Voter ID

Tim Simmons · March 25

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I guarantee you she doesn't know where her fucking birth cert is

Neither do I. But I can get one, I've done it before. Would probably be easier to order a new one than to sort through the boxes in the crawl space where it probably is.

I don't want to argue back and forth about your mother in law, so speaking in general of that age group. My grandma is in an assisted living and there are people there who can take residents to appointments and I'm pretty sure the DMV if needed. They also work with social workers who can help get help for that sort of thing too. Thats really the whole point of assisted living, and why it costs so much. If they don't assist you in those things, it's just an over-priced apartment that serves food.
Also, some states offer homebound DMV visits, especially to facilities like nursing homes and assisted living facilities. My state offers homebound DMV visits, they just require a formal request to be paper mailed in and document a reason.
You can also renew it online if a new picture is not needed.
My point is, where there's a will, there's a way. She would need one to update her will and power of attorney. It's not completely irrelevant for someone in her situation to still need an ID after they stop driving. Sure, it might be a hassle, but so are taxes.
I agree requirements should be made far in advance. But I do think resources are available to those who need them. I've said before I don't agree with the SAVE act, but basic ID requirements are not unreasonable. As long as any changes are made far enough in advance.

sure she could get a ride....it's still a hindrance, an obstacle to keep her from voting

why? to fit the narrative that the orange fuckhead vomits out regularly that some of you believe

I don't think voter fraud is rampant enough to change an election. I'm sure there is fraud, but it's not by the millions. I also think showing a standard ID when voting and registering is completely reasonable.
But I don't think a change should be effective immediately. Say maybe 5 years from now would be reasonable. I think my state already requires it though.

It's not like people have to go through this process of getting their first ID every time they vote. At least in my state, non-driving IDs never expire for people over 65. So when you are done driving, renew your license one last time for a non-driving ID and you will never have to do it ever again even if you live to 104.
Anyone who doesn't currently have an ID has 5 years to figure out how to get the documents they need and get one. That seems more than reasonable to me. I really don't know what a valid argument against that would be.

Would the id be free too? Same for the relevant documents you need to get the ID if you don’t have them? And would the hoops to get those documents be reasonable and minimally time consuming?

Tim Simmons · March 25

Because it is popular on both sides to have an ID to vote. The problem isn’t that. It’s the hurdles (however big or small, or however you personally deem them big or small) that people need to get an ID to vote which is a constitutional right to do with minimal impediment.

mace1229 · March 25

Tim Simmons said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I guarantee you she doesn't know where her fucking birth cert is

Neither do I. But I can get one, I've done it before. Would probably be easier to order a new one than to sort through the boxes in the crawl space where it probably is.

I don't want to argue back and forth about your mother in law, so speaking in general of that age group. My grandma is in an assisted living and there are people there who can take residents to appointments and I'm pretty sure the DMV if needed. They also work with social workers who can help get help for that sort of thing too. Thats really the whole point of assisted living, and why it costs so much. If they don't assist you in those things, it's just an over-priced apartment that serves food.
Also, some states offer homebound DMV visits, especially to facilities like nursing homes and assisted living facilities. My state offers homebound DMV visits, they just require a formal request to be paper mailed in and document a reason.
You can also renew it online if a new picture is not needed.
My point is, where there's a will, there's a way. She would need one to update her will and power of attorney. It's not completely irrelevant for someone in her situation to still need an ID after they stop driving. Sure, it might be a hassle, but so are taxes.
I agree requirements should be made far in advance. But I do think resources are available to those who need them. I've said before I don't agree with the SAVE act, but basic ID requirements are not unreasonable. As long as any changes are made far enough in advance.

sure she could get a ride....it's still a hindrance, an obstacle to keep her from voting

why? to fit the narrative that the orange fuckhead vomits out regularly that some of you believe

I don't think voter fraud is rampant enough to change an election. I'm sure there is fraud, but it's not by the millions. I also think showing a standard ID when voting and registering is completely reasonable.
But I don't think a change should be effective immediately. Say maybe 5 years from now would be reasonable. I think my state already requires it though.

It's not like people have to go through this process of getting their first ID every time they vote. At least in my state, non-driving IDs never expire for people over 65. So when you are done driving, renew your license one last time for a non-driving ID and you will never have to do it ever again even if you live to 104.
Anyone who doesn't currently have an ID has 5 years to figure out how to get the documents they need and get one. That seems more than reasonable to me. I really don't know what a valid argument against that would be.

Would the id be free too? Same for the relevant documents you need to get the ID if you don’t have them? And would the hoops to get those documents be reasonable and minimally time consuming?

