Seattle Has Fallen...

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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 25,085
    bbiggs said:
    I'm telling you folks, currency will be next.
    It’s all apps, Bitcoin, Apple Pay and debit and credit cards anyway.
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  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,953
    Smellyman said:
    bbiggs said:
    Once all the statues are down our currency will need to be changed next.
    I actually saw someone on Twitter the other day questioning if FDR should still be on the dime, because of the WW2 internment camps.
    That was certainly a low point in American history
    Yeah I don't disagree with that. 
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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 24,564
    bbiggs said:
    I'm telling you folks, currency will be next.
    It’s all apps, Bitcoin, Apple Pay and debit and credit cards anyway.
    Apps and apple pay and credit cards the powers that be like, it's Bitcoin that can't be traced that they don't.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 24,564
    So, is there any new footage of the CHOP zone lately?

    If that reporter has been a pillar of the news community in Seattle for a while that mob sure didn't know who the hell she was.  The fact that she works for FOX didn't help her cause either.

    If there is new footage I would like to see it.  For now I am down w CHOP.  No leaders equals chaos, simple as that.  The infighting should be coming next.

    The umbrella shield like the Spartans from 300 was a nice touch.  Maybe when the move in unison they can yell "awhoo, awhoo" and bang their chests too.
  • nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 4,037
    According to Rolling Stone , it’s still all good there. So it must be true. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 24,564
    nicknyr15 said:
    According to Rolling Stone , it’s still all good there. So it must be true. 
    Just wondering if because she worked for FOX if that is why they acted like that.  One of them clearly said "You are part of the problem" to that reporter.
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 23,691
    JW269453 said:
    jeffbr said:
    As someone who has generally supported its existence, I've cooled on it. It is a fine place while the sun is shining, but at night it has turned a bit of a shit show, unfortunately. There are 3 reasons why my support for CHAZ/CHOP has waned: 1) Lawlessness and assholes come out of the woodwork at night; 2) Confused and mixed messages, lack of clarity, multiple "leaders" and no leadership, inability to communicate a message in a coherent way, inability to unify and stick to agreements or negotiate responsibly; 3) the people in the autonomous zone have alienated all of the actual BLM and African American organizations who have existed and have been working with the city. So CHAZ/CHOP doesn't really represent the movement they purport to as far as I can tell. It looks like mostly white punks with some brown and black sprinkled in co-opting the BLM movement to me. There are some African Americans there, but it is a pretty white bunch of folks on the whole. I'm all for counter-culture, but I think they're really pushing it now. The neighborhoods around the area were generally supportive initially but now are done with them. I know a few people who live right there, and they've had it. Noise, partying and stupidity from sundown to sun-up. People are afraid to walk in their neighborhoods after dark. They had just negotiated re-opening a lane of traffic on a  thoroughfare for cars and emergency services. The Fire Chief had worked with the group to negotiate that, but 1 day later, other elements or new "leaders" decided from 10pm - 6pm they would block the street. So that group doesn't have any ability to negotiate or agree on anything, even among themselves. 

    To give you an idea of the shit heads that are keeping watch at CHOP, here is some raw video footage from Brandi Kruse, a local TV reporter. Brandi is one of the more intelligent reporters in Seattle, and is one of the least biased I've seen. She does a show called The Divide where she attempts to have differing viewpoints come together to find common ground. She'll bash left and right stupidity when it is warranted. Unfortunately, the station she works at was purchased this past year by Fox Network, but her time here pre-dates her Fox affiliation. Anyway, here is a link to some raw footage where she was mobbed and nearly assaulted by those assholes. So instead of having a shred of intellect, and attempting to get their message across through a news reporter, they harass and nearly assault her and her crew. BTW, her body guard in the green hoodie is the same guy who disarmed 2 of the shit-stirrers downtown a couple of weeks ago during the riots after the idiots stole AR-15s from cop cars. He's a bad-ass ex-Marine who could twist their pencil necks and snap them in two. Here's the footage. If the word fuck offends, you may want to pass, as that's probably heard >300 times in the 15 minute video. I highly recommend people watch this to get a picture of life after dark in CHOP:

