Police abuse

rgambs said:

My solution, which I've laid out here in detail a few times, is the opposite: Flood the profession with money.  Starting salaries in excess of $100,000 across the board, but in conjunction with MASSIVELY more strict qualifications.  Massive increases in training and continuing education.  Massive increases in performance evaluation.  
You shouldn't be able to join a police force if you can't get accepted to a competitive undergraduate program.  Best and brightest only.  

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

My solution, which I've laid out here in detail a few times, is the opposite: Flood the profession with money.  Starting salaries in excess of $100,000 across the board, but in conjunction with MASSIVELY more strict qualifications.  Massive increases in training and continuing education.  Massive increases in performance evaluation.  
You shouldn't be able to join a police force if you can't get accepted to a competitive undergraduate program.  Best and brightest only.  

Great post. Another idea could be to put money towards independent "watchdog" organizations tasked with oversight of police departments. Someone to hold them accountable. The cop that killed Floyd had like 12 violations in his career but was never disciplined. That's on his chief. There has to be someone above that chief to determine if action should be taken in circumstances like that. 

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

My solution, which I've laid out here in detail a few times, is the opposite: Flood the profession with money.  Starting salaries in excess of $100,000 across the board, but in conjunction with MASSIVELY more strict qualifications.  Massive increases in training and continuing education.  Massive increases in performance evaluation.  
You shouldn't be able to join a police force if you can't get accepted to a competitive undergraduate program.  Best and brightest only.  

Great post. Another idea could be to put money towards independent "watchdog" organizations tasked with oversight of police departments. Someone to hold them accountable. The cop that killed Floyd had like 12 violations in his career but was never disciplined. That's on his chief. There has to be someone above that chief to determine if action should be taken in circumstances like that. 

Isn't IA supposed to do that job?  Police the police?

OnWis97 said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

My solution, which I've laid out here in detail a few times, is the opposite: Flood the profession with money.  Starting salaries in excess of $100,000 across the board, but in conjunction with MASSIVELY more strict qualifications.  Massive increases in training and continuing education.  Massive increases in performance evaluation.  
You shouldn't be able to join a police force if you can't get accepted to a competitive undergraduate program.  Best and brightest only.  

Great post. Another idea could be to put money towards independent "watchdog" organizations tasked with oversight of police departments. Someone to hold them accountable. The cop that killed Floyd had like 12 violations in his career but was never disciplined. That's on his chief. There has to be someone above that chief to determine if action should be taken in circumstances like that. 

Isn't IA supposed to do that job?  Police the police?

I'm not familiar with IA. I figured there must be an organization that is supposed to do that....but it sure doesn't seem to be working.

So what's IA? Obviously, my google search just led me to Iowa. 

Internal Affairs, but it's part of the same department, staffed by cops.  Probably a lot of social pressure there to look the other way.  I don't know that...or much about IA, but some non-cops (i.e., not payed by the police department and not friends with the people they're looking into) need to be involved.

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

gimmesometruth27 said: 

dignin said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Not a single post in this on this board (at least according to the search function) about this poor man that was murdered earlier in the week during the riots. Not surprising. His name was David Dorn, a 77-year-old former police chief that tried to help protect businesses in St. Louis during the riots, and was murdered in cold blood. His death as he bled out on the street was livestreamed on facebook. Very sad. 

Why was a 77 year old out there trying to protect businesses? He should have known better.

Just so I'm clear that's sarcasm. It's a horrible story.

Also, I think I did read about that here but maybe without the name of the victim.

this was big news here in stl. from what i have seen he is kind of viewed as an uncle tom by protesters that were interviewed. it is really sad for sure though. 

i guess the lesson here is if there is an angry mob coming at you to try to destroy something, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to lay down your life for someone else's property.

Which raises concerns about policing going forward. Of course the main concern everyone wants addressed is equality in policing so that minorities aren't targeted like Floyd and others have been. But another problem is....who the fuck is going to want to be a police officer? It's already the most dangerous and most important job there is. They're woefully underpaid. Folks on the left are calling to defund police departments. If you're a cop and the mob comes for you, what do you do? Stand your ground and protect citizens? Or protect yourself? The whole situation sucks. From the systemic racism, to the riots, to the good cops being vilified by the public, to the bad cops being protected by their departments....we're in ugly times. Hopefully something good actually comes of these Floyd protests. 

