Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • 1ThoughtKnown
    1ThoughtKnown Posts: 6,155
    I am so thankful to live in a secular country where religious whack jobs who will do anything to impede social progress are unable to elect populist politicians to enact arcane laws such as the criminalization of abortion.
    i remember the Henry Morgantaler news stories from when I was a kid and even as a 10-12 year old I thought it was insane.

    There is a planned parenthood clinic two blocks from our house. Some church outfit spent the past decade out there across the street with signs peacefully protesting abortions.  I’m getting the impression they know they are fighting a losing battle as they haven’t been out there for a while. 

    Don’t allow the religious right to dictate your laws people. If you need historical proof, research what Afghanistan, Syria and Turkey were like in the 70s.  If it can happen there it can happen anywhere. Morons like Trump exist everywhere. 
  • 1ThoughtKnown
    1ThoughtKnown Posts: 6,155
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    My grandfather was the result of a rape (a good old Saskatchewan gang rape).  He was almost aborted. Obviously he had strong anti-abortionist opinions.  Had he been aborted I would not even exist. 
    Despite all that.... I’m pro-choice.
    Interestingly, the defence lawyer for those rapists? John Diefenbaker (according to gramps). 
  • Smellyman
    Smellyman Asia Posts: 4,528
    s̶h̶a̶r̶i̶a̶ Christian Law is coming
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    You must feel absolutely devastated about miscarriages then. I mean, women's bodies don't even consider fetuses viable up to 50% of the time. How do you handle that level of tragedy every single day?
    Anyway, there is literally nothing wrong with being pro-life. I think I can gather from your post that you think a woman's body isn't really her own anymore while pregnant? Well, that is a BIG fucking problem, and logically, there is NO moral way to take someone's own body away from them, whether they don't like fetuses dying or not. You relied on your mother after birth outside of her body, and that is not comparable to being inside her body at all, so I'm not sure how that point makes sense. You're free to think that a pregnant woman is murdering a fetus inside of her, but she MUST have the right to do that anyway, and no other person has the right to tell someone what they are allowed to have going on inside of their own internal organs. There is literally no argument or point of view that makes that okay, because the alternative makes slaves out of women.
    (no, I'm not saying this with an angry tone, lol)
    Ah yeah you are. First you were condescending and the angry. I mean, it pretty obvious despite your patented “lol” and edit.

    But, really other than the condescending part its understandable to be angry. Both sides of this are understandably angry cause it really a very different issue for both and easy to see how they cannot understand the other point of view when framed their way.

    I wish we would do all the stuff we should be doing to limit abortions though because that would be actually doable. While having this argument is not doable. 
    Ah, no I wasn't. I don't lie.
    Lol

     Not angry with the poster but you are very clearly angry with the topic, angry with the current trend in the states. 
    Of COURSE I'm angry with the topic and what's going on in the USA right now. I hope everyone is! It all actually makes me completely sick to my stomach, and full of absolute RAGE. And fear. And dismay. Of course.
    (btw, that comment about being devastated by miscarriages.. you mistook it for condescension. It wasn't. I was serious. If someone feels what the poster said, I think that is a legitimate question to ask. The fact that the question also kind of delegitimizes their perspective isn't my fault)
    I don’t believe it delegitimizes their opinion. Not sure why you do, other than you simply disagree with them.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    jeffbr said:
    and it actually amazes me that republicans are pro life. being 'anti-government making our choices for us' and all. 
    Yeah, that whole anti-government thing is silly. They love the government to tell us who we can marry, tell us we can't make the ultimate determination to end our lives, tell us what we can and can't smoke, tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies, etc... Any actual pro-freedom and liberty state looks pretty blue to me. 
    Yup. It’s the biggest hypocrisy of the right. I really don’t get it, because getting the government out of more of your life seems to be a good thing and you would have thought they’d let that principle guide the party. But they choose the religious right to define their party. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    and it actually amazes me that republicans are pro life. being 'anti-government making our choices for us' and all. 
    I certainly don’t thin the pro-life opinion fits the narrative for hypocrisy here though. I mean, all those same people likely support the government locking up murders...and to them it’s a similar result 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,750
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • JPPJ84
    JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 3,464
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    edited May 2019
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?

