Canadian Politics Redux

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  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,757
    I agree that tougher penalties have always supposedly been a major part of the Conservative agenda... The problem is that they never did shit about it. My own mother kept voting Conservative/for Harper because if that so-called agenda. I was surprised when I had to point out to her that they never ever followed through with any of it. It's just a talking point. I further reminded her that while they didn't do shit about the one thing she really cared about with them, they also did nothing to really help the environment, the one other issue she really cared about... I was pleased to see that my reminders gave her pause.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    edited September 2018
    PJ_Soul said:
    I agree that tougher penalties have always supposedly been a major part of the Conservative agenda... The problem is that they never did shit about it. My own mother kept voting Conservative/for Harper because if that so-called agenda. I was surprised when I had to point out to her that they never ever followed through with any of it. It's just a talking point. I further reminded her that while they didn't do shit about the one thing she really cared about with them, they also did nothing to really help the environment, the one other issue she really cared about... I was pleased to see that my reminders gave her pause.
    Fair enough.

    Although to be completely fair, I think they were moving in that direction prior to getting the toe (too little too late).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,757
    Just something to consider...


    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    PJ_Soul said:
    Just something to consider...


    Thanks for posting. Yes, considering evidence around what actually works and what doesn't in a correctional setting is important, and should be important to society. We should be funding and completing far more research on correctional programs.  Unfortunately, many people are only interested in the retribution/punishment aspect of corrections, not in what actually works to make society safer. If people were actually interested in a safer society, we would be taking seriously data out of counties like Norway, which appears to have some of the lowest rates of recidvism from a correctional system that focuses much more on treatment, humane conditions and personal responsibility. Instead, we mostly get people calling for harsher and harsher punishment.

    Of course, many people would like to remove the whole "recidivism" question by keeping any violent offender in prison forever. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    She's guilty of child murder.  She does not deserve that country club treatment.  
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Why should the emotionally-based desire for vengeance outweigh the evidence-based outcomes of lower recidivism and an overall safer society? 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • PJ_Soul
    PJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,757
    edited September 2018
    Right. Revenge is not the government or criminal justice system's mandate.
    Like I said before, I support whatever keeps society safe (including from those who get OUT of prison of course). If healing lodges are somehow shown to help with that in any way, fine with me. And of course I support humane treatment of prisoners. I don't encourage Canada corrections to make our criminals psychologically or socially worse while under their care.

    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Use of the term “country club” shows a major lack of knowledge about what medium secure correctional facilities are actually like. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    oftenreading said:
    Why should the emotionally-based desire for vengeance outweigh the evidence-based outcomes of lower recidivism and an overall safer society? 

    Why is an 'emotionally' based decision a poor decision? If someone goes and kills a child in as disgusting fashion as these two pukes... we don't need to put emotions aside and consider the needs of the murderers. We just need to lock them away for good (seeing as we can't execute them which is what we should be doing).

    When a child is raped and murdered... most people aren't concerned with rehabilitating the offender on the off-hand chance they become remotely productive in society. Most people would prefer we erase the obscenity from our existence.

    And you spoke of Norway which makes me laugh. They can have their 'open prison system'. Talk to me when they aren't slaughtering whales and issuing hunting licenses for endangered wolves. They'll roll out the carpet for Anders Breivik, but treat animals like barbarians. Sorry, but they haven't got it figured out.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    The conservatives trying to make hay with that little girls murder is disgusting.
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    dignin said:
    The conservatives trying to make hay with that little girls murder is disgusting.
    Somewhat.

    Not as much as the tender care of her murderer, but somewhat.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Going with your emotions instead of outcome research in an area as important as correctional policy is as ridiculous as foregoing chemo or radiation for a potentially treatable cancer and instead taking herbal supplements because that "feels" like the right thing to do. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    oftenreading said:
    Going with your emotions instead of outcome research in an area as important as correctional policy is as ridiculous as foregoing chemo or radiation for a potentially treatable cancer and instead taking herbal supplements because that "feels" like the right thing to do. 

    In the 'out of control and in the intense moment of an emotional breakdown' phase... yes. I would agree.

    Ignoring the concept of justice and taking extraordinary measures to try and rehabilitate a child murderer is as ridiculous as foregoing chemo or radiation for a potentially treatable cancer and instead taking herbal supplements because that "feels" like the right thing to do though. 

    Murder a child and get a mulligan?

