All things Transgender related

ecdanc

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Interesting point.  Is the a clear medical way to determine gender? 

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Interesting point.  Is the a clear medical way to determine gender? 

Gender is not a scientific area, so no. 

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Interesting point.  Is the a clear medical way to determine gender? 

Gender is not a scientific area, so no. 

Right so comparing it to things that are is probably not a fair comparison?

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Interesting point.  Is the a clear medical way to determine gender? 

Gender is not a scientific area, so no. 

Right so comparing it to things that are is probably not a fair comparison?

I was merely poking some gentle fun at we should “accept the human body.” Bodies are flawed in many ways. 

Spiritual_Chaos

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Unless there is something medically wrong with the appendix (as it being dangerous to keep), wouldn't it be kept?

Removing an appendix isn't a sure-fire procedure and can cause complications. So it's not something that, to my knowledge, is removed on a kid on their initiative? 

amethgr8

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

unless they pose a significant problem.  I don't feel tonsils should be removed unless there is a problem.  Many people never need their wisdom teeth removed, I think that's a poor analogy, no one uses their tonsils to help they identify who they are.  Back in the 60's, if one child had a tonsil problem and had siblings, they typically brought them all in and had them all removed at once.  that was the best the doctors knew.

to me, a sexual organ is just that, doesn't matter what form it comes in.  Male, female orgasm the same thing is going to happen in your head and body.   It's our society that puts a "picture" of what any person "should look like" to have a certain type of experience.  I disagree.

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Interesting point.  Is the a clear medical way to determine gender? 

Gender is not a scientific area, so no. 

Right so comparing it to things that are is probably not a fair comparison?

Also, I’m not a dentist, but I think the wisdom teeth comparison may be apt. 

oftenreading

I wish I had the time to get further into this discussion. I'm slammed at work and have lots going on in my personal life, so I can't put the time in that some people somehow manage to, but it's an interesting discussion.

A few points. First, talking about the fact that the "human brain and body do not fully mature until 25" displays a lack of understanding of the nuance of that. Competency to make decisions is on a continuum, from little to no competency in young children to gradually increasing competency as once gets into the teens and twenties and beyond. 25 is not a magic number - people continue to mature over time, to a greater or lesser extent. Being 18 does not automatically make one more competent than 16 or 15, or even younger.

Second, the argument against allowing any biological treatments (like medication or surgery) prior to a specific age like 18 assumes that "doing nothing" is without risk, and we know that isn't true. Everything in medicine, like everything in life, has pros and cons, and you have to weigh them to make a decision. There is evidence of clear harms when trans individuals are not given the opportunities to express their gender in ways that are congruent for them, including a high rate of suicide attempts as well as other mental and physical health conditions. Dying with a body "intact" doesn't do anyone any good.

ecdanc

amethgr8 said:

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

unless they pose a significant problem.  I don't feel tonsils should be removed unless there is a problem.  Many people never need their wisdom teeth removed, I think that's a poor analogy, no one uses their tonsils to help they identify who they are.  Back in the 60's, if one child had a tonsil problem and had siblings, they typically brought them all in and had them all removed at once.  that was the best the doctors knew.

to me, a sexual organ is just that, doesn't matter what form it comes in.  Male, female orgasm the same thing is going to happen in your head and body.   It's our society that puts a "picture" of what any person "should look like" to have a certain type of experience.  I disagree.

But you disagreeing doesn’t eliminate their trauma. 

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Interesting point.  Is the a clear medical way to determine gender? 

Gender is not a scientific area, so no. 

Right so comparing it to things that are is probably not a fair comparison?

I was merely poking some gentle fun at we should “accept the human body.” Bodies are flawed in many ways. 

Yup, so are minds.  Humans as a whole.

ecdanc

Spiritual_Chaos said:

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Unless there is something medically wrong with the appendix (as it being dangerous to keep), wouldn't it be kept?

Removing an appendix isn't a sure-fire procedure and can cause complications. So it's not something that, to my knowledge, is removed on a kid on their initiative? 

Appendices are removed when they cause problems for their host, hence the half-jestful comparison to some forms of physical transitioning. 

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

amethgr8 said:

mickeyrat said:

amethgr8 said:

As parents, you have to make decisions for your children. Formula or breast milk, meat or no meat, TV or music, etc it goes on for years before children make their own conscious choices.  as long as you give children love, support and acceptance, maybe a bit of how to overcome potential obstacles they will most likey be okay with what they choose.

i think by default a parent that has overcome the social boxes they were brought up in, will naturally elimate those same boxes for their own children.

i never appreciated gender roles much, but they are a big part of any society.

i think it's ironic for a person that does not want to be gender labeled, dress in an attire that is clearly gender based, that is confusing to me.

do you think such parental choices should include medical intervention i.e. hormone replacement in young children?

to reference kinda what started all this here from the dem thread and joe rogans supposed endorsement bernie put up on his site.

no on the medical intervention. it would be "if you still feel strongly and you want to do that when  you are 18".  The human brain and body do not reach full maturity until the age of 25.  I encourage the child to use what they have and dress the way they want, but accept their human body.  Maybe it would work, maybe it would not work, once a child is an adult they will do what they want.

Should we make sure they keep their tonsils, appendix, and wisdom teeth until they're 18 (or 25)?

Interesting point.  Is the a clear medical way to determine gender? 

Gender is not a scientific area, so no. 

Right so comparing it to things that are is probably not a fair comparison?