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=600727890649078

    So at this point I stand with BLM, I support black leadership in the city, and stand against CHOP. They lost my support, the support of a lot of the neighborhood, the support of many established community organizers, and they're rapidly losing support of others who would normally align with their ideals but for their idiocy.  I know I supported CHAZ/CHOP initially, but they've demonstrated a remarkable inability to accomplish anything at all except chaos and confusion. If they get their shit together, I could see changing my mind about them yet again but for now I consider this a failed social experiment. BTW, yesterday the real AA community advocate organizations were able to get the Seattle Police Officers Guild kicked out of the King County Labor Council. The labor council is a group of various unions (about 150 of them) representing ~100k workers in Seattle. They have no desire to be associated with SPOG going forward. So they are still making change and accomplishing things. Can't say the same for CHOP. Sorry for the 180 on this one but it has become stupid. Anarchy is not practicable. At least not for people with limited intellectual ability as CHOP is currently demonstrating.
    Good insight from someone close to the situation. Thanks for sharing.
    Agreed, these kinds of sit ins or whatever they wanna be called are not something I’d want for my neighborhood! 
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  • nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 4,037
    nicknyr15 said:
    According to Rolling Stone , it’s still all good there. So it must be true. 
    Just wondering if because she worked for FOX if that is why they acted like that.  One of them clearly said "You are part of the problem" to that reporter.
    Yea, to me it doesn’t matter where she worked. Doesn’t give them the right to act like animals.
  • cutzcutz Posts: 9,408
    So, is there any new footage of the CHOP zone lately?

    If that reporter has been a pillar of the news community in Seattle for a while that mob sure didn't know who the hell she was.  The fact that she works for FOX didn't help her cause either.

    If there is new footage I would like to see it.  For now I am down w CHOP.  No leaders equals chaos, simple as that.  The infighting should be coming next.

    The umbrella shield like the Spartans from 300 was a nice touch.  Maybe when the move in unison they can yell "awhoo, awhoo" and bang their chests too.
    Not sure if this has been Posted before, but........









    May be disturbing:


  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 4,233
    nicknyr15 said:
    According to Rolling Stone , it’s still all good there. So it must be true. 
    Just wondering if because she worked for FOX if that is why they acted like that.  One of them clearly said "You are part of the problem" to that reporter.

    Yes, it was because FOX and it was before CHOP
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 7,147
    Smellyman said:
    nicknyr15 said:
    According to Rolling Stone , it’s still all good there. So it must be true. 
    Just wondering if because she worked for FOX if that is why they acted like that.  One of them clearly said "You are part of the problem" to that reporter.

    Yes, it was because FOX and it was before CHOP
    It was before CHOP, but technically it was the first night of CHAZ (tomato, tomahto). SPD abandoned the East Precinct earlier in the day, which was several nights into the protest/occupation of the streets around the precinct. Once the cops left, they claimed the space and dubbed it CHAZ.  FOX definitely had something to do with it, but some of those mouth breathers apparently didn't understand that she and 98% of the reporters at that station pre-date FOX's purchase of the station. But I understand nuance isn't part of many of those dorks' repertoires. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 7,147
    2am deadly shooting in CHOP last night. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • Ledbetterman10Ledbetterman10 Posts: 13,953
    edited June 20
    jeffbr said:
    2am deadly shooting in CHOP last night. 
    It was inevitable...as I’ve said throughout this entire thread. Hopefully they put an end to this crap now. Idiots. 
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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 5,075
    jeffbr said:
    2am deadly shooting in CHOP last night. 
    Really? Even after they were handing out guns to random strangers?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 31,981
    jeffbr said:
    2am deadly shooting in CHOP last night. 

    That's unfortunate.  How that relates to the social experiment that is CHOP could be seen in differing ways.  For example, if I were to read a headline that says, "Deadly Shooting in Sacramento Oak Park Neighborhood" I would have thought little of it because it is (sadly enough) a common occurrence there.  The same is true for any big city.  The question is, will we ever see an end to deadly shootings an densely populated urban areas?
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  • rustneversleepsrustneversleeps The Motel of Lost CompanionsPosts: 1,838
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 25,085
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    It’d be interesting to compare crime rates from the same period a year ago. Don’t know the history nor crime rates of that precinct or ward but how is one shooting indicative of anything in the absence of more details? Shootings happen every day in ‘Murica in cities big and small, with police present, and nobody bats an eye. Why is CHOP being held to a higher standard? If, over the same period of time a year ago there were 10 shootings, would you consider a 90% drop in shootings a success? I doubt it.

    At the time of my post, it was accurate and nor did I say it would remain thus forever. Hahaha.
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  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 7,147
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    It’d be interesting to compare crime rates from the same period a year ago. Don’t know the history nor crime rates of that precinct or ward but how is one shooting indicative of anything in the absence of more details? Shootings happen every day in ‘Murica in cities big and small, with police present, and nobody bats an eye. Why is CHOP being held to a higher standard? If, over the same period of time a year ago there were 10 shootings, would you consider a 90% drop in shootings a success? I doubt it.