The cost of an ID is pretty minimal, like $12 in my state I think. I also read there are waivers for those in financial need. So to answer your question, my best guess is it's probably free to those who can't afford the $12.
The same may apply to the documents needed to obtain one, a birth certificate is $15.
If you have all the needed paperworks, there's almost no hoops to jump through. You can even do it online. If I needed my birth certificate I'd probably rather spend 15 minutes and $15 to get a copy than spend half my weekend digging through my old records.
The only hoop would be if you have basically nothing to identify you. You need an ID to get a copy of your birth certificate, but you need a birth certificate to get an ID. Catch 22. There appears to be ways around it, you might be able to get a close relative to get your birth certificate, you can ask for an exception and use school records or other forms of records to get a birth certificate. I've never had to do it, just what I'm reading online from people asking the same question, so take it for what you will. But I seriously doubt the government is going to make it impossible to get an ID, they want to know who you are. I'm sure there's extra paperwork involved in that. But if you give people a few years notice of any changes to figure it out, I don't have a problem with that.

mace1229 · March 25

Tim Simmons said:

Because it is popular on both sides to have an ID to vote. The problem isn’t that. It’s the hurdles (however big or small, or however you personally deem them big or small) that people need to get an ID to vote which is a constitutional right to do with minimal impediment.

A constitutional right doesn't translate into no effort needed. It's a constitutional right to own a gun, but, depending on the state, there's some big hoops to jump through. (Yes I know guns kill people and IDs don't, I'm just saying it being a right doesn't eliminate any hassle).
I think anything requiring a reasonable amount of effort to obtain is completely fine. But that's subjective, what I find a reasonable amount of effort, you may not. Seeing as you really only have to get your first ID once in your life, even if it takes all day, that's still reasonable to me. Once you have an ID, it's easy to renew, minimal or no paperwork needed, and can often do it online in minutes.

HughFreakingDillon · March 25

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

PJ_Soul · March 25

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

Exactly. How many people it may or may not effect, or whether or not they choose to vote, is entirely besides the point. That is always the case in matters of rights or a lack thereof, besides in matters of public safety.

Tim Simmons · March 25

I think Mace is being fair if all things were equal. But clearly things aren't.

For me the bottom line is, Voter fraud is essentially not a thing (at the most its statistically irrelevant), so I don't know why its being recognized as an issue. Which leads me to wonder why ARE we doing a thing, and we all know why a subset of the government is trying to make it a thing. THATS the real issue here. Not whats the most fair way to solve a nonexistent (statistically) problem.

gimmesometruth27 · March 25

murkowski is a hard no on this bill. she said people would have to either fly to juneau or take a 20 hour ferry to juneau to get their required documents. i hope she holds to this.

Tim Simmons · March 25

The stuff I’ve read about this hurting more Republican voters than Dem voters is really interesting. And the real reason why I think this will fail.

mace1229 · March 26

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

Gern Blansten · March 26

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

to be comparative though...did Canada attempt to pass a law requiring ID/passport six months before a major election?

mace1229 · March 26

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

to be comparative though...did Canada attempt to pass a law requiring ID/passport six months before a major election?

I'm guessing probably not. But the same logic still applies, if standard ID is required in many countries around the world to vote, why is it acceptable there but suddenly inappropriate here? If no one should face any hurdles, no matter how big or small, then that should apply everywhere. But it seems like the US faces stronger criticism for the same thing.
Another reason I, and the majority of the country, is completely fine with requiring a standard ID check when voting and is a very reasonable request. Not a passport, but standard ID checks.

josevolution · March 26

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

to be comparative though...did Canada attempt to pass a law requiring ID/passport six months before a major election?

I'm guessing probably not. But the same logic still applies, if standard ID is required in many countries around the world to vote, why is it acceptable there but suddenly inappropriate here? If no one should face any hurdles, no matter how big or small, then that should apply everywhere. But it seems like the US faces stronger criticism for the same thing.
Another reason I, and the majority of the country, is completely fine with requiring a standard ID check when voting and is a very reasonable request. Not a passport, but standard ID checks.

Ok so let me ask? Why this election coming up in November and why haven’t you talked about him voting by mail at the same time he’s been saying mail voting is not to be trusted? Was there an outcry from GOP back in 24? About voting ID?

HughFreakingDillon · March 26

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

Nope. I’ve stated several times over the years that I think it’s odd that it’s not required in your country.

I’m against republican roadblocks to obtain the necessary documents, or the types of documents required.

It’s also law here for your employer to give you x amount of hours off work to vote if you need it.

We also don’t have fucked up districts and gerrymandering and all that other voter suppression shit. We have a shit ton of places to vote, their hours are clear, very little confusion, lines are usually quick and efficient.

All of our parties actually value as many people voting as possible.

HughFreakingDillon · March 26

Tim Simmons said:

I think Mace is being fair if all things were equal. But clearly things aren't.

For me the bottom line is, Voter fraud is essentially not a thing (at the most its statistically irrelevant), so I don't know why its being recognized as an issue. Which leads me to wonder why ARE we doing a thing, and we all know why a subset of the government is trying to make it a thing. THATS the real issue here. Not whats the most fair way to solve a nonexistent (statistically) problem.

