All things Transgender related
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That's really the essence of it, for me as well.cincybearcat said:I'm certainly willing to try and use whatever anyone wants in regards to pronouns. And I would expect them to be willing to let me know in a pleasant manner and also work to see intent. If I screw up, don't beat me up for it. I find it a very hard subject to even think about and remember, probably because while I have had many Ls and Gs throughout my life, I don't believe I've had many Ts. Although thinking about it, probably at least 1 of those Ls is a T.
Regardless, it comes down to everyone just being compassionate with each other.
It's a shame this thread roller-coasters between civility and the ugly side of human nature.0 -
Well, he was using the correct generational reference and this whole thread seems to be about making sure we utilize descriptors appropriately. Unless you find the term Millenial offensive, which I guess is on par with finding it offensive for someone to use a pronoun which they physically perceived to be the most accurate even though no offense was intended. If it was that unclear, I would hope the person would just stick to generic terms or ask for clarification.Spiritual_Chaos said:
Yep I know. I work in advertising/communication.cincybearcat said:
Anyone born between 1981 and 1996 (ages 23 to 38 in 2019) is considered a Millennial, and anyone born from 1997 onward is part of a new generation.Spiritual_Chaos said:
We (swedes) had people attacking the non-descript pronoun "Hen" when it gained traction.tbergs said:
You're being just a judgmental by labeling someone who doesn't as not compassionate or normal. There's a fine line between purposeful misuse and ignorance to any other usage. These terms are not common to people who either don't work in the educational setting or have young children.Spiritual_Chaos said:
No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.jeffbr said:
Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.
I'd estimate you have very few people over 45 that really understand this movement and why they need to change their way of speaking for what they see as a non issue either way because it is not something they encounter in their work or social settings. Even just 5 years ago, it was almost a non-existent topic. Personally we have numerous friends who have young children (all under 10) who who are choosing to identify either neutrally (they, it, them) or as the opposite of their assigned sex. In every case, the parents are supportive and educating themselves as well as us as friends and fellow parents of young children. It means talking with our own children about how their friend is identifying without associating any negative stereotypes or judgments. It really doesn't change much for them because their friend is still their friend who they enjoy playing with even though they may now wear different clothes or go by a different name.
People also e.g. attacked when a movement formed to change the name of beloved pastry "n-word ball" to "chocolate ball"
What I have noticed during my 36 years on this planet (but please keep labeling me a millennial @mcgruff10) is that it is most often better to be a person who goes with and encouraging positive change, than be one of the ones standing with their arms folded. Historically they often end up on the wrong side it. Whatever age they might be in.It's a hopeless situation...0 -
Are you not a millennial?Spiritual_Chaos said:
We (swedes) had people attacking the non-descript pronoun "Hen" when it gained traction.tbergs said:
You're being just a judgmental by labeling someone who doesn't as not compassionate or normal. There's a fine line between purposeful misuse and ignorance to any other usage. These terms are not common to people who either don't work in the educational setting or have young children.Spiritual_Chaos said:
No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.jeffbr said:
Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.
I'd estimate you have very few people over 45 that really understand this movement and why they need to change their way of speaking for what they see as a non issue either way because it is not something they encounter in their work or social settings. Even just 5 years ago, it was almost a non-existent topic. Personally we have numerous friends who have young children (all under 10) who who are choosing to identify either neutrally (they, it, them) or as the opposite of their assigned sex. In every case, the parents are supportive and educating themselves as well as us as friends and fellow parents of young children. It means talking with our own children about how their friend is identifying without associating any negative stereotypes or judgments. It really doesn't change much for them because their friend is still their friend who they enjoy playing with even though they may now wear different clothes or go by a different name.
People also e.g. attacked when a movement formed to change the name of beloved pastry "n-word ball" to "chocolate ball".
