This thread has gone far enough. "Be kind." -Ilona Anne Coggswater

PJPOWER said:

F Me In The Brain said:

PJPOWER said:

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

Wow, this thread sure seems to have touched people in some inappropriate places...

Do you often hear that you aren't as funny as you think you are?  Maybe listen to the people who tell you that, they are smart cookies.

Lol, well in all due respect, this did make me laugh.  You are hilarious!

Words of wisdom

Okay:
“Where there is shouting, there is no true knowledge.”
Leonardo da Vinci

Better?

Yes, imo.

PJPOWER said:

F Me In The Brain said:

PJPOWER said:

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

Wow, this thread sure seems to have touched people in some inappropriate places...

Do you often hear that you aren't as funny as you think you are?  Maybe listen to the people who tell you that, they are smart cookies.

Lol, well in all due respect, this did make me laugh.  You are hilarious!

Words of wisdom

Okay:
“Where there is shouting, there is no true knowledge.”
Leonardo da Vinci

Better?

Hahahaha obviously.  Is that the point you were trying to make?  Big fail lol 
It just came off as a joke making light of sexual assault because people take it seriously.

Annafalk said:

I would say sometimes it has gone too far. I don't think it's ok that people get hanged out by media just because someone has accused someone for something.  It seems to have been like a witch hunt at times. 

Finally a voice of reason...

Meltdown99 said:

Annafalk said:

I would say sometimes it has gone too far. I don't think it's ok that people get hanged out by media just because someone has accused someone for something.  It seems to have been like a witch hunt at times. 

Finally a voice of reason...

Goodness. In what other context have we heard "witch hunt" recently?

Meltdown99 said:

Annafalk said:

I would say sometimes it has gone too far. I don't think it's ok that people get hanged out by media just because someone has accused someone for something.  It seems to have been like a witch hunt at times. 

Finally a voice of reason...

saying the movement has gone too far in this context is the same as blaming islam for suicide bombings. there are some that co-opt the movement and tarnish what it is about. it doesn't mean the movement itself is to blame. 

curmudgeoness said:

rgambs said:

When I mentioned choices and behaviours that carry risk, I wasn't talking about the general vigilance everyone (but women in particular) should have.  Being alone in public carries danger, but not enough in most areas to worry to heavily about.
What I was talking about is, going to a man's house or inviting him into your own after a few dates is a pretty risky thing to do.  
Getting blackout drunk is a pretty risky thing to do for many reasons, sexual assault is surely one of them.
Fooling around with someone that you don't trust well enough to go ahead and have sex with carries a significant risk.

Should women be free to do these perfectly acceptable (IMO) things??  Of course they should, but the risk is real and the more extreme factions of the #metoo movement is trying to eliminate that from the dialogue.

@rgambs I don't consider myself part of an extreme faction (or I didn't, until this morning). I think the problem/ issue is a "slippery slope" one. Yes, there are certain behaviors that reasonable people would agree are unwise for anyone to engage in. But once we open the door to acknowledge that, say, running alone after midnight through Central Park isn't super-smart, the "yeah, but what abouts?" start to creep in, and then we end up having to argue over whether or not it is "wise" for a woman to leave her home alone after sunset. And then responsibility for what happened starts to shift from perpetrator to victim.

Because, fine, it's not smart to go for a run through Central Park alone after midnight -- but that doesn't mean I was "asking for it" if I foolishly do so and end up being mugged, raped, or worse. So I think this line of reasoning gets squashed because of the need/ desire to keep responsibility focused squarely where it belongs -- on the perpetrator.