    Yes, although depends on what you mean by "just assault", as there are varying degrees of assault charges. This could be considered an assault causing bodily harm, thus a higher level of assault. Or assault with a weapon, etc., depending on the circumstances.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    Yeah clearly.  I just wonder what people think the law should be able to charge the boyfriend/father to be in a case like this.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited May 2019
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • pjhawks
    pjhawks Posts: 12,956
    for those that argue life begins at conception where can i get my happy conception cards?  i can't believe i'm actually 9 months older than i thought all these years.
  • JPPJ84
    JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 3,464
    edited May 2019
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.
    I think it depends how far the pregnancy is. Would the baby have been able to survive had it been born at that stage? If so it would be too late for an abortion (unless of course the mothers life is in danger) and could be considered murder.
    and yes it’s not black and white.
    for me personally life does not begin at conception. No lungs, no brain, no way the fetus would be able to actually live
    Post edited by JPPJ84 on
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 

    It's irrelevant whether you "agree with people being sexually irresponsible" - there have been unwanted pregnancies since time immemorial, women have sought out means to end those pregnancies for roughly the same amount of time, and they will continue to do so. Making abortion more difficult to get simply raises the harms associated with it, without doing anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies or abortions. Your stance is just sanctimonious punishment of a woman whose behaviour you disagree with, without taking into account all the other factors. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited May 2019
    JPPJ84 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.
    I think it depends how far the pregnancy is. Would the baby have been able to survive had it been born at that stage? If so it would be too late for an abortion (unless of course the mothers life is in danger) and could be considered murder.
    and yes it’s not black and white.
    for me personally life does not begin at conception. No lungs, no brain, no way the fetus would be able to actually live
    Another grey area there, though.  Viability is somewhat determined by modern medicine.  Don’t want to get to science fictiony here, ha.  I remember having some of these fun debates in philosophy class :)

    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited May 2019
    pjhawks said:
    for those that argue life begins at conception where can i get my happy conception cards?  i can't believe i'm actually 9 months older than i thought all these years.
    Ha, my child was born two weeks after his due date.  So he was fully formed, just cushy in mommy’s womb :). Had been sucking on his wrist so much inside the womb that he had a hicky on it!  Should he be considered older than he is...no, but he was definitely “alive” before his actual birth.

    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited May 2019
    PJPOWER said:
    JPPJ84 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
    I think he is asking whether or not it should be considered murder....if life doesn’t begin until out of the womb and is just part of the woman’s body while inside.
    Not life= “just” assault
    Life=Murder
    This isn’t all as black and white as some try to make it.   For the record, I am pro-choice to a certain degree because I know that this isn’t a black and white issue and feel that there are valid reasons for ending a pregnancy (a life) and completely invalid ones as well.  I do not agree with people being sexually irresponsible  and yet I do not agree with women being forced to carry a rapist’s baby. 

    It's irrelevant whether you "agree with people being sexually irresponsible" - there have been unwanted pregnancies since time immemorial, women have sought out means to end those pregnancies for roughly the same amount of time, and they will continue to do so. Making abortion more difficult to get simply raises the harms associated with it, without doing anything to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies or abortions. Your stance is just sanctimonious punishment of a woman whose behaviour you disagree with, without taking into account all the other factors. 
    I think you are being dismissive to my point that was exactly what you ended your comment with...all factors must be accounted for.  I cannot bring myself to be supportive of abortions on a whim.  
    “Sanctimonious punishment of women”...please...Can I conclude that you are more on the “black and white” side of opinions with this issue?
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,750
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    depends, really. some states will charge for in utero death in some circumstances.
    I assume those charges are based on which term the mother is in.


    from 1994 in California, no less....


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,750
    then theres this. read all of the provisions of the newest law from Georgia....


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14