What I have noticed during my 36 years on this planet (but please keep labeling me a millennial @mcgruff10) is that it is most often better to be a person who goes with and encouraging positive change, than be one of the ones standing with their arms folded. Historically they often end up on the wrong side of it. Whatever age they might be in.I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
I was talking to my wife (who knows more about the topic than me) about this very thing the other day. With the necessary preface that I don’t speak for trans people (individually or collectively), I’d say this: misgendering trans people is THE fundamental form of prejudice against them (e.g., “you say you’re a man, but you’re REALLY a woman”). In that respect, I’d say yes, misgendering a trans person is homologous to other offensive slurs.tbergs said:
You're equating someone using the pronoun "he" incorrectly when referring to someone as similar in nature to a racial slur. Are the pronouns he/him, she/her going to be considered offensive terms in all situations? I think that is a stretch and basically asking that the words be eliminated from usage in our language.ecdanc said:
Expecting (your word) a marginalized person to be pleasant (your word) when you say something offensive to them is the very essence of privilege.cincybearcat said:I'm certainly willing to try and use whatever anyone wants in regards to pronouns. And I would expect them to be willing to let me know in a pleasant manner and also work to see intent. If I screw up, don't beat me up for it. I find it a very hard subject to even think about and remember, probably because while I have had many Ls and Gs throughout my life, I don't believe I've had many Ts. Although thinking about it, probably at least 1 of those Ls is a T.
Regardless, it comes down to everyone just being compassionate with each other.0 -
No blown mind here. As I previously stated, there are many examples of usage being accepted simply because they are common, even when they are incorrect. So if enough people for a long enough time use a word incorrectly, it eventually becomes accepted by those various publications or bodies. That sentence would elicit the fat red editor's pen in most departments. It is an extremely awkward sentence that most would be uncomfortable using. BTW, I haven't said that nobody should use a plural pronoun in reference to a singular subject. Rather, I have said that it is a tough row to hoe. I'm not going to tell you what to do or how how to speak. I still posit that the sentence in question does sound like something a hillbilly would say. Perhaps, according to you it would be a compassionate hillbilly.Spiritual_Chaos said:
It is correct grammar (since the 14th century according to Wikipedia?) and accepted in its current usage:jeffbr said:
Maybe to a non-native speaker of the language. I'll grant that a Swede may not notice these things. I wouldn't notice you using incorrect Swedish. So not a knock on you. Although how you conclude that one is compassionate and the user of correct grammar isn't, is a bit of a leap. So maybe I shouldn't give you a break here.Spiritual_Chaos said:
No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.jeffbr said:
Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.
They in this context was named Word of the Year for 2015 by the American Dialect Society, and for 2019 by Merriam-Webster. In 2020, the American Dialect Society also selected it as Word of the Decade for the 2010s.
So you are actually attacking and bickering over correct grammar. Is your mind blown yet?"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/080 -
How much sense does this make?ecdanc said:
Read it again
Or how about vinyl and vinyl being the same both in plural and singular?
In the end, what does it matter? You don't go around saying "boom" now do you?
It was a lesson in pronunciation or did it have a bigger meaning that is escaping me?0 -
Your communication skills suck at times.Spiritual_Chaos said:
Yep I know. I work in advertising/communication.cincybearcat said:
Anyone born between 1981 and 1996 (ages 23 to 38 in 2019) is considered a Millennial, and anyone born from 1997 onward is part of a new generation.Spiritual_Chaos said:
We (swedes) had people attacking the non-descript pronoun "Hen" when it gained traction.tbergs said:
You're being just a judgmental by labeling someone who doesn't as not compassionate or normal. There's a fine line between purposeful misuse and ignorance to any other usage. These terms are not common to people who either don't work in the educational setting or have young children.Spiritual_Chaos said:
No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.jeffbr said:
Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.
I'd estimate you have very few people over 45 that really understand this movement and why they need to change their way of speaking for what they see as a non issue either way because it is not something they encounter in their work or social settings. Even just 5 years ago, it was almost a non-existent topic. Personally we have numerous friends who have young children (all under 10) who who are choosing to identify either neutrally (they, it, them) or as the opposite of their assigned sex. In every case, the parents are supportive and educating themselves as well as us as friends and fellow parents of young children. It means talking with our own children about how their friend is identifying without associating any negative stereotypes or judgments. It really doesn't change much for them because their friend is still their friend who they enjoy playing with even though they may now wear different clothes or go by a different name.
