Biden vs Trump 2020 - vote now and discuss!
Comments
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Biden
Yeah for sure. The House is a rabble. It flips all the time. Any Democrat would be short sighted to make that argument based on the majority today, especially when gerrymandering continues to be a problem all over the country. I'm sure some idiots would make that argument, but not me.pjl44 said:
By the way, are you going to try and convince DEMOCRATS that THEY should be afraid of the HOUSE selecting the President? What exactly is the scenario where Biden wins a plurality and doesn't get inaugurated?mrussel1 said:
Right but that's a fantasy. There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution. Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence. And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so. So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.pjl44 said:
Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.mrussel1 said:
So what process are you proposing to change? The Electoral College? The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party. You're seeing that happen today. The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever. The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"0 -
BidenA Democrat installed by a House majority would be hamstrung in ways a Republican wouldn't. There would be constant questioning of the administration's legitimacy, no matter that the rules are clearly spelled out in the constitution. Fox News would champion tea party-style rallies from day one. Eventually mainstream pundits would go along for the ride.
___________________________________________
"...I changed by not changing at all..."0 -
Biden
Eh, future of our democracy at's stake. Who gives a shit amirite?pjl44 said:The Juggler said:
Has there ever been a worse time to attempt to change the system than with someone as inept and dangerous as Donald Trump on the ballot? I would like more choices as well, but this is sure as hell not the time to experiment with that. Good grief. You people better come to your senses in the next 6 months.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
Yes, I said "you people."
www.myspace.com0 -
I'm sitting this one out
If the House flips to Republicans in November, the 1824 election is the last thing you're gonna be thinking aboutmrussel1 said:
Yeah for sure. The House is a rabble. It flips all the time. Any Democrat would be short sighted to make that argument based on the majority today, especially when gerrymandering continues to be a problem all over the country. I'm sure some idiots would make that argument, but not me.pjl44 said:
By the way, are you going to try and convince DEMOCRATS that THEY should be afraid of the HOUSE selecting the President? What exactly is the scenario where Biden wins a plurality and doesn't get inaugurated?mrussel1 said:
Right but that's a fantasy. There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution. Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence. And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so. So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.pjl44 said:
Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.mrussel1 said:
So what process are you proposing to change? The Electoral College? The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party. You're seeing that happen today. The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever. The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"0 -
I'm sitting this one out
It is not thoThe Juggler said:
Eh, future of our democracy at's stake. Who gives a shit amirite?pjl44 said:The Juggler said:
Has there ever been a worse time to attempt to change the system than with someone as inept and dangerous as Donald Trump on the ballot? I would like more choices as well, but this is sure as hell not the time to experiment with that. Good grief. You people better come to your senses in the next 6 months.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
Yes, I said "you people."0 -
Yep. The Electoral College forces the two party system to happen. Dreaming of a third party to create change is a fantasy. Energy focused on getting big cash and corporate money out of politics is a much better path to go on.mrussel1 said:
That experience comment was about Amash being a libertarian for a minute. It was a dig at Libertarians, not Amash.pjl44 said:
Then fine. This is like the "experience" argument where people only wield it if it works in their candidate's favor. In June '92, Clinton was running third. There is no chance Ds would have considered throwing in the towel if that persisted, nor should they.mrussel1 said:
Right but that's a fantasy. There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution. Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence. And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so. So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.pjl44 said:
Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.mrussel1 said:
So what process are you proposing to change? The Electoral College? The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party. You're seeing that happen today. The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever. The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"Regardless, I don’t see how these arguments are the same. I’m always against third parties for the same practical purpose I outlined. The Constitution isn’t changing.0 -
Biden
Oh, but it is. Turn on the news. We are inching closer and closer by the hour.pjl44 said:
It is not thoThe Juggler said:
Eh, future of our democracy at's stake. Who gives a shit amirite?pjl44 said:The Juggler said:
Has there ever been a worse time to attempt to change the system than with someone as inept and dangerous as Donald Trump on the ballot? I would like more choices as well, but this is sure as hell not the time to experiment with that. Good grief. You people better come to your senses in the next 6 months.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
Yes, I said "you people."www.myspace.com0 -
Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party.Halifax2TheMax said:
One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties0 -
I'm sitting this one out
No, no, and also no. Counterpoint: Turn off the news.The Juggler said:
Oh, but it is. Turn on the news. We are inching closer and closer by the hour.pjl44 said:
It is not thoThe Juggler said:
Eh, future of our democracy at's stake. Who gives a shit amirite?pjl44 said:The Juggler said:
Has there ever been a worse time to attempt to change the system than with someone as inept and dangerous as Donald Trump on the ballot? I would like more choices as well, but this is sure as hell not the time to experiment with that. Good grief. You people better come to your senses in the next 6 months.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
Yes, I said "you people."0 -
Biden
The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican.Go Beavers said:
Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party.Halifax2TheMax said:
One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third partieswww.myspace.com0 -
I'm sitting this one outSpeaking of fantasy. Would you rather have Donald "Grabby" Trump, Joe "Sniffy" Biden or Justin "Flippy" Amash batting cleanup? I hope this settles everything for good.0
-
BidenThe Juggler said:
The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican.Go Beavers said:
Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party.Halifax2TheMax said:
One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
Good point! Really good point! Trump and his goons are a whole new bag, a whole new anti-Democracy bag.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I'm sitting this one out
On this, we agree! Minus the marriage equality, drugs, and civil liberties stuff. So maybe it's more the promise of what old school Republicans were supposed to be instead of how it actually played out. Either way, Trump managed to do what Pat Buchanan tried and failed at for years.The Juggler said:
The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican.Go Beavers said:
Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party.Halifax2TheMax said:
One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties0 -
BidenTrump simply pulled the mask off what the Republican Party has been for a long time. He enabled its worst elements, but those elements have always been there.
