invalid at the instance of intense heat with abnormal spreading patterns).
There are a lot of variables, and I think if two brilliant structural engineers were put in a room, they could have at it for ages before concluding the natural fall was feasible or infeasible.
Thanks for your input. I agree with your last paragraph, can't dispute much of the body of your post (don't really have the time nor energy to get into the few things I'd comment on), and also agree about Occam's razor - in theory it makes some sense to me, but it's just too convenient.
Comments
Fyi: gulf of Tonkin was Vietnam, not ww2.
And no, building seven was blocks from 1-2. Wasn't peppered with debre from 1-2. Other buildings that were actually smashed from 1-2 falling on them, still stood and didn't collapse into a pile.
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/design/a3524/4278874/
If you take either of those sources as an explanation for all of the anomalies that day, you are as much a conspiracy theorist as anyone presenting any other opinions. I personally don't try to come up with my own comprehensive version of what happened, but I sure as fuck don't believe the government's version. I think the motives were there (which you simplistically alluded to already), and there are people much more qualified than myself to ask the right questions: organizations of architects and engineers, pilots, and victim's families still insisting the commission report and popular mechanics article leave way too many questions unanswered, half-answered, or completely ignored.
To me, collapse of all three buildings in such a similar manner seems unlikely simply because of how uniformly they fell. A controlled demo is unlikely, but I think the pancake theory is just as unlikely....does the official narrative use the pancake theory for WTC7 as well?
The one that really bugs me tho, is the pentagon....ask any commercial pilot if a 757 flown by a guy who can't fly a cessna could have pulled off that flight path and they'll laugh....not to mention that the speed the plane made the approach banks would have completely destroyed the plane before it got to it's target. Simulator studies were done to see if other pilots could mimic the approach and it was shown to be virtually impossible. The damage is totally inconsistent with being hit by a plane as well.
This is such a tough topic, because there is soooo much disinformation out there, on both sides of the official/alternative stories, that asking simple questions of the official side can get you lumped in with some real crackpots....but that really works to the government's favour if there is any complicity there, doesn't it?
I'm about halfway through this new-ish documentary.... it's the most comprehensive one I've seen. It goes right after the commission report, popular mechanics, and the theories of people who make a living as 'debunkers'.....as far as I've been thru this, they haven't speculated much on alternative theories, but they do ask questions that lead in that direction (which is how this should be handled since to me, the objective is to get a proper, independent investigation into ALL of the events that day, not just the ones decided on by a stonewalled government inquiry). Incredibly detailed analysis....5 hours
I get conspiracy theories and other trains of thought - part of what makes this delightful merry-go-round - but just can't get my head around that mindset, not to mention flouting other evidence.
The Pentagon is a different story. But until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm going to believe a plane flew into the building. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere that would incdicate a missile hitting that building. Plus, I don't believe that many people can keep their mouths shut for that ling in it was a conspiracy.
sometimes the obvious answer IS the correct one.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056088/Footage-kills-conspiracy-theories-Rare-footage-shows-WTC-7-consumed-fire.html
www.headstonesband.com
I am not sure how anyone who truly thinks that the U.S purposefully killed almost 3,000 innocent citizens to is willing to live in this country. If I believed that our government killed that many people, including hundreds of public servants, I would be on the first plane out of this country and never come back.
Edit: And yes, having that many people keep their mouths shut for that long is beyond impossible.
There may not be evidence of a missile hitting the pentagon (most of it is classified for some reason), but there isn't home-run evidence of a 757 hitting it either, so why believe the official story instead of keeping an open mind? There is just so much wrong with the official story, esp in regards to the pentagon. Circling the building to approach from the side that was empty and reinforced instead of hitting it on the side that would have caused more damage, and where Rumsfeld and other high ranking officials resided....hitting it 10 ft off the ground instead of from the top where it would have caused 1000x more damage....the lack of damage to the ground, the lack of damage from the tail and wings....it doesn't add up.