People also e.g. attacked when a movement formed to change the name of beloved pastry "n-word ball" to "chocolate ball"
What I have noticed during my 36 years on this planet (but please keep labeling me a millennial @mcgruff10) is that it is most often better to be a person who goes with and encouraging positive change, than be one of the ones standing with their arms folded. Historically they often end up on the wrong side it. Whatever age they might be in.0 -
You will not have to run around all of Hyrule to find the answer to that question.mcgruff10 said:
Are you not a millennial?Spiritual_Chaos said:
We (swedes) had people attacking the non-descript pronoun "Hen" when it gained traction.tbergs said:
You're being just a judgmental by labeling someone who doesn't as not compassionate or normal. There's a fine line between purposeful misuse and ignorance to any other usage. These terms are not common to people who either don't work in the educational setting or have young children.Spiritual_Chaos said:
No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.jeffbr said:
Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.
I'd estimate you have very few people over 45 that really understand this movement and why they need to change their way of speaking for what they see as a non issue either way because it is not something they encounter in their work or social settings. Even just 5 years ago, it was almost a non-existent topic. Personally we have numerous friends who have young children (all under 10) who who are choosing to identify either neutrally (they, it, them) or as the opposite of their assigned sex. In every case, the parents are supportive and educating themselves as well as us as friends and fellow parents of young children. It means talking with our own children about how their friend is identifying without associating any negative stereotypes or judgments. It really doesn't change much for them because their friend is still their friend who they enjoy playing with even though they may now wear different clothes or go by a different name.
People also e.g. attacked when a movement formed to change the name of beloved pastry "n-word ball" to "chocolate ball".
What I have noticed during my 36 years on this planet (but please keep labeling me a millennial @mcgruff10) is that it is most often better to be a person who goes with and encouraging positive change, than be one of the ones standing with their arms folded. Historically they often end up on the wrong side of it. Whatever age they might be in.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
Incorrect according to whom?jeffbr said:
No blown mind here. As I previously stated, there are many examples of usage being accepted simply because they are common, even when they are incorrect. So if enough people for a long enough time use a word incorrectly, it eventually becomes accepted by those various publications or bodies. That sentence would elicit the fat red editor's pen in most departments. It is an extremely awkward sentence that most would be uncomfortable using. BTW, I haven't said that nobody should use a plural pronoun in reference to a singular subject. Rather, I have said that it is a tough row to hoe. I'm not going to tell you what to do or how how to speak. I still posit that the sentence in question does sound like something a hillbilly would say. Perhaps, according to you it would be a compassionate hillbilly.Spiritual_Chaos said:
It is correct grammar (since the 14th century according to Wikipedia?) and accepted in its current usage:jeffbr said:
Maybe to a non-native speaker of the language. I'll grant that a Swede may not notice these things. I wouldn't notice you using incorrect Swedish. So not a knock on you. Although how you conclude that one is compassionate and the user of correct grammar isn't, is a bit of a leap. So maybe I shouldn't give you a break here.Spiritual_Chaos said:
No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.jeffbr said:
Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.
They in this context was named Word of the Year for 2015 by the American Dialect Society, and for 2019 by Merriam-Webster. In 2020, the American Dialect Society also selected it as Word of the Decade for the 2010s.
So you are actually attacking and bickering over correct grammar. Is your mind blown yet?0 -
Have I attacked @cincybearcat or shown offense in any way?tbergs said:
Well, he was using the correct generational reference and this whole thread seems to be about making sure we utilize descriptors appropriately. Unless you find the term Millenial offensive, which I guess is on par with finding it offensive for someone to use a pronoun which they physically perceived to be the most accurate even though no offense was intended. If it was that unclear, I would hope the person would just stick to generic terms or ask for clarification.Spiritual_Chaos said:
Yep I know. I work in advertising/communication.cincybearcat said:
Anyone born between 1981 and 1996 (ages 23 to 38 in 2019) is considered a Millennial, and anyone born from 1997 onward is part of a new generation.Spiritual_Chaos said:
We (swedes) had people attacking the non-descript pronoun "Hen" when it gained traction.tbergs said:
You're being just a judgmental by labeling someone who doesn't as not compassionate or normal. There's a fine line between purposeful misuse and ignorance to any other usage. These terms are not common to people who either don't work in the educational setting or have young children.Spiritual_Chaos said:
No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.jeffbr said:
Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.