    At the time of my post, it was accurate and nor did I say it would remain thus forever. Hahaha.
    Yeah, and we don't have any info about the shooting. Was it an internal conflict in the group, or did some wacko in a red drive upsup and blasting? I'm not blaming this on the CHOP occupants at this point. Not enough info, yet. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 25,085
    jeffbr said:
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    It’d be interesting to compare crime rates from the same period a year ago. Don’t know the history nor crime rates of that precinct or ward but how is one shooting indicative of anything in the absence of more details? Shootings happen every day in ‘Murica in cities big and small, with police present, and nobody bats an eye. Why is CHOP being held to a higher standard? If, over the same period of time a year ago there were 10 shootings, would you consider a 90% drop in shootings a success? I doubt it.

    At the time of my post, it was accurate and nor did I say it would remain thus forever. Hahaha.
    Yeah, and we don't have any info about the shooting. Was it an internal conflict in the group, or did some wacko in a red drive upsup and blasting? I'm not blaming this on the CHOP occupants at this point. Not enough info, yet. 
    The one article I found, NY Post, was someone pulled up in a black SUV, exited the vehicle with a rifle. It was after the conclusion of Juneteenth celebrations. Two victims transported to a hospital by private car, one died. Thus far, lacking specific details. Coulda been a Proud Boy, Bugaloo, BLM’er, ANTIFA or just another angry white male with access to firearms.
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  • AKRounder85AKRounder85 PhilaPosts: 245
    jeffbr said:
    2am deadly shooting in CHOP last night. 
    Time to shut it down before it gets worse.
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  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 11,431
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    You’re happy about a shooting because you believe it proves your point? That’s kinda sick. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • nicknyr15nicknyr15 Posts: 4,037
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    You’re happy about a shooting because you believe it proves your point? That’s kinda sick. 
    Im not defending him laughing, let’s be clear. But it’s no different than wishing Covid on those people protesting to get back to work. Both sides wish anything ,bad or good to prove their point. Which is why I hate politics. 
  • rustneversleepsrustneversleeps The Motel of Lost CompanionsPosts: 1,838
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    You’re happy about a shooting because you believe it proves your point? That’s kinda sick. 
    i laugh at halifax and his endless keyboard diarrhea. when have i made "my point" in this thread eh? you have no clue what my view is. eh.
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  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 25,085
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    You’re happy about a shooting because you believe it proves your point? That’s kinda sick. 
    i laugh at halifax and his endless keyboard diarrhea. when have i made "my point" in this thread eh? you have no clue what my view is. eh.
    Seems like you never woke. Hahaha. Feel free to counter my “diarrhea.” Maybe with a moist wipe?
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  • rustneversleepsrustneversleeps The Motel of Lost CompanionsPosts: 1,838
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    You’re happy about a shooting because you believe it proves your point? That’s kinda sick. 
    i laugh at halifax and his endless keyboard diarrhea. when have i made "my point" in this thread eh? you have no clue what my view is. eh.
    Seems like you never woke. Hahaha. Feel free to counter my “diarrhea.” Maybe with a moist wipe?
    ironically, i agree with your views. so there usually is nothing to counter. but your delivery is as embarrassing as trump himself.

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  • cutzcutz Posts: 9,408

    https://www.axios.com/seattle-shooting-one-dead-protests-65903625-8eb7-4f8b-9ad3-c3721c3af9df.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic


    Shooting leaves one dead in Seattle's protest zone


    A 19-year-old male has been fatally shot and another male remains in critical condition following an early morning shooting inside Seattle's protest zone known as Capitol Hill Organized Protest (CHOP), according to the Seattle Police Department.

    The state of play: The shooting took place around 2:30 a.m. local time near downtown Seattle. The police say they attempted to find the shooting victim, "but were met by a violent crowd that prevented officers safe access to the victim." SPD does not currently have anyone in custody. Investigators are reviewing public-source video and body-camera video for more information, Seattle Police Sgt. Lauren Truscott told The Seattle Times.

    Editor's note: This is a developing story. Please check back for updates

  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 25,085
    And because there couldn't possibly be "responsible" gun owners like this in Seattle, right?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/

    “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

    This is exactly what I'm talking about with my last post regarding Seattle when I said "If anything, it'll likely be crazy far-right people that cause problems. But it will be the left's fault for allowing the lawlessness." 