I don't think it's even in the top 15...

I'd love to hear the 15 jobs you think are as dangerous or more dangerous than being a police officer. I'll even start the list for you. 

1) Military
2) Firefighting

That's a start, what are the other 13? 

Logging, anything on a boat, most forms of construction...

I got ya. I guess I'll rephrase to say policing has the a lot of unspecified (and thus, hard to prepare for) danger to it. You don't know who or what you're going to run into. Most of those jobs in that "top 10 most dangerous jobs" you posted have more specified dangers (accidents in transportation being the most common it seems), so you know the safety precautions to take. 

There's definitely a unique aspect to the danger in policing.

Yeah and with public-trust in policing eroding, coupled with low wages, and folks calling for police departments to be defunded, I worry how many people will even want to be cops and deal with those dangers going forward. And the saddest part is, the bad cops will probably still want to be cops because they have ego/racist/control issues they they take out on people through crooked policing. But the good people that want to be cops might not think it's worth the trouble at this rate. Could lead to even more bad cops in power. 

I keep reading that "people want to defund the police" or "disband police".

Where the hell did this come from?

Angry protest rhetoric, mostly.  It's out there, but it isn't all that serious, IMO.

HesCalledDyer said:

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

gimmesometruth27 said: 

dignin said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Not a single post in this on this board (at least according to the search function) about this poor man that was murdered earlier in the week during the riots. Not surprising. His name was David Dorn, a 77-year-old former police chief that tried to help protect businesses in St. Louis during the riots, and was murdered in cold blood. His death as he bled out on the street was livestreamed on facebook. Very sad. 

Why was a 77 year old out there trying to protect businesses? He should have known better.

Just so I'm clear that's sarcasm. It's a horrible story.

Also, I think I did read about that here but maybe without the name of the victim.

this was big news here in stl. from what i have seen he is kind of viewed as an uncle tom by protesters that were interviewed. it is really sad for sure though. 

i guess the lesson here is if there is an angry mob coming at you to try to destroy something, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to lay down your life for someone else's property.

Which raises concerns about policing going forward. Of course the main concern everyone wants addressed is equality in policing so that minorities aren't targeted like Floyd and others have been. But another problem is....who the fuck is going to want to be a police officer? It's already the most dangerous and most important job there is. They're woefully underpaid. Folks on the left are calling to defund police departments. If you're a cop and the mob comes for you, what do you do? Stand your ground and protect citizens? Or protect yourself? The whole situation sucks. From the systemic racism, to the riots, to the good cops being vilified by the public, to the bad cops being protected by their departments....we're in ugly times. Hopefully something good actually comes of these Floyd protests. 

I don't think it's even in the top 15...

I'd love to hear the 15 jobs you think are as dangerous or more dangerous than being a police officer. I'll even start the list for you. 

1) Military
2) Firefighting

That's a start, what are the other 13? 

Logging, anything on a boat, most forms of construction...

I got ya. I guess I'll rephrase to say policing has the a lot of unspecified (and thus, hard to prepare for) danger to it. You don't know who or what you're going to run into. Most of those jobs in that "top 10 most dangerous jobs" you posted have more specified dangers (accidents in transportation being the most common it seems), so you know the safety precautions to take. 

There's definitely a unique aspect to the danger in policing.

Yeah and with public-trust in policing eroding, coupled with low wages, and folks calling for police departments to be defunded, I worry how many people will even want to be cops and deal with those dangers going forward. And the saddest part is, the bad cops will probably still want to be cops because they have ego/racist/control issues they they take out on people through crooked policing. But the good people that want to be cops might not think it's worth the trouble at this rate. Could lead to even more bad cops in power. 

I keep reading that "people want to defund the police" or "disband police".

Where the hell did this come from?

Angry protest rhetoric, mostly.  It's out there, but it isn't all that serious, IMO.

