Afghanistan

Gern Blansten

cincybearcat said:

Bentleyspop said:

The Juggler said:

cincybearcat said:

The Juggler said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

The more I look into this the more I believe the Biden administration was just severely handcuffed by the Trump administration's surrender to the Taliban last year. Agreeing to withdraw our troops with no contingencies and then releasing 5,000 Taliban soldiers last year, along with Pompeo meeting with the same guys who are now set to run the country (elevating their status)--not to mention wanting them to visit Camp David on the 9/11 anniversary, was pretty much the writing on the wall for the Afghan military. Biden admin clearly could've handled this better but it was a lose-lose proposition for them. 

The only thing with that is, trump had a lot of policies and things that Biden immediately undid.  And trump had immediately undone things when he took office.  Ultimately, Joe wanted the troops out too.  The failure seems to be in not realizing what would happen in 72 hours.  And not being ready to shift plans when it ultimately did happen.  

Yeah I understand all that. My thinking though, is if we had already agreed to leave with no conditions by a certain point and they already released those 5,000 Taliban dudes last year...backing out of that deal would likely have meant new fighting/war with the Taliban again and that would've been horrible too after 20 years. 

Personally, I would have never made the deal Trump made last year. I still don't see the harm in keeping a small amount of troops there moving forward. 

Agree with the initial 72 hour thing. But I also think not having the Trump administration help them much at all in the transition and then being handed a covid catastrophe to deal with right off the bat probably lead to some of that unpreparedness maybe. 

This is all true.
But if anyone at anytime thought for one moment that the U.S. had won, was winning, or was going to win in Afghanistan they were sorely mistaken and completely unaware of what Afghanistan has always been. A country run by feudal chieftains,  patronage. and family hierarchy. For centuries. 

Did we do the right thing by going in after Al-Qaeda?
Yup.
Should we have been there this long? Nope
Did we help the Afghanistan people? More than we hurt?(I know this is debatable) Yes.

To put ALL the blame on Joe Biden and his administration is politically driven and completely ignorant of the situation and what was left for them.

Yeah agree there.  Putting all the blame on Biden is just stupid.  Ultimately he deserves credit for actually ending this thing.  But he does deserve the blame for how it was managed.  

I give him credit for not throwing his generals under the bus.  That would have been the first thing out of tRump's stupid mouth.

Halifax2TheMax

nicknyr15 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

Would your post count about it be at least tripled if there was a certain other person in the White House?

POOTWH did the exact same thing Bush did to Obama before leaving office. All in an effort to try and ensure a one term presidency and gain seats in the midterms. Funny how a thread from 2012 suddenly matters, so concerned with the 20 year war some on here claim to be. Guess they weren't paying attention?

And to answer your question, no.

mace1229

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

Gern Blansten

mickeyrat said:

Dan Rather via substack....

https://steady.substack.com/p/in-the-middle-of-history-6cf

very good read.

Great article....Rather is a fucking icon

mcgruff10

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

mrussel1

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. 

mace1229

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

True.
This conversation started with asking why some are angrier over Kabul than Jan 6. Just because it happened before and just because it isn't a surprise, doesn't mean it shouldn't make me angry. 
A pointless war of 20 years with thousands of American lives lost, while arming the people we were trying to fight at our expense does make me more upset than events that took place over a few hours and resulted in a single death. While January 6th does make me angry, I just don't see how it compares to 20 years of a pointless war and thousands of lives.

mace1229

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

That's also what Rambo III is about. Kind of funny to watch it now.

The Juggler

deleted!

cblock4life

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

True.
This conversation started with asking why some are angrier over Kabul than Jan 6. Just because it happened before and just because it isn't a surprise, doesn't mean it shouldn't make me angry. 
A pointless war of 20 years with thousands of American lives lost, while arming the people we were trying to fight at our expense does make me more upset than events that took place over a few hours and resulted in a single death. While January 6th does make me angry, I just don't see how it compares to 20 years of a pointless war and thousands of lives.

What happened in Afghanistan was way more than trying to help people live freely and had it worked whatever the US wanted (oil?) would have been their payment to us forever.  

What happened on January 6th was meant to destroy a democracy, discredit a free election with no solid evidence, humiliate and embarrass this country more than how awful we look anyway, etc. etc. These two events are not alike at all.  And with all the issues in this country I’m just not getting that you’re sooo angry about Afghanistan.  Yes it was a waste of lives and money but at least we were trying to do something good while trying to get over. What exactly were FF followers trying to accomplish (and in our own country no less)? 

