Afghanistan

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

True.
This conversation started with asking why some are angrier over Kabul than Jan 6. Just because it happened before and just because it isn't a surprise, doesn't mean it shouldn't make me angry. 
A pointless war of 20 years with thousands of American lives lost, while arming the people we were trying to fight at our expense does make me more upset than events that took place over a few hours and resulted in a single death. While January 6th does make me angry, I just don't see how it compares to 20 years of a pointless war and thousands of lives.

cblock4life said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

True.
This conversation started with asking why some are angrier over Kabul than Jan 6. Just because it happened before and just because it isn't a surprise, doesn't mean it shouldn't make me angry. 
A pointless war of 20 years with thousands of American lives lost, while arming the people we were trying to fight at our expense does make me more upset than events that took place over a few hours and resulted in a single death. While January 6th does make me angry, I just don't see how it compares to 20 years of a pointless war and thousands of lives.

So based on your definition of war or a war type coup effort (that’s what we’ll call it) it’s the length of time, the number of lives lost, property damage , etc. that determines the level of anger one should feel about it.  This is where I get lost….is it the people we spent the money on, the way they were treated before, not being able to get them out, what exactly are you mad about?  You seem mad about the money spent then mad about us not getting them out. These two things are two different ways of looking at a humanitarian crisis and I don’t think you can worry about money spent before or now while trying to accomplish the evacuation. So the length of time you fight for freedom is what really matters to you, what’s important. Or is it money….or just because it’s Biden? 

mcgruff10 said:

Like what in the actual…..

RunIntoTheRain said:

mcgruff10 said:

Like what in the actual…..

I did not miss his bullshit spewing at all. Do not want him to have a platform to vomit it from in the future.

mace1229 said:

cblock4life said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

True.
This conversation started with asking why some are angrier over Kabul than Jan 6. Just because it happened before and just because it isn't a surprise, doesn't mean it shouldn't make me angry. 
A pointless war of 20 years with thousands of American lives lost, while arming the people we were trying to fight at our expense does make me more upset than events that took place over a few hours and resulted in a single death. While January 6th does make me angry, I just don't see how it compares to 20 years of a pointless war and thousands of lives.

So based on your definition of war or a war type coup effort (that’s what we’ll call it) it’s the length of time, the number of lives lost, property damage , etc. that determines the level of anger one should feel about it.  This is where I get lost….is it the people we spent the money on, the way they were treated before, not being able to get them out, what exactly are you mad about?  You seem mad about the money spent then mad about us not getting them out. These two things are two different ways of looking at a humanitarian crisis and I don’t think you can worry about money spent before or now while trying to accomplish the evacuation. So the length of time you fight for freedom is what really matters to you, what’s important. Or is it money….or just because it’s Biden? 

I never said who should and shouldn’t be angry. Just that I don’t see it as unreasonable someone would be more upset over a 20-year war than Jan 6 based partially on what you said. Except you never mentioned what is the biggest factor, the number of deaths. And I would agree. But if you don’t, that’s fine. I’m not trying to dictate what anyone should be upset over. We all have our own metrics. If you’re more upset with Jan 6, that doesn’t bother me. I personally think deaths is a good one. More than 2000 Americans died fighting and by the looks of it, we have nothing to show for it. That’s the main reason, all the money and resources wasted is just salt in the wounds, but minor in comparison to 2500 killed and who knows how many times as many severely disabled for life.
I haven’t blamed Biden. We should have left years ago.  I don’t believe I’ve even mentioned his name on this thread. It’s too early for me to tell yet, if we get everyone out who needs to, then I won’t blame him. If thousands die try to get to a plane, then yeah I’ll say he should have had a better plan to get them out. But it’s looking hopeful at the moment.

cblock4life said:

dankind said:

cblock4life said:

WTF 

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/24/1030838666/2-congressmen-make-secret-trip-to-kabul-amid-u-s-withdrawal-chaos

Oh no! There's a US government-led shitshow, and the people we elected (both quite familiar with US government-led shitshows, btw) want to make sure that we are handling it well because it reflects not only how the Biden administration is viewed at home (all that the Biden administration seems to care about right now) but more importantly and more broadly how the US is viewed by the world.

I'll just keep wasting my vote on Seth Moulton for president.

Moulton up for re-election in 2022 correct?  Sounds like a bunch of grandstanding to me.  Just what everyone over there needs is to worry about two more Americans in harms way.  

All politicians are disgusting.  Doesn’t matter what level, what party, you have to be scum to be a politician otherwise you’ll never win.  It’s basically a modern day low level mafia pretending like it’s all legit.  Gonna check on everything over there, bull crap, they do nothing without wanting or getting something in return.  Even if they start out with good intentions they soon realize that you have to be scummy to deal with scum.  

dankind said:

cblock4life said:

dankind said:

cblock4life said:

WTF 

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/24/1030838666/2-congressmen-make-secret-trip-to-kabul-amid-u-s-withdrawal-chaos

Oh no! There's a US government-led shitshow, and the people we elected (both quite familiar with US government-led shitshows, btw) want to make sure that we are handling it well because it reflects not only how the Biden administration is viewed at home (all that the Biden administration seems to care about right now) but more importantly and more broadly how the US is viewed by the world.

I'll just keep wasting my vote on Seth Moulton for president.

Moulton up for re-election in 2022 correct?  Sounds like a bunch of grandstanding to me.  Just what everyone over there needs is to worry about two more Americans in harms way.  

All politicians are disgusting.  Doesn’t matter what level, what party, you have to be scum to be a politician otherwise you’ll never win.  It’s basically a modern day low level mafia pretending like it’s all legit.  Gonna check on everything over there, bull crap, they do nothing without wanting or getting something in return.  Even if they start out with good intentions they soon realize that you have to be scummy to deal with scum.  

Living in his district and having personally met the man on more than one occasion and knocked doors for him, you couldn't be more wrong.

Moulton is not a politician; he is a public servant.

If he were a good politician, he would fall in line with Auntie Nancy and Grandpa Biden, but he has the US's best interest at heart, not the goddamn party's/administrations.

I'll keep voting for him, but I doubt the party line folks will.