I was merely poking some gentle fun at we should “accept the human body.” Bodies are flawed in many ways. 

Yup, so are minds.  Humans as a whole.

Speak for yourself. 😇

ecdanc

oftenreading said:

I wish I had the time to get further into this discussion. I'm slammed at work and have lots going on in my personal life, so I can't put the time in that some people somehow manage to, but it's an interesting discussion.

A few points. First, talking about the fact that the "human brain and body do not fully mature until 25" displays a lack of understanding of the nuance of that. Competency to make decisions is on a continuum, from little to no competency in young children to gradually increasing competency as once gets into the teens and twenties and beyond. 25 is not a magic number - people continue to mature over time, to a greater or lesser extent. Being 18 does not automatically make one more competent than 16 or 15, or even younger.

Second, the argument against allowing any biological treatments (like medication or surgery) prior to a specific age like 18 assumes that "doing nothing" is without risk, and we know that isn't true. Everything in medicine, like everything in life, has pros and cons, and you have to weigh them to make a decision. There is evidence of clear harms when trans individuals are not given the opportunities to express their gender in ways that are congruent for them, including a high rate of suicide attempts as well as other mental and physical health conditions. Dying with a body "intact" doesn't do anyone any good.

This last paragraph is gold. Thank you. 

cincybearcat

ecdanc said:

oftenreading said:

I wish I had the time to get further into this discussion. I'm slammed at work and have lots going on in my personal life, so I can't put the time in that some people somehow manage to, but it's an interesting discussion.

A few points. First, talking about the fact that the "human brain and body do not fully mature until 25" displays a lack of understanding of the nuance of that. Competency to make decisions is on a continuum, from little to no competency in young children to gradually increasing competency as once gets into the teens and twenties and beyond. 25 is not a magic number - people continue to mature over time, to a greater or lesser extent. Being 18 does not automatically make one more competent than 16 or 15, or even younger.

Second, the argument against allowing any biological treatments (like medication or surgery) prior to a specific age like 18 assumes that "doing nothing" is without risk, and we know that isn't true. Everything in medicine, like everything in life, has pros and cons, and you have to weigh them to make a decision. There is evidence of clear harms when trans individuals are not given the opportunities to express their gender in ways that are congruent for them, including a high rate of suicide attempts as well as other mental and physical health conditions. Dying with a body "intact" doesn't do anyone any good.

This last paragraph is gold. Thank you. 

It's pretty good.  I would think it would be a child/parent/doctor decision prior to 18 though.

brianlux

Some of these posts give me the feeling some here think it's OK for people to look at their kids like they look at  their pets.  Let's dock its tail and clip the ears.  Jesus, people, please don't go carving on your kids.  Use some common sense.  Elective surgery on children is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

amethgr8

flaws in the human body are a matter of perspective.  If there is a clear defect that interferes with function then yes it could be considered a flaw. Being around women that constantly want to change how their face and different "undesirable" parts of their body, it's ridiculous what society deems as acceptable and what we "should" change.  I was speaking loosely regarding the age of 25, of course maturity can occur earlier or later.  Based on my own personal experience, I look back prior to 25yrs old and think, "what was I thinking when I did that".

There are all kinds of social traumas that occur in a life that lead to depression and worse.

I don't know how that conversation would go as I don't have any trans-children, so I cannot say specifically.  But with love, understanding and support, we would figure it out.

Spiritual_Chaos

brianlux said:

Some of these posts give me the feeling some here think it's OK for people to look at their kids like they look at  their pets.  Let's dock its tail and clip the ears.  Jesus, people, please don't go carving on your kids.  Use some common sense.  Elective surgery on children is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

I sure hope you agree then on the barbaric mutilation that is called circumcision? Whether religious or from (ignorant) tradition? That is cruelty void of common sense.

At least with a 15 years old who feels he/she is trapped in the wrong body and wants to correct that in some way - they are at least the ones who is wanting it. Not the parent. Whether they should have the right to decide about that before 18 or not, is another discussion. 

ecdanc

brianlux said:

Some of these posts give me the feeling some here think it's OK for people to look at their kids like they look at  their pets.  Let's dock its tail and clip the ears.  Jesus, people, please don't go carving on your kids.  Use some common sense.  Elective surgery on children is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

You have a very low opinion of adolescents. 

ecdanc

cincybearcat said:

ecdanc said:

oftenreading said:

I wish I had the time to get further into this discussion. I'm slammed at work and have lots going on in my personal life, so I can't put the time in that some people somehow manage to, but it's an interesting discussion.

A few points. First, talking about the fact that the "human brain and body do not fully mature until 25" displays a lack of understanding of the nuance of that. Competency to make decisions is on a continuum, from little to no competency in young children to gradually increasing competency as once gets into the teens and twenties and beyond. 25 is not a magic number - people continue to mature over time, to a greater or lesser extent. Being 18 does not automatically make one more competent than 16 or 15, or even younger.

Second, the argument against allowing any biological treatments (like medication or surgery) prior to a specific age like 18 assumes that "doing nothing" is without risk, and we know that isn't true. Everything in medicine, like everything in life, has pros and cons, and you have to weigh them to make a decision. There is evidence of clear harms when trans individuals are not given the opportunities to express their gender in ways that are congruent for them, including a high rate of suicide attempts as well as other mental and physical health conditions. Dying with a body "intact" doesn't do anyone any good.

This last paragraph is gold. Thank you. 

It's pretty good.  I would think it would be a child/parent/doctor decision prior to 18 though.

It is