The Juggler

cblock4life said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

True.
This conversation started with asking why some are angrier over Kabul than Jan 6. Just because it happened before and just because it isn't a surprise, doesn't mean it shouldn't make me angry. 
A pointless war of 20 years with thousands of American lives lost, while arming the people we were trying to fight at our expense does make me more upset than events that took place over a few hours and resulted in a single death. While January 6th does make me angry, I just don't see how it compares to 20 years of a pointless war and thousands of lives.

What happened in Afghanistan was way more than trying to help people live freely and had it worked whatever the US wanted (oil?) would have been their payment to us forever.  

What happened on January 6th was meant to destroy a democracy, discredit a free election with no solid evidence, humiliate and embarrass this country more than how awful we look anyway, etc. etc. These two events are not alike at all.  And with all the issues in this country I’m just not getting that you’re sooo angry about Afghanistan.  Yes it was a waste of lives and money but at least we were trying to do something good while trying to get over. What exactly were FF followers trying to accomplish (and in our own country no less)? 

Selective Outrage.

People who haven't thought about Afghanistan in years and/or, who either didn't say anything or were happy with Trump's negotiated surrender last year are suddenly up in arms.

I also don't understand the continual minimizing of January 6th, especially considering how Republicans played up Benghazi (also an event that took place over several hours) for YEARS....yet when what was basically a coup attempt happens here, they just don't give a shit.

Also---Five people died as a result of January 6th. Not one. 

cblock4life

That’s it….that’s the answer.  And I think I’ll add selective outrage to my list of selective’s like stupidity, hearing, etc.  

Halifax2TheMax

What are people’s expectations regarding evacuating Afghanistan? 16,000 people were evacuated yesterday and there’s supposedly 15,000 Americans in Afghanistan. With 8 days to go, we’re on pace to evacuating 144,000+ people. Afghan Nationals that assisted US and NATO efforts number between 60,000 to 75,000, from a source I came across. Is Biden expected to evacuate everyone not Taliban?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/22/infographic-how-many-people-have-been-evacuated-from-afghanistan-interactive

And if you don’t think nefarious actors like Putin on the ritz, via social media, aren’t encouraging the “chaos,” I’ve got a wall I’ll sell you.

mace1229

The Juggler said:

cblock4life said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

cincybearcat said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Because this is the accumulation of 20 years of war, Thousands of American lives, many more lives around the world. The prospect of even more lives of those left behind. Billions of dollars of equipment and buildings are now in the hands of those we were fighting, people who have treated other brutally. The continued mishandling and lack of honesty of of the situation. Wondering what the heck was going on the last 20 years. There’s a lot to be angry about.

How’d you feel in 2003, 2005, 2008 and 2011? Were you angry then?

I didn’t know that our efforts were going to collapse within days back then.

Kinda a weird question.  I think most of the criticism today is in regards to the management of the pullout and with a sprinkle of "if it was that fragile, what the hell did we waste lives, $ and resources on it".

I'm shocked it was a fragile as it was.  It seems Biden and team have made an effort to shift and manage the situation better at the moment.  But for some it will be too little too late.  Easy to see why people like Obama/Trump pushed off this hard decision though...

That’s exactly it. 10 years ago I didn’t know it was this fragile, that the people we were training and arming would last 72 hours, and essentially be arming the people we’ve been fighting. I hoped we’d actually be making a difference.
I don’t know why people wouldn’t be angry about this. It represents 20 years of a war that resulted in wasted lives, money and resources and within 72 hours of leaving it’s like we were never there.  Why wouldn’t someone be upset over that?

I’m surprised that anyone was/is surprised by the outcome. Silly me.

You expected the army we trained to give up and be over run within 3 days? You expected that thousands of people, including American citizens and those who aided us, would be left and stranded? You expected within just days that people would be hanging onto aircraft as it takes off because they are so desperate to get out?
I didn't really expect a lot, but I did expect more than this. 

I fully expected it to end in a complete shit show as you described. So, yes.

I did too. I knew whatever we built wouldn't last forever. 
But didn't expect it as fast. Not with as many left behind. And not arming the people we'd been fighting so well with expensive weapons and equipment. 

We armed the same people in the 80s.   

True.
This conversation started with asking why some are angrier over Kabul than Jan 6. Just because it happened before and just because it isn't a surprise, doesn't mean it shouldn't make me angry. 
A pointless war of 20 years with thousands of American lives lost, while arming the people we were trying to fight at our expense does make me more upset than events that took place over a few hours and resulted in a single death. While January 6th does make me angry, I just don't see how it compares to 20 years of a pointless war and thousands of lives.

What happened in Afghanistan was way more than trying to help people live freely and had it worked whatever the US wanted (oil?) would have been their payment to us forever.  

