Seattle Has Fallen...

PJPOWER said:

JW269453 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Yea, sounds like real lunacy. More like libertarianism or Bundyism, without the firearms. You going looking for the pizza franchise?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dubbed-a-lawless-state-by-some-the-chaz-or-chop-seattles-newest-neighborhood-tries-to-create-its-own-narrative/

Oh there's firearms...

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1272687765772107778?s=20

https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1272651060738392067?s=20

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1272697872912277504?s=20

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1272699146151972864?s=20

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1272600504653148160?s=20

Washington State is open carry right? And the Faux news photoshop of “armed guards” was proven to be bullshit. Why now, in CHAZ or CHOP, which the right constantly proclaims as lawless, is it an issue for citizens to legally open carry? I’m on the record as being opposed to any side open carrying. It’s like some posters are just dying for blood to be spilled and mayhem to ensue. That said, what’s your point other than there’s guns present? Pretty much like in a lot of America, some places more than others. I guess it’s a lot more like Bundyism and libertarianism then? But next jimjam goes to Seattle, s/he will restore order?

Just be honest. We would be seeing a new "responsible" gun owner post from you every time you opened up your twitter account if this was widely seen as a movement by the other side. Just go back a few weeks ago when it seems you were convinced the right wing protesters were going to be spraying bullets at anytime. You may be against open carry, but you certainly haven't given both examples the same treatment.

What I always find interesting is that people seem to assume that only one “side” promotes gun ownership.  To me, that’s why I always saw it risky for hardcore gun control democrats to push that platform so vehemently as it alienates many who would otherwise align with them.  For example, google the Puget Sound John Brown Gun Club
https://psjbgc.org/

I would be willing to bet they are pretty active in the CHOP...

For sure. I live in Texas and although I choose not to pick a side when it comes to politics I know many supporters on both sides and most of them own a gun for home defense at least. Everything is not as divided as they want us to think, but at the end of the day securing votes is all that really matters.

JW269453 said:

PJPOWER said:

JW269453 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Yea, sounds like real lunacy. More like libertarianism or Bundyism, without the firearms. You going looking for the pizza franchise?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dubbed-a-lawless-state-by-some-the-chaz-or-chop-seattles-newest-neighborhood-tries-to-create-its-own-narrative/

Oh there's firearms...

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1272687765772107778?s=20

https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1272651060738392067?s=20

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1272697872912277504?s=20

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1272699146151972864?s=20

https://twitter.com/RichieMcGinniss/status/1272600504653148160?s=20

Washington State is open carry right? And the Faux news photoshop of “armed guards” was proven to be bullshit. Why now, in CHAZ or CHOP, which the right constantly proclaims as lawless, is it an issue for citizens to legally open carry? I’m on the record as being opposed to any side open carrying. It’s like some posters are just dying for blood to be spilled and mayhem to ensue. That said, what’s your point other than there’s guns present? Pretty much like in a lot of America, some places more than others. I guess it’s a lot more like Bundyism and libertarianism then? But next jimjam goes to Seattle, s/he will restore order?

Just be honest. We would be seeing a new "responsible" gun owner post from you every time you opened up your twitter account if this was widely seen as a movement by the other side. Just go back a few weeks ago when it seems you were convinced the right wing protesters were going to be spraying bullets at anytime. You may be against open carry, but you certainly haven't given both examples the same treatment.

What I always find interesting is that people seem to assume that only one “side” promotes gun ownership.  To me, that’s why I always saw it risky for hardcore gun control democrats to push that platform so vehemently as it alienates many who would otherwise align with them.  For example, google the Puget Sound John Brown Gun Club
https://psjbgc.org/

I would be willing to bet they are pretty active in the CHOP...

For sure. I live in Texas and although I choose not to pick a side when it comes to politics I know many supporters on both sides and most of them own a gun for home defense at least. Everything is not as divided as they want us to think, but at the end of the day securing votes is all that really matters.

As a fellow Texan, I agree.  Probably why Beto didn’t win, actually.  He alienated many democrats with his hardcore gun control stance, when very few Democrats in the state hold the same sentiment.  I’m not arguing whether they are right or wrong as my opinions on that have been pretty open.  It’s just the truth of the matter.  Hardcore gun control will not be the issue that wins an election.

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

“The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?

It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 

I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?

Oh the outrage. Seattle has certainly fallen. What’s ‘Murica gonna do?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/15/dont-listen-to-fox-heres-whats-really-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

“The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?

