Biden vs Trump 2020 - vote now and discuss!

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Comments

  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    Biden
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    So what process are you proposing to change?  The Electoral College?  The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party.  You're seeing that happen today.  The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever.  The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.  
    Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.
    Right but that's a fantasy.  There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution.  Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence.  And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so.  So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.  
    By the way, are you going to try and convince DEMOCRATS that THEY should be afraid of the HOUSE selecting the President? What exactly is the scenario where Biden wins a plurality and doesn't get inaugurated?
    Yeah for sure.  The House is a rabble.  It flips all the time.  Any Democrat would be short sighted to make that argument based on the majority today, especially when gerrymandering continues to be a problem all over the country.  I'm sure some idiots would make that argument, but not me.  
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,598
    Biden
    A Democrat installed by a House majority would be hamstrung in ways a Republican wouldn't. There would be constant questioning of the administration's legitimacy, no matter that the rules are clearly spelled out in the constitution. Fox News would champion tea party-style rallies from day one. Eventually mainstream pundits would go along for the ride.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    Biden
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    Has there ever been a worse time to attempt to change the system than with someone as inept and dangerous as Donald Trump on the ballot? I would like more choices as well, but this is sure as hell not the time to experiment with that. Good grief. You people better come to your senses in the next 6 months.

    Yes, I said "you people."

    Eh, future of our democracy at's stake. Who gives a shit amirite?
    www.myspace.com
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,525
    I'm sitting this one out
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    So what process are you proposing to change?  The Electoral College?  The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party.  You're seeing that happen today.  The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever.  The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.  
    Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.
    Right but that's a fantasy.  There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution.  Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence.  And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so.  So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.  
    By the way, are you going to try and convince DEMOCRATS that THEY should be afraid of the HOUSE selecting the President? What exactly is the scenario where Biden wins a plurality and doesn't get inaugurated?
    Yeah for sure.  The House is a rabble.  It flips all the time.  Any Democrat would be short sighted to make that argument based on the majority today, especially when gerrymandering continues to be a problem all over the country.  I'm sure some idiots would make that argument, but not me.  
    If the House flips to Republicans in November, the 1824 election is the last thing you're gonna be thinking about 
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,525
    I'm sitting this one out
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    Has there ever been a worse time to attempt to change the system than with someone as inept and dangerous as Donald Trump on the ballot? I would like more choices as well, but this is sure as hell not the time to experiment with that. Good grief. You people better come to your senses in the next 6 months.

    Yes, I said "you people."

    Eh, future of our democracy at's stake. Who gives a shit amirite?
    It is not tho
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,546
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    So what process are you proposing to change?  The Electoral College?  The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party.  You're seeing that happen today.  The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever.  The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.  
    Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.
    Right but that's a fantasy.  There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution.  Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence.  And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so.  So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.  
    Then fine. This is like the "experience" argument where people only wield it if it works in their candidate's favor. In June '92, Clinton was running third. There is no chance Ds would have considered throwing in the towel if that persisted, nor should they.
    That experience comment was about Amash being a libertarian for a minute.  It was a dig at Libertarians, not Amash.  

    Regardless, I don’t see how these arguments are the same.  I’m always against third parties for the same practical purpose I outlined.  The Constitution isn’t changing.
    Yep. The Electoral College forces the two party system to happen. Dreaming of a third party to create change is a fantasy. Energy focused on getting big cash and corporate money out of politics is a much better path to go on. 
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    Biden
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    Has there ever been a worse time to attempt to change the system than with someone as inept and dangerous as Donald Trump on the ballot? I would like more choices as well, but this is sure as hell not the time to experiment with that. Good grief. You people better come to your senses in the next 6 months.

    Yes, I said "you people."

    Eh, future of our democracy at's stake. Who gives a shit amirite?
    It is not tho
    Oh, but it is. Turn on the news. We are inching closer and closer by the hour. 
    www.myspace.com
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,546
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.
    Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party. 
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,525
    I'm sitting this one out
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    Has there ever been a worse time to attempt to change the system than with someone as inept and dangerous as Donald Trump on the ballot? I would like more choices as well, but this is sure as hell not the time to experiment with that. Good grief. You people better come to your senses in the next 6 months.

    Yes, I said "you people."

    Eh, future of our democracy at's stake. Who gives a shit amirite?
    It is not tho
    Oh, but it is. Turn on the news. We are inching closer and closer by the hour. 
    No, no, and also no. Counterpoint: Turn off the news.
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    Biden
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.
    Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party. 
    The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican. 
    www.myspace.com
  • FiveBelow
    FiveBelow Posts: 1,332
    I'm sitting this one out
    Speaking of fantasy. Would you rather have Donald "Grabby" Trump, Joe "Sniffy" Biden or Justin "Flippy" Amash batting cleanup? I hope this settles everything for good.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    Biden
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.
    Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party. 
    The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican. 