What happened on January 6th was meant to destroy a democracy, discredit a free election with no solid evidence, humiliate and embarrass this country more than how awful we look anyway, etc. etc. These two events are not alike at all.  And with all the issues in this country I’m just not getting that you’re sooo angry about Afghanistan.  Yes it was a waste of lives and money but at least we were trying to do something good while trying to get over. What exactly were FF followers trying to accomplish (and in our own country no less)? 

Selective Outrage.

People who haven't thought about Afghanistan in years and/or, who either didn't say anything or were happy with Trump's negotiated surrender last year are suddenly up in arms.

I also don't understand the continual minimizing of January 6th, especially considering how Republicans played up Benghazi (also an event that took place over several hours) for YEARS....yet when what was basically a coup attempt happens here, they just don't give a shit.

Also---Five people died as a result of January 6th. Not one. 

1 person died as a direct result of January 6 the others were ruled as natural causes. I believe the others were 2 died of a heart attack, 1 of an OD of amphetamine and 1 of a stroke (the police officer, he wasn't beaten to death with a fire extinguisher as originally reported). I don't recall any of those being stated as a direct result from the day's events. If someone had a heart attack or the stroke as a result of the violence, then I'd be wrong, but I don't recall that being the case.

I'm not minimizing Jan 6. It was horrible, I think those who entered the capitol building should face serious charges. Saying it was not as bad as a war is not minimizing it. But if I could erase one event from history I'd pick the 20 year war that costs thousands of lives.

I never said I was outraged. I said it makes me angry to think this is the end result of 20 years. I haven't spoken much about it much except for a couple posts here, mostly answering a question as to why one person might be more upset over Afghanistan than Jan 6. I didn't minimize it, just stated facts comparing the end result of the 2.
As cblock said, the intent of the war was better than Jan 6, but that doesn't change the end result. Makes total sense to me how someone could be more angry about a 20-year war than a failed insurrection that cost 1 life (5 if you count the natural causes, still far less than war). The impacts of a 20-year war are far greater than Jan 6. That doesn't mean I minimize or approve if it. You can disagree, but I think the thousands killed and the many times more severely disabled for life probably wouldn't. As I said, if i could erase the impact of one, I'd chose the war. So its easy to see why it would make someone angrier. 

tbergs

This is all working out real nice for GW right now. Everyone pissed at Biden, Trump or Obama when that fucker is the one who put us there and escalated this mess. Everyone else up until now just continued the charade in the interest of a mirage of US success on foreign land. Someone else already stated it, but both Trump and Obama knew withdrawal would be political suicide so they made empty gestures or half assed deals. Our military and intelligence groups have known for a long time this is what the end would look like. Now they all provide their bullshit Monday morning quarterbacks analysis and act like they had it all figured out, but Biden blew it. They'd all have blown it.

Halifax2TheMax

Bang that war drum slowly but steady, John Boy. Bang it slow.

Opinion: The time for equivocating about a nuclear-armed, Taliban-friendly Pakistan is over

Many profound ramifications of America’s exodus from Afghanistan are competing for attention. Among the top challenges, Pakistan’s future stands out. For decades, Islamabad has recklessly pursued nuclear weapons and aided Islamist terrorism — threats that U.S. policymakers have consistently underestimated or mishandled. With Kabul’s fall, the time for neglect or equivocation is over.

The Taliban’s takeover next door immediately poses the sharply higher risk that Pakistani extremists will increase their already sizable influence in Islamabad, threatening at some point to seize full control.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/23/john-bolton-taliban-takeover-pakistan-extremists/

The Juggler

cblock4life said:

That’s it….that’s the answer.  And I think I’ll add selective outrage to my list of selective’s like stupidity, hearing, etc.  

And a lot of the people outraged right now either said nothing or were likely happy with Trump's negotiated surrender to the Taliban last year, Trump's wanting them to visit Camp David last year, Pompeo meeting with top Taliban fighters, or Trump giving the okay to release 5,000 Taliban soldiers, many of whom are probably stationed outside the Kabul airport right now. 

I bet a lot of these people are still concerned with Hillary's emails and Hunter's laptop. lol

The Juggler

Halifax2TheMax

The Juggler said:

Buh, buh, buh it’s chaos! It’s a disaster! Total failure! President Biden did this and made the deal that ended in tragedy! Just horrible!

tbergs

Halifax2TheMax said:

The Juggler said:

Buh, buh, buh it’s chaos! It’s a disaster! Total failure! President Biden did this and made the deal that ended in tragedy! Just horrible!

Well, it was chaos the first several days.