As a parent, I'll still tell my kids, ad nauseam, "Don't do stupid shit." When my son accompanies his friend to drag karaoke night, I urge him to get a cab or Uber for the ride home after. No need to go looking for trouble. But if something bad happens to them because they made a foolish decision, I'll be defending them and supporting them, not standing there saying "See? I told you not to do stupid shit!"

a woman in Alberta had her BMW stolen out of a mall parking lot. As it turns out, her non-verbal autistic daughter was in the back seat. I was talking about this with a friend of mine (the girl was found safe eventually), he immedately started in with "what the fuck are you doing leaving your kid in the car?". I'm like "what? why is it her fault her kid got stolen?". people seem to always blame the victim, not just in sexual assault cases, but when anything bad happens that the public deems "preventable". I have left my kids in the car countless times when paying for gas. Not to do shopping, but this woman probably was going in for a quick sec, and it is often a lot of trouble getting your kid out of the car and dragging them somewhere they don't want to go. it is reasonable to believe they will be perfectly fine for those 90 seconds. 

how about instead of "what were you thinking?" we say "what was the criminal thinking?"

OnWis97 said:

rgambs said:

When I mentioned choices and behaviours that carry risk, I wasn't talking about the general vigilance everyone (but women in particular) should have.  Being alone in public carries danger, but not enough in most areas to worry to heavily about.
What I was talking about is, going to a man's house or inviting him into your own after a few dates is a pretty risky thing to do.  
Getting blackout drunk is a pretty risky thing to do for many reasons, sexual assault is surely one of them.
Fooling around with someone that you don't trust well enough to go ahead and have sex with carries a significant risk.

Should women be free to do these perfectly acceptable (IMO) things??  Of course they should, but the risk is real and the more extreme factions of the #metoo movement is trying to eliminate that from the dialogue.

Girls should be taught about risks.  The problem becomes a) that there's so much nuance that most people can't navigate it and b) blaming women is embedded in our (and most) culture.  "Some women got raped in the alley behind the bars at closing time."  "Well,what was she doing out there alone at that time of night?"

If I had daughters (thank god I don't), I would talk about risks.  But I'd be very careful not to send the message that "...because then if something happens, it's your fault."  And that message can be sent without those words being used.  Because if that's the message she gets, then she'll be less likely to come to me, or to anyone.  And then 20 years later when she realizes it wasn't her fault and wants to talk about it, she'll be called a liar.

And if I had sons (thank god I don't), I'd like to think I'd put them in position to a) not be the guy who thinks he has some kind of right and b) do the right thing in peer groups, despite the pressure and the number of times the dudebros say "come on."

But right now, not only is too much blame put on the victim, but the balance of responsibility is shifted far too much toward women.  How they dress, where they go, who they're with, what they drink.  But while reasonable people agree on the basic premise of "rape is bad" it doesn't seem like we're really putting a lot of responsibility on men and how they respond to the woman who's alone, drunk, etc.

THIS. there should be mandatory classes in public school that teach this. they teach sex ed. they should teach respect ed. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

along the same lines, I saw something on facebook yesterday that really opened my eyes. It went something like this:

"if a boy is teasing your daughter, don't tell her it's because he likes her. don't start her off teaching her that harassment is equal to love"

Holy crap...that makes so much sense and yet I never thought of it.  Damn it.  I have a daughter and I'm pretty sure I have said to that to her about a kid.  Thanks...gotta change the message.

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

Annafalk said:

I would say sometimes it has gone too far. I don't think it's ok that people get hanged out by media just because someone has accused someone for something.  It seems to have been like a witch hunt at times. 

Finally a voice of reason...

saying the movement has gone too far in this context is the same as blaming islam for suicide bombings. there are some that co-opt the movement and tarnish what it is about. it doesn't mean the movement itself is to blame. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

Meltdown99 said:

Annafalk said:

I would say sometimes it has gone too far. I don't think it's ok that people get hanged out by media just because someone has accused someone for something.  It seems to have been like a witch hunt at times. 

Finally a voice of reason...

saying the movement has gone too far in this context is the same as blaming islam for suicide bombings. there are some that co-opt the movement and tarnish what it is about. it doesn't mean the movement itself is to blame. 

Is it really guaranteed that no one has been wrongly accused?
We've had people taken their own life's because of accusations that's actually never been tested in trial, people who has been judged before they got a chance to defend themselves. I'm all for women's right but I think no one should be judged unjust.
I'm just saying, let it be handled in a proper way.