I'd estimate you have very few people over 45 that really understand this movement and why they need to change their way of speaking for what they see as a non issue either way because it is not something they encounter in their work or social settings. Even just 5 years ago, it was almost a non-existent topic. Personally we have numerous friends who have young children (all under 10) who who are choosing to identify either neutrally (they, it, them) or as the opposite of their assigned sex. In every case, the parents are supportive and educating themselves as well as us as friends and fellow parents of young children. It means talking with our own children about how their friend is identifying without associating any negative stereotypes or judgments. It really doesn't change much for them because their friend is still their friend who they enjoy playing with even though they may now wear different clothes or go by a different name.
People also e.g. attacked when a movement formed to change the name of beloved pastry "n-word ball" to "chocolate ball"
What I have noticed during my 36 years on this planet (but please keep labeling me a millennial @mcgruff10) is that it is most often better to be a person who goes with and encouraging positive change, than be one of the ones standing with their arms folded. Historically they often end up on the wrong side it. Whatever age they might be in."Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
Word of the year gets chosen because of the amount of times it was researched, not for it's place in social status. Hell, Malarkey was word of the year too.Spiritual_Chaos said:
It is correct grammar (since the 14th century according to Wikipedia?) and accepted in its current usage:jeffbr said:
Maybe to a non-native speaker of the language. I'll grant that a Swede may not notice these things. I wouldn't notice you using incorrect Swedish. So not a knock on you. Although how you conclude that one is compassionate and the user of correct grammar isn't, is a bit of a leap. So maybe I shouldn't give you a break here.Spiritual_Chaos said:
No. It sounds like a compassionate normal person.jeffbr said:
Are you comfortable with Gern's example: I should say "is they going to shut up?" Sounds like a one-toothed hillbilly.
They in this context was named Word of the Year for 2015 by the American Dialect Society, and for 2019 by Merriam-Webster. In 2020, the American Dialect Society also selected it as Word of the Decade for the 2010s.
So you are actually attacking and bickering over correct grammar. Is your mind blown yet?0 -
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Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist.0
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ecdanc said:Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
Suddenly? Every teacher I ever had was a prescriptivist, as they should be. And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization. We were intimately familiar with Turabian's manuals, and the Chicago Manual of Style. I haven't used them as reference for decades so I can't say if they've changed, but can only say that I haven't suddenly become a prescriptivist.ecdanc said:Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist."I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/080 -
You don't think these editors have accepted "they"?jeffbr said:
And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization."Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
You'd have to ask them. I can't imagine a sentence like "Is they going to shut up?" being considered acceptable usage in most publications, but I don't interact with editors these days.Spiritual_Chaos said:
You don't think these editors have accepted "they"?jeffbr said:
And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization."I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/080 -
As I said above, it would probably be “are they...” even for the singular.jeffbr said:
You'd have to ask them. I can't imagine a sentence like "Is they going to shut up?" being considered acceptable usage in most publications, but I don't interact with editors these days.Spiritual_Chaos said:
You don't think these editors have accepted "they"?jeffbr said:
And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization.0 -
Something we are taught is to not use the term "those people" as it can be offending.ecdanc said:Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist.
Calling a person "they" fits in to that to me and doesn't feel right. I don't have a problem calling someone They if that is what they want.
I just don't understand the other non gender, non binary, genderqueer definitions. Transgender is the easy one.0 -
“As they should be?” No, no, no.jeffbr said:
Suddenly? Every teacher I ever had was a prescriptivist, as they should be. And so was every editor I've ever interacted with, as they set or enforced the standard for a particular organization. We were intimately familiar with Turabian's manuals, and the Chicago Manual of Style. I haven't used them as reference for decades so I can't say if they've changed, but can only say that I haven't suddenly become a prescriptivist.ecdanc said:Start asking people to respect trans people’s pronoun choices and suddenly everyone’s a prescriptivist.0
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