Well, yeah, things not being equal is essentially the entire discussion at this point.

gimmesometruth27 · March 26

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

to be comparative though...did Canada attempt to pass a law requiring ID/passport six months before a major election?

also did canada have a prime minister claim that he won an election 6 years ago where he clearly got destroyed electorally, blaming millions and millions of illegal votes being cast? which is now the justification for this potential disenfranchising millions and millions of legal voters.

apples to oranges.

Gern Blansten · March 26

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

to be comparative though...did Canada attempt to pass a law requiring ID/passport six months before a major election?

I'm guessing probably not. But the same logic still applies, if standard ID is required in many countries around the world to vote, why is it acceptable there but suddenly inappropriate here? If no one should face any hurdles, no matter how big or small, then that should apply everywhere. But it seems like the US faces stronger criticism for the same thing.
Another reason I, and the majority of the country, is completely fine with requiring a standard ID check when voting and is a very reasonable request. Not a passport, but standard ID checks.

I'm in the bucket of people that is fine with requiring ID....but there has to be a process to get people these IDs if they need them.

mickeyrat · March 26

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

to be comparative though...did Canada attempt to pass a law requiring ID/passport six months before a major election?

I'm guessing probably not. But the same logic still applies, if standard ID is required in many countries around the world to vote, why is it acceptable there but suddenly inappropriate here? If no one should face any hurdles, no matter how big or small, then that should apply everywhere. But it seems like the US faces stronger criticism for the same thing.
Another reason I, and the majority of the country, is completely fine with requiring a standard ID check when voting and is a very reasonable request. Not a passport, but standard ID checks.

because its up to the individual states what they deem acceptable since they run elections.. you know as stated in the constitution.

mace1229 · March 26

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I've never seen so many posts dedicated to excusing suppressing a right because of their own privilege.

Seriously, there are innumerable reasons why these "minimal hoops" could still be insurmountable, or at best, extremely difficult to jump through for a seemingly surprisingly large group of people. And following that up with "well these people probably don't even vote then" is a non sequitur.

According to this, you need ID to vote in Canada. So why is it wrong to implement the same policy here in the US?
https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

Someone without proof of residence or an ID will have the same trouble voting there as they would here if a standard ID is required. Seems pretty normal to require standard ID when voting to me.
Are you and PJSoul advocating for legislative change there if you're against ID for voting (serious question, do you think it should change)?

Nope. I’ve stated several times over the years that I think it’s odd that it’s not required in your country.

I’m against republican roadblocks to obtain the necessary documents, or the types of documents required.

It’s also law here for your employer to give you x amount of hours off work to vote if you need it.

We also don’t have fucked up districts and gerrymandering and all that other voter suppression shit. We have a shit ton of places to vote, their hours are clear, very little confusion, lines are usually quick and efficient.

All of our parties actually value as many people voting as possible.

I must have misunderstood, I thought you were against all ID checks for voting.

Gerrymandering is weird, I don't know how or why it is allowed. One of the dumbest things we do.

Most states require time off to vote. about 1/3 don't require it, and there doesn't seem to be any trend about red vs blue that don't (if you were curious). I haven't looked into the comparison of absentee voting to those that don't require time off, that could be a reason why. Many states are very relaxed about mail in voting.

I've never had trouble finding a place to vote or had to go far. Maybe it's different for rural areas, but I've never had to go far at all. Many schools here close on voting days because they are used as voting places.

I've also never been confusing about voting hours. They always close at the same time, but when they open can vary by an hour or two, but it's easy to find out, it's no secret.

I've heard of long lines, but I've never seen it. Probably never had to wait more than 15 minutes, and that was the one year I went in early, as soon as they opened. Other than that, it's probably 5 minutes or less. Might be different in some areas or if you wait until the last minute to go.

cincybearcat · March 26

Tim Simmons said:

Because it is popular on both sides to have an ID to vote. The problem isn’t that. It’s the hurdles (however big or small, or however you personally deem them big or small) that people need to get an ID to vote which is a constitutional right to do with minimal impediment.

Here's the deal, you are right that it is popular. And instead of owning it and getting done a realistic proposal while they controlled the government, they became the party of "No", instead of "yes, but...". They lost control of the issue by doing nothing and then losing control of the government. And now we have the MAGA party doing crazy shit. Would they have done it anyhow...probably. Would it have gone over like a wet blanket if there were already reasonable requirements in place defined by the Dems...probably.

Sitting and doing nothing while you have control has become pretty standard it seems. Hell - they waited till the 11th hour on immigration. Had they done that early in Biden term, I'd be interested to see where we would be.

And yes I understand MAGA is different and trump is very different so maybe it wouldn't have mattered THIS TIME. But we had many many man many years for each of these issues.

Voter ID

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