The people 'can't keep their mouth shut' fallback is convenient and (sorry, but) lazy....there were plenty of whistleblowers, many of whom have met untimely, suspicious deaths....have you ever actually looked into what you're saying? 6 out of 10 the commissioners have called the commission report a joke! Michael Cleland resigned, saying the report was being deliberately compromised by the president himself.
The thing with the whole 'no whistleblower' theory is that there would be very, very few people with details on an entirely over-arching plan. Some people might have knowledge of wrongdoing on a small scale, but their complaints likely wouldn't get a whole lot of attention because it doesn't imply more than a few people who no one has ever heard of. The suspicious deaths were likely also a warning to other whistleblowers. Would you risk your life and the lives of your family to tell people that one small, specific part of the 9/11 report was incorrect, knowing it wouldn't really result in anything? The people with knowledge of a large scale conspiracy were probably in on it enough to be implicated by their own whistleblowing....not to mention all the stock transactions that precluded the attacks, and the hundreds of millions (or way more depending what you believe) in missing gold would work well as hush money (which accepting would also make you complicit even if you had a change of heart).
Just fucking ridiculous thinking.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
As far as the buildings falling, why would they topple? If the planes hit near the 30th floor, I could understand that theory. But the fact that they were hit so high up, leads me to think that the way they fell, is exactly how it should have fell given the damage. Plus, people thunk that the fire melted the steel. It didn't. The fire weakened it so much that it couldn't support the weight above it. Causing the pancake effect. There simply weren't enough floors above the impact site to topple over.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
anybody who thinks that the 911 attacks were created by the US is just crazy, where are the UFO truthers..hehehe, maybe it was an attack from another world for all the bad stuff the US has done LOL !!!!! or wait ,Bush did it right ??????????
Godfather.
My degree is as a structural engineer, and while I didn't practice for long, the rule of thumb for designing redundancy in load paths is to always engineer for devastation to aim the loads as close to straight down as possible - and not have lateral loads create a toppling situation (the Jenga should fall down within a radius, and not stray off the table). Of course, while buildings are designed for snow, wind, storms, assemblies, quake, and other loading patterns - no engineer save for a high-end PhD student is learning how to design a terrorist-proof building. It's just not economical. You're talking a MASSIVE load with load paths coming from unforeseen trajectories, affecting several crucial and redundant load-dispersing structural members simultaneously, and creating immense heat which not only alters structural members' strength capacities, but also how loads will disperse (i.e. the load paths designed by engineers become invalid at the instance of intense heat with abnormal spreading patterns).
There are a lot of variables, and I think if two brilliant structural engineers were put in a room, they could have at it for ages before concluding the natural fall was feasible or infeasible.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
And, in the case of the Pentagon damage, they completely ignore the eyewitness accounts. They will go on forever about how there was no plane wreckage (even though there was) and ignore the security camera footage and the eyewitnesses on the damn highway that saw the plane fly right above their heads into the building.
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
I'll just stop and let you guys think what you will - I won't be convincing anyone of anything else after 14 years anyway. Not that I give a fuck about my credibility here, but why exert the energy if people are comfortable with the explanations given and think I'm nuts for not believing it wholesale? (this is where everyone will say without specifics "I don't believe all of it and don't trust my government", while calling me nuts for believing less, and trusting less than they do).
I have no clue what happened, only questions, and problems with the aftermath. I do believe there was complicity inside the US, or at least foreknowledge, but if people want to accept the half-assed, shoddy (or non-existant) investigations into the money trails, who knew what and when, how AQ was able to coordinate this on the one day that air defense and chain of command were completely compromised from top to bottom, the questions about the hijackers themselves, and the lack of scientific consensus questioned by those whacko architects, engineers, firefighters, pilorts, victim's families et al....then hey...have it 'er. Thanks for your input. I agree with your last paragraph, can't dispute much of the body of your post (don't really have the time nor energy to get into the few things I'd comment on), and also agree about Occam's razor - in theory it makes some sense to me, but it's just too convenient.