Plenty of Minneapolis organizations have already terminated contracts with the MPD.  The Los Angeles mayor is slashing $150million in funds from the LAPD's budget.  It's not just angry protest rhetoric, serious action is beginning to take place.  Let's hope it continues because this shit needs fixed.  But it runs deep for over 400 years, so it isn't gonna happen overnight.

mace1229 said:

rgambs said:

My solution, which I've laid out here in detail a few times, is the opposite: Flood the profession with money.  Starting salaries in excess of $100,000 across the board, but in conjunction with MASSIVELY more strict qualifications.  Massive increases in training and continuing education.  Massive increases in performance evaluation.  
You shouldn't be able to join a police force if you can't get accepted to a competitive undergraduate program.  Best and brightest only.  

2 problems I see with this. Many won’t go for a tax increase if it’s going to cops. But that’s the smaller issue.
The bigger one is this isn’t a quick fix. it would take 20-30 years of this massive increase in salary and requirements to really see a difference. They can’t just fire the 600,000 cops we have now, not without major lawsuits that would bankrupt the counties and cities. So even if you start this today, it will be 20+ years before the majority of cops we have now have left.

tbergs said:

HesCalledDyer said:

rgambs said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

rgambs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

gimmesometruth27 said: 

dignin said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Not a single post in this on this board (at least according to the search function) about this poor man that was murdered earlier in the week during the riots. Not surprising. His name was David Dorn, a 77-year-old former police chief that tried to help protect businesses in St. Louis during the riots, and was murdered in cold blood. His death as he bled out on the street was livestreamed on facebook. Very sad. 

Why was a 77 year old out there trying to protect businesses? He should have known better.

Just so I'm clear that's sarcasm. It's a horrible story.

Also, I think I did read about that here but maybe without the name of the victim.

this was big news here in stl. from what i have seen he is kind of viewed as an uncle tom by protesters that were interviewed. it is really sad for sure though. 

i guess the lesson here is if there is an angry mob coming at you to try to destroy something, you have to ask yourself if you are willing to lay down your life for someone else's property.

Which raises concerns about policing going forward. Of course the main concern everyone wants addressed is equality in policing so that minorities aren't targeted like Floyd and others have been. But another problem is....who the fuck is going to want to be a police officer? It's already the most dangerous and most important job there is. They're woefully underpaid. Folks on the left are calling to defund police departments. If you're a cop and the mob comes for you, what do you do? Stand your ground and protect citizens? Or protect yourself? The whole situation sucks. From the systemic racism, to the riots, to the good cops being vilified by the public, to the bad cops being protected by their departments....we're in ugly times. Hopefully something good actually comes of these Floyd protests. 

I don't think it's even in the top 15...

I'd love to hear the 15 jobs you think are as dangerous or more dangerous than being a police officer. I'll even start the list for you. 

1) Military
2) Firefighting

That's a start, what are the other 13? 

Logging, anything on a boat, most forms of construction...

I got ya. I guess I'll rephrase to say policing has the a lot of unspecified (and thus, hard to prepare for) danger to it. You don't know who or what you're going to run into. Most of those jobs in that "top 10 most dangerous jobs" you posted have more specified dangers (accidents in transportation being the most common it seems), so you know the safety precautions to take. 

There's definitely a unique aspect to the danger in policing.

Yeah and with public-trust in policing eroding, coupled with low wages, and folks calling for police departments to be defunded, I worry how many people will even want to be cops and deal with those dangers going forward. And the saddest part is, the bad cops will probably still want to be cops because they have ego/racist/control issues they they take out on people through crooked policing. But the good people that want to be cops might not think it's worth the trouble at this rate. Could lead to even more bad cops in power. 

I keep reading that "people want to defund the police" or "disband police".

Where the hell did this come from?

Angry protest rhetoric, mostly.  It's out there, but it isn't all that serious, IMO.

Plenty of Minneapolis organizations have already terminated contracts with the MPD.  The Los Angeles mayor is slashing $150million in funds from the LAPD's budget.  It's not just angry protest rhetoric, serious action is beginning to take place.  Let's hope it continues because this shit needs fixed.  But it runs deep for over 400 years, so it isn't gonna happen overnight.

I will be interested to see the crime statistics for many of these cities in the next 5 years. Defunding and cutting staff isn't going to fix police brutality and abuse, it's going to exacerbate the problem by having less money for training, resources and staff to handle calls. Go ahead and say fuck the police all you want, but that isn't a solution either.