    Good point!  Really good point!  Trump and his goons are a whole new bag, a whole new anti-Democracy bag.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,525
    I'm sitting this one out
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.
    Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party. 
    The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican. 
    On this, we agree! Minus the marriage equality, drugs, and civil liberties stuff. So maybe it's more the promise of what old school Republicans were supposed to be instead of how it actually played out. Either way, Trump managed to do what Pat Buchanan tried and failed at for years.
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,598
    Biden
    Trump simply pulled the mask off what the Republican Party has been for a long time. He enabled its worst elements, but those elements have always been there.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    Biden
    JW269453 said:
    Speaking of fantasy. Would you rather have Donald "Grabby" Trump, Joe "Sniffy" Biden or Justin "Flippy" Amash batting cleanup? I hope this settles everything for good.
    Don't sabre metrics tell us it's all about the three hole?
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    Biden
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    So what process are you proposing to change?  The Electoral College?  The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party.  You're seeing that happen today.  The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever.  The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.  
    Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.
    Right but that's a fantasy.  There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution.  Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence.  And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so.  So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.  
    By the way, are you going to try and convince DEMOCRATS that THEY should be afraid of the HOUSE selecting the President? What exactly is the scenario where Biden wins a plurality and doesn't get inaugurated?
    Yeah for sure.  The House is a rabble.  It flips all the time.  Any Democrat would be short sighted to make that argument based on the majority today, especially when gerrymandering continues to be a problem all over the country.  I'm sure some idiots would make that argument, but not me.  
    If the House flips to Republicans in November, the 1824 election is the last thing you're gonna be thinking about 
    Non-sequitur, my friend.  

    And I'm always thinking about historical precedents.  
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    Biden
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.
    Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party. 
    The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican. 
    On this, we agree! Minus the marriage equality, drugs, and civil liberties stuff. So maybe it's more the promise of what old school Republicans were supposed to be instead of how it actually played out. Either way, Trump managed to do what Pat Buchanan tried and failed at for years.
    Which means Amash would have been better served running in the primary as an actual Republican. 
    www.myspace.com
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,525
    I'm sitting this one out
    mrussel1 said:
    JW269453 said:
    Speaking of fantasy. Would you rather have Donald "Grabby" Trump, Joe "Sniffy" Biden or Justin "Flippy" Amash batting cleanup? I hope this settles everything for good.
    Don't sabre metrics tell us it's all about the three hole?
    Two hole!
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    Biden
    pjl44 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    One former repub becoming a libertarian while already in congress does not a third party make.
    Amash just comes across as a republican willing to criticize trump, which at this point I suppose is a third party. 
    The third party is really Trump and this version of the Republican party. Amash is an old school Republican. 
    On this, we agree! Minus the marriage equality, drugs, and civil liberties stuff. So maybe it's more the promise of what old school Republicans were supposed to be instead of how it actually played out. Either way, Trump managed to do what Pat Buchanan tried and failed at for years.
    Ah... it comes back to my point earlier.  Trump changed the party to a populist one.  Pitchfork Buchananites is the perfect example, there were enough Rockefellers alive to stop him.  The Libertarians are the ones that are left behind right now.  Teh Republicans are no longer a coalition force, then are isolated ideologically.  The Democrats are the coalition.  There's a place for you... come sit with us....
  • pjl44
    pjl44 Posts: 10,525
    I'm sitting this one out
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    There has been a Libertarian in Congress for a week now and the Constitution has not spontaneously combusted
    He also hasn't accomplished anything.  
    Neither had Obama, but people only use the experience excuse if it runs in their favor. 
    I would argue Obama sponsored and co-sponsored more legislation in his short senate career than Amash has during his time as a Libertarian.  
    He's been in Congress for a decade
    As a Republican...  
    I'm not sure what this cheeky merry-go-round is about, but my points are this:

    - If someone is considering voting for Amash, they'll consider his positions and full record

    - I bring up the Libertarian-in-Congress point to (1) express joy at a milestone and (2) counter inane, convoluted arguments about third parties 
    The points about third party in the presidential race are not inane, it's spot on.  Right now, third parties are simply spoilers.  But if we had three viable parties, you would have every election decided by the House.  Is that really want we want?  Do we want a repeat of 1824?  I think not.  
    That would mean Amash piled up some electoral votes and I'd be stoked as hell. If the polling starts moving in this direction and Biden is running third, I'm finding you to help move Ds to Amash so we can avoid this scenario. 
    Your wistful thinking doesn't change the the consequences if having a viable third party. I don't want the House deciding. 
    "Look at this bad process"

    "Oh...yeah, wow, that is a bad process. Is someone trying to change that?"

    "No, we'll just use it as a cudgel to threaten people who could still trigger the bad process if they don't allow themselves to be bullied"

    "Ah, yes...very logical indeed"
    So what process are you proposing to change?  The Electoral College?  The more practical solution is a change in the makeup/priorities of the party.  You're seeing that happen today.  The problem you have is that Libertarian party is further from the mainstream than ever.  The GOP has gone populist and the Democrats are a mix of Rockefellers and Progressive.  
    Award victory to whomever gets a plurality, not a majority. Or leave it the way it is. It doesn't affect how I vote.
    Right but that's a fantasy.  There will not be a change to the EC under this Constitution.  Once you get out of the first 10-15 states, there's no chance the mid to small states give up their influence.  And certainly no way to get 2/3 of legislatures to do so.  So you're back to...three viable parties = House decision.  
    By the way, are you going to try and convince DEMOCRATS that THEY should be afraid of the HOUSE selecting the President? What exactly is the scenario where Biden wins a plurality and doesn't get inaugurated?
    Yeah for sure.  The House is a rabble.  It flips all the time.  Any Democrat would be short sighted to make that argument based on the majority today, especially when gerrymandering continues to be a problem all over the country.  I'm sure some idiots would make that argument, but not me.  
    If the House flips to Republicans in November, the 1824 election is the last thing you're gonna be thinking about 
    Non-sequitur, my friend.  

    And I'm always thinking about historical precedents.  
    I was using it similarly. Basically, if you told me today that Republicans would flip the house, Biden imploded.