It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 

I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?

-I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

-Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

-What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

-Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?

I'm responding in order of the bolded:

How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

Meanwhile, one side seems to be hellbent on provoking violence and has actually done some shooting. But no "concern" from some. Typical.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/bethel-ohio-black-lives-counterprotest/

In what she called her longest-ever Facebook post, Alicia Gee said she was preparing on a cheerful Sunday morning not for church but for a demonstration “long overdue in my little town."

“A demonstration to show my neighbors there are people who care, to show my very monochromatic town that Black Lives Matter,” said Gee, who identified herself as a lifelong resident of the village of Bethel, Ohio — population roughly 2,800. It was a testament to the wide reach of the movement against racism and police brutality convulsing the country since George Floyd’s death in police custody, weeks of demonstrations that have swept from cities to suburbs and tiny Midwestern towns that haven’t seen protests in decades.

But the 80 or so expected demonstrators ended up dwarfed Sunday afternoon by some 700 counterprotesters — motorcycle gangs, “back the blue” groups and proponents of the Second Amendment, village officials said. Some carried rifles, a local news station reported, while others brought baseball bats and clubs. Police say they are investigating about 10 “incidents” from the clashes that followed, including a demonstrator being punched in the head.

No one was arrested Sunday because police were overwhelmed to the point they had to focus on maintaining order and safety, he said; on Monday, more law enforcement from multiple agencies were there to help.

“It was a local group. It wasn’t an outside influencer coming to the village,” he said of the original demonstrators. Many of the counterprotesters, on the other hand, were from out of the town, some with out-of-state license plates on their motorcycles, he said.

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

“The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?

It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 

I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?

-I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

-Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

-What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

-Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?

I'm responding in order of the bolded:

How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 

I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

“The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?

It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 

I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?

-I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

-Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

-What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

-Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?

I'm responding in order of the bolded:

How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 

I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.

The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.

It is! With no cops, it's a haven for white supremacists (or whoever) to show up and cause chaos without having to worry about the police. What will happen then? A shootout with Raz and his crew? And when I say "another shooting," I'm following up your post about mass shootings; that I don't want to see a mass shooting and CHOP could be a place where some maniac tries something like that. I’m not saying there was already a shooting at CHOP, obviously. Wouldn’t we have already discussed it if there was?

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

“The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?

It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 

I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?

-I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

-Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

-What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

-Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?

I'm responding in order of the bolded:

How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 

I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.

The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.

It is! What aren't you getting about this? With no cops, it's a haven for white supremacists (or whoever) to show up and cause chaos without having to worry about the police. And when I say "another shooting," I'm following up your post about mass shootings; that I don't want to see a mass shooting and CHOP could be a place where some maniac tries something like that. 

As for the unrealistic demands, I'll just post demand #1. They aren't requests after all. They're demands. And this isn't realistic. Copied from your post....

"The Seattle Police Department and attached court system are beyond reform. We do not request reform, we demand abolition. We demand that the Seattle Council and the Mayor defund and abolish the Seattle Police Department and the attached Criminal Justice Apparatus. This means 100% of funding, including existing pensions for Seattle Police. At an equal level of priority we also demand that the city disallow the operations of ICE in the city of Seattle."

Well that's not going fucking happen. 100% of funding to the police department of a big city? You think that's a realistic demand?

If you'd like to have this discussion in Brian's thread, I'm happy to do so.

Thanks for the clarification as I thought you were referring to a shooting as already having happened by a CHOP protestor.

And in the list I posted, I clearly stated that some were pie in the sky and had no chance of being met. However, what if the demand you listed is somehow met in the middle or closer to the existing but changes were made. Is that a failure? A waste? What might it look like? I have no idea but I won't dismiss CHOP and their demands. Its the beginning of a dialog with the power structure and meaningful change can happen. Defund, to me, means re-organize, re-allocate resources, re-train, re-hire, as in reform the hiring process, and other systemic changes that make police less militarized and more community based. And what if a year from now CHOP still doesn't have a police presence and yet crime is no more prevalent than pre-CHOP?

Like I said, if you want to move this discussion over to Brian's thread, happy to do so.

Take a look at Ohio and New Mexico for white supremacists and cops and what has resulted. Team Trump Treason's got the bikers too.

Jeffbr, thanks for the information on what is and what isn’t allowed for the cops to do in Chop

Halifax, if CHOP is thriving a year from in its current setup, I’ll happily concede that you were right.