    Another reference to “lawlessness.” Do you know the political leanings of the “responsible” gun owner passing out guns from the back of their car? Because it’s not like the right has ever misrepresented itself to embarrass the other side, right? That’s never happened, right?

    So, do you think open carry is a good or bad thing, particularly at protests?
    It doesn't matter what the political leanings of the individuals are. When I say the Seattle protests are "left" and the lockdown protests are "right," I mean it by who's championing and endorsing them. The Seattle protests are "left" because the left endorses them. The left is all about CHOP, and the right is critical. The lockdown protests were "right" because the right were all for them, and the left was critical. 
    I haven’t “championed” CHOP. I’m just not as outraged as some nor consider it “lawless.” FFS, some posters were all hell bent out of shape about the “armed guards” and alleged “extortion” reports that came out but are perfectly fine with “armed militias” parading around state houses. One is a reaction to actual freedoms being taken away, namely and predominantly black lives,  and the other is a perceived loss of freedom, I can’t go to the store without a mask, during a pandemic. But both sides are the same. Are these really that difficult for you to discern? And as far as handing out firearms from the back of a car goes, isn’t that what happens probably every day in Chicago with gun runners buying in Indianer? Why the Seattle instance of outrage?
    -I said the left championed (or "endorses") CHOP. I'm talking about the liberal media and their disciples.

    -Bent out of shape? Who's bent out of shape? I'm just saying that armed dudes walking around with AR-15's with no police presence could be an issue. YOU seem bent out of shape by the dissenting views of me and some others. Brianlux started a new thread called "The CHAZ movement" if you want to head over there and praise the drum circles of CHOP. 

    -What are you doing comparing WHAT they're protesting for (black equality versus ending lockdowns)? I'm all for the people protesting for equality, and I thought the lockdown protests were dumb. That's not the point. It's how they're going about it; surrendering a police station, giving the protesters blocks of the town? It's not the protesters I'm critical of. Hell, if there was a big block party like this in my town, I'd probably go to. It's not the protesters, most of whom I'm sure really want equality, that are the problem. It's leadership. What's the end game here?

    -Does that happen in Chicago every day? You're the one that spends each day seaching the internet for gun violence. So if people hand out firearms out of their cars in Chicago, the murder capital of the country, then isn't it cause for concern that it's happening in CHOP?
    I'm responding in order of the bolded:

    How has the left and their disciples "championed" CHOP? By not misrepresenting the actual conditions and inflaming the right with lies? Where is this championing that you speak of? Compare that to Faux news' deliberate incitement of their viewers as reported in the Politico piece.

    I think armed dudes walking around with AR-15s with or without a police presence is an issue. Again, why the need to pen carry? What were the state house protestors afraid of? Its only to intimidate.

    I'm not bent out of shape as much as I'm disagreeing with your view that CHOP is "lawless" and needs to be shut down, as evidenced by the bolded leadership piece. You and others appear to be buying the Faux news narrative or maybe relying upon Twitterers for the reality on the ground. I question that and rely upon multiple news outlets for some version of reality. Its all doom and gloom from your posts, screaming about the "end game." The end game has yet to be determined but most likely may consist of some of those things in the list of 32 demands that I posted in Brian's CHAZ Movement thread. Why the derision? Feel free to rip those apart. Would you prefer violence and tanks in the streets? Maybe you agree with Team Trump Treason to send in the troops? Is there murder and mayhem and extortion happening within the 4 blocks? What is so "lawless" about what is happening in CHOP? Thus far, what has been the impact of the "surrendered police station?" And why the guns at protests? Any protests? If not to intimidate, why feel it necessary to "open carry" when rallying at the state house or anywhere? Your opinions don't bend me out of shape.

    I don't search the internet every day searching for gun violence but do post what I see when I check my news feed and other sources of news and information. Yea, 20 first and second graders being murdered in their classroom a week or so before Christmas still bothers me. As does Columbine, Virginia Tech, Pulse Nightclub, Marjorie Stoneham, Las Vegas, etc. etc, etc, How about you? Does that bother you or still resonate with you? Its pretty well known that the "Iron Pipeline" exists between states and localities with strict gun control and those without. You're smarter than that. Again, who was the person passing out firearms? ANTIFA? Bugaloo? Proud Boy? KKK? Commie? I'm surprised the NRA hasn't chimed in yet with a fundraising drive and encouragement to arm yourselves because what is happening in Seattle is coming for your town. So far, we've had a right-winger counter protester drive his car into a crowd and shoot someone upon exiting in Seattle and another one shooting someone in New Mexico. Where is the "liberal, lefty, ANTIFA, commie, etc." gun violence? Yes, the proliferation and ease of access to firearms is an issue regardless of locale or source. You know that's my position.