    The outcome research you have presented at various stages of this discussion is not rock solid and fails to take into account several variables (which were presented as challenges many pages ago in one of these threads which you chose to not address as part of your 'ignore 30 Bills' operating procedure). I'm not going to bother reposting.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    PJ_Soul said:
    Just something to consider...



    What are we considering?

    Is it this: There are conflicting findings around repeat offences for residents of healing lodges, as compared to minimum security? Yah. These studies are fraught with unaccounted for variables that- while they do give us some kind of an idea- they hardly define anything that we can hang our hat on and then call it a day.

    Is it this (linked to above): The 2002 study found that, of 426 residents who had been released from healing lodges between 1995 and 2001, 19 per cent of them (83) had been readmitted to corrections within four years (compared to 13% for offenders in minimum security facilities). Hmmm. 1 in 5 is set to reoffend. And this study suggests the healing house isn't as effective as minimum security.

    Is it how such a study fails to take into account the unique characteristics of the offenders'? Focus on what is relevant: what is the reoffending rates for child murderers? Is it appropriate to lump child murderers in with people who have assaulted someone or killed someone by accident when they were drunk... and consider the results of such data appropriate when speaking to a child murderer?

    Is it the simple fact that pragmatic people in our society do not see any value in rehabilitating or comforting child murderers... or have any will to do so either? 

    Most people think there is a line and when it is crossed... there is no coming back. I mean... it's one thing to kill your spouse in a drunken rage... or have too many drinks and kill someone driving home (one of my best friends was killed by a drunk driver). It's quite another to abduct an 8 year old child from the streets, rape her repeatedly, and then brutally murder her with a hammer and your boot.

    I'm assuming that by posting this (and by previous discussions), that you think it was appropriate to make this shithead's life sentence as comfortable as possible in the hopes of rehabilitating her. We can agree to disagree on this (but call me an emotional mess and ignore me).
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Speaking of permits for hunting wolves:

    https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/bc-targets-predators-to-protect-bighorn-sheep/ar-BBNJC4I?ocid=spartanntp
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    dignin said:
    The conservatives trying to make hay with that little girls murder is disgusting.

    Yet somehow I doubt her father feels that way...


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    1st degree murder should be life with no parole ever, actually all murderers should at the be minimum life no parole.

    And the BS Harper didn’t do anything.  There is a triple murderer in New Brunswick who killed 3 RCMP Officers serving 75 years before parole eligibility.  That’s one fucker that got taken off the streets for life.

    Give Peas A Chance…
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Meltdown99 said:
    dignin said:
    The conservatives trying to make hay with that little girls murder is disgusting.

    Yet somehow I doubt her father feels that way...


    I'm curious as to why you are not arguing that the Canadian legal system has no jurisdiction over this First Nations offender, given that that is your position with other aspects of Canadian law and policy. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Revamped NAFTA deal, now the USMCA, appears to be a reality. 

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/freeland-rosemary-barton-interview-1.4846281
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    edited October 2018
    oftenreading said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    dignin said:
    The conservatives trying to make hay with that little girls murder is disgusting.

    Yet somehow I doubt her father feels that way...


    I'm curious as to why you are not arguing that the Canadian legal system has no jurisdiction over this First Nations offender, given that that is your position with other aspects of Canadian law and policy. 
    WTF ... even the chief of that reserve is shocked that she is there.  As a matter of fact, up until 6 years ago, the government consulted with the reserve who got to go there.  They also used to send village elders to interview potential inmates and even have rejected some inmates.  I'm pretty sure if the chief and band council approval were sought they would have rejected a child killer coming onto their reserve into a facility with no fences.  Do you even know fuck all about this case, or are you that much of a bleeding liberal that you can't see placing a child murderer (she admitted she killed her after he raped her over and over) in that facility is just WRONG, this woman qualifies for capital punishment.  But she is not because people like you apparently do not have a problem with child killers in unsecured facilities.

    So to answer your question.  I absolutely support native rights.  They were not consulted.  Also, I don't think she is first nations, because they said anyone can go to a healing center.  They would not have mentioned that if she was first nations.  So unless you have proof that she is first nations, your question is irrelevant.  I also find it ignorant, you think first nation people's want child murderers walking amongst them?  Minimum security prison should not be reserved for child killers...

    Every day when those monsters committed those horrendous crimes we in Ontario absorbed the news daily, we saw the pain and anguish this family went through.  Maybe the justice system should also consult the family of the victims.  Your opinion matters very little if you even have .0000001% sympathy for animals like that.

    We will ship her to BC ... then you bleeding hearts can have her.
    Post edited by Meltdown99 on
    Give Peas A Chance…
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