___________________________________________
"...I changed by not changing at all..."0 -
Biden
Non-sequitur, my friend.pjl44 said:
If the House flips to Republicans in November, the 1824 election is the last thing you're gonna be thinking aboutmrussel1 said:
Yeah for sure. The House is a rabble. It flips all the time. Any Democrat would be short sighted to make that argument based on the majority today, especially when gerrymandering continues to be a problem all over the country. I'm sure some idiots would make that argument, but not me.pjl44 said:
By the way, are you going to try and convince DEMOCRATS that THEY should be afraid of the HOUSE selecting the President? What exactly is the scenario where Biden wins a plurality and doesn't get inaugurated?mrussel1 said:
Right but that's a fantasy. There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution. Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence. And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so. So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.pjl44 said:
Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.mrussel1 said:
So what process are you proposing to change? The Electoral College? The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party. You're seeing that happen today. The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever. The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
And I'm always thinking about historical precedents.0 -
Biden
Which means Amash would have been better served running in the primary as an actual Republican.pjl44 said:
On this, we agree! Minus the marriage equality, drugs, and civil liberties stuff. So maybe it's more the promise of what old school Republicans were supposed to be instead of how it actually played out. Either way, Trump managed to do what Pat Buchanan tried and failed at for years.The Juggler said:
The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican.Go Beavers said:
Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party.Halifax2TheMax said:
One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third partieswww.myspace.com0 -
-
Biden
Ah... it comes back to my point earlier. Trump changed the party to a populist one. Pitchfork Buchananites is the perfect example, there were enough Rockefellers alive to stop him. The Libertarians are the ones that are left behind right now. Teh Republicans are no longer a coalition force, then are isolated ideologically. The Democrats are the coalition. There's a place for you... come sit with us....pjl44 said:
On this, we agree! Minus the marriage equality, drugs, and civil liberties stuff. So maybe it's more the promise of what old school Republicans were supposed to be instead of how it actually played out. Either way, Trump managed to do what Pat Buchanan tried and failed at for years.The Juggler said:
The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican.Go Beavers said:
Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party.Halifax2TheMax said:
One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties0 -
I'm sitting this one out
I was using it similarly. Basically, if you told me today that Republicans would flip the house, Biden imploded.mrussel1 said:
Non-sequitur, my friend.pjl44 said:
If the House flips to Republicans in November, the 1824 election is the last thing you're gonna be thinking aboutmrussel1 said:
Yeah for sure. The House is a rabble. It flips all the time. Any Democrat would be short sighted to make that argument based on the majority today, especially when gerrymandering continues to be a problem all over the country. I'm sure some idiots would make that argument, but not me.pjl44 said:
By the way, are you going to try and convince DEMOCRATS that THEY should be afraid of the HOUSE selecting the President? What exactly is the scenario where Biden wins a plurality and doesn't get inaugurated?mrussel1 said:
Right but that's a fantasy. There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution. Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence. And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so. So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.pjl44 said:
Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.mrussel1 said:
So what process are you proposing to change? The Electoral College? The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party. You're seeing that happen today. The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever. The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.pjl44 said:
"Look at this bad process"mrussel1 said:
Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding.pjl44 said:
That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario.mrussel1 said:
The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on. Right now, third parties are simply spoilers. But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House. Is that really want we want? Do we want a repeat of 1824? I think not.pjl44 said:
I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:mrussel1 said:
- If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record
- I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties
"Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"
"No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"
"Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
And I'm always thinking about historical precedents.0
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