    You rely upon multple news outlets for some version of reality? You said in the first post I quoted today that there were no firearms there. By me relying on Twitterers on the ground, I was able to show that's completely wrong. You seem to pick and choose the aspects of reality you want to acknowledge. 

    As for the second bolded part, I don't know why these people have guns. Probably to inimidate like you say. The guy handing out the guns was Raz Simone. People have alleged he's the leader of CHOP, but there's no way of me confirming that. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not a Proud Boy or a member of the KKK though.

    And the third bolded part is just typical you. I'm the one that opened the door for you to even know there were guns there (your multiple news outlets didn't seem to know). I'm the one that suggested it's a problem that there's guns there like that. And yet you virtue signal by listing a bunch of massacres that bother you and question whether they bother me? I'm the one showing concern for the safety of the peaceful protesters there...in hopes that there isn't another shooting death.

    Typically, when multiple news outlets report generaly the same information, you can glean that theres some truth to it. Why would guns in Seattle, an open carry state, be any differenct than elsewhere with open carry laws? Yet, you seem concernced because its CHOP? I'm concerned with open carry everywhere. Its why I won't step foot in Tejas or Florida.

    Pretty big assumption on your part to state that the CHOP protesters with guns are armed to "intimidate." Maybe its to protect themselves from the Proud Boys, right wing militias and Bugaloos? Seems more likely from the reporting I've read. I'm surprised that you didn't refer to Raz as a "terrorist warlord." Maybe he's undercover for the Proud Boys or KKK? I kid so lighten up.

    Why is it a problem there are guns there? You didn't seem to care there were guns at the state house protests? I responded to your accustaion that I spend my days looking for gun violence stories in the press and explained my reason for posting gun violence and "responsible" gun owner stories. Because yes, I'm still bothered by mass shootings. I'm sorry you consider that "virtual signaling." What's next, a snowflake reference? 
    I can't believe you're still bringing up those state house protests. I did think that it was stupid that they were carrying guns. And the virtue signaling isn't you still being bothered by mass shootings, it's the snarky implication that I'm not. 

    And yeah, the guns could be to protect themselves from right-wing extremists. Like I said earlier, that's where the problems will likely come from if there's any. 

    The difference between CHOP and all other open carry sections of the country are police, per the mayor, aren't allowed at CHOP. Police are allowed at nearly all other places. Couple that with a moron passing out guns from his car, civil unrest, tensions, unrealistic demands from protesters to the city, and it could be an issue. I'll be happy to be wrong on this. Maybe it turns into some hippie utopia where they all live in harmony for ever and ever. That'd be fine with me. But maybe it doesn't.
    The difference between CHOP and the right is that within CHOP thus far, there hasn’t been a shooting despite your desire that there not be “another” as you stated at the end of your previous post. And in the absence of police within CHOP what violence has occurred? Yet, at other protests with police, violence has occurred by “right” protestors.

    What unrealistic demands are being made by CHOP? That they be left alone by law enforcement for the time being? Why is the absence of police going to inevitably lead to violence? Seems it’s the right wing nut jobs you should be concerned about.

    Maybe it leads to positive social change and a stronger interconnected community with less police violence perpetrated on minorities? Maybe not? But surely Seattle has fallen and it’s the end of ‘Murica as we know it.
    hahaha
    You’re happy about a shooting because you believe it proves your point? That’s kinda sick. 
    i laugh at halifax and his endless keyboard diarrhea. when have i made "my point" in this thread eh? you have no clue what my view is. eh.
    Seems like you never woke. Hahaha. Feel free to counter my “diarrhea.” Maybe with a moist wipe?
    ironically, i agree with your views. so there usually is nothing to counter. but your delivery is as embarrassing as trump himself.

    T3  
    Wow. Okay. But you be you and I’ll be me. ‘Murica, yo!
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  • Patrick_Sea3Patrick_Sea3 West SeattlePosts: 657
    jeffbr said:
    2am deadly shooting in CHOP last night. 
    The Chops days are probably numbered now.
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 23,691
    Yeah this experiment needs to be shut down at this point!
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
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