This thread has gone far enough. "Be kind." -Ilona Anne Coggswater

brianlux

First let me say this, I am totally against sexual harassment and completely for women's rights and equal pay for equal work.  But I also believe it is a fair question to ask (as this article's headline does, "Has #MeToo gone too far?"

Here are a couple of articles to consider.  The first article says this about #MeToo founder Tarana Burke:

"Has #MeToo, reconfigured as a broad attempt to rectify a broad host of wrongs, lost the plot? Has it dilated to its detriment?Tarana Burke says, emphatically, yes."

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/07/is-metoo-too-big/564275/

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/sep/17/sean-penn-metoo-comments-sexual-assault-claims-movement-criticism

My own thinking is that this is another example of a good thing gone haywire, the end result being that it is doing more harm than good, for both women and men.

Thoughts?

brianlux

And one more.  Even feminist Germaine Greer has her doubts:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement

Gern Blansten

When people put up with abuse for decades then the consequences will be severe when they fight back.

So....no

mickeyrat

humans being humans, I can readily see how something this important can be co-opted for petty grievances. As with most things positive and forward moving , resistance to change permeates culture at large.Men, simply put, need to be better human beings. And maybe not so much "men"

Kat

No. Sexual predators ruin lives, destroy victims. Let the sun shine on it so it won't keep happening. It'll all become apparent from facts, and we can judge each case, one at a time.

cincybearcat

As the parent of a little girl, I’m very happy for this movement.

I do hope that we can slow the roll a little bit. We need to see accusations as that, not as truths. They need to be taken seriously and investigated, etc but we cannot let our desire for every women to have a voice when needed to convict every man based on an unproven accusation.  This makes the situations that are he said - she said (only 1 accuser) very difficult.

PJ_Soul

I don't think the movement overall has gone too far per se; it still has a place in the fight for women's rights/safety. But I think in some instances it has definitely gone too far, where there is an unreasonable unwillingness to allow for redemption where appropriate, and where accusations that are groundless or even accusations of actions that are not wrong at all in the first place (like with Aziz Ansari) are negatively impacting people unfairly. I boil this down to plain old mass hysteria. It's what happens when public opinion becomes the judge, jury, and executioner. The masses are too dumb or too indifferent to distinguish specific circumstances, apparently, and also too unforgiving in some cases due to basic self-righteousness on a grand scale. It's very, very frustrating to me. So I think it's more like the #metoo movement is being violated by this, rather than the #metoo movement itself being the culprit.

Kat

I should add to my post that I think the tide of accusations will slow naturally. This was a dam ready to burst and there are years of predatory behavior to be addressed. It'll even out in time and hopefully, be good for everyone. Daughters and sons, mothers and fathers who have been victims, whether from an acquaintance, stranger, clergy, etc. It's got to get better.

HesCalledDyer

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think the movement overall has gone too far per se; it still has a place in the fight for women's rights/safety. But I think in some instances it has definitely gone too far, where there is an unreasonable unwillingness to allow for redemption where appropriate, and where accusations that are groundless or even accusations of actions that are not wrong at all in the first place (like with Aziz Ansari) are negatively impacting people unfairly. I boil this down to plain old mass hysteria. It's what happens when public opinion becomes the judge, jury, and executioner. The masses are too dumb or too indifferent to distinguish specific circumstances, apparently, and also too unforgiving in some cases due to basic self-righteousness on a grand scale. It's very, very frustrating to me. So I think it's more like the #metoo movement is being violated by this, rather than the #metoo movement itself being the culprit.

Hit the nail on the head.

F Me In The Brain

It is going to take a long while to see things actually change -- and people will naturally overcompensate, but I think it is better than the alternative.  IMO, Not too far.

PJ_Soul

F Me In The Brain said:

It is going to take a long while to see things actually change -- and people will naturally overcompensate, but I think it is better than the alternative.  IMO, Not too far.

Yes, I agree what we've got going on is certainly better than nothing... I'm just hoping people can calm the hell down and get more rational about things. Hopefully it's just a learning curve. The media ain't helping either right now - I hope they also learn.

brianlux

My concern about #MeToo is that it is being co-opted in such a way that, at least in some cases, it is becoming less helpful to women's issues and harmful to some women and men (example of this are in the articles I posted).

Personally, I never understood how it got to this point in the first place.  How is it that so many men are sexual predators such that a movement was needed in the first place?  But then I feel the same way about wars, human induced animal extinction and climate change, and planned obsolescent.  We are a weird and often sick species.

HughFreakingDillon

brianlux said:

My concern about #MeToo is that it is being co-opted in such a way that, at least in some cases, it is becoming less helpful to women's issues and harmful to some women and men (example of this are in the articles I posted).

Personally, I never understood how it got to this point in the first place.  How is it that so many men are sexual predators such that a movement was needed in the first place?  But then I feel the same way about wars, human induced animal extinction and climate change, and planned obsolescent.  We are a weird and often sick species.

men have been clubbing women and carrying them off to their caves to have their way since the inception of our species. it's no surprise this is still a rampant problem. 

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

My concern about #MeToo is that it is being co-opted in such a way that, at least in some cases, it is becoming less helpful to women's issues and harmful to some women and men (example of this are in the articles I posted).

Personally, I never understood how it got to this point in the first place.  How is it that so many men are sexual predators such that a movement was needed in the first place?  But then I feel the same way about wars, human induced animal extinction and climate change, and planned obsolescent.  We are a weird and often sick species.

men have been clubbing women and carrying them off to their caves to have their way since the inception of our species. it's no surprise this is still a rampant problem. 

So true.  But the thing is, we are supposedly this highly intelligent species capable of learning, growing and changing and understanding morals and appropriate behavior.  Perhaps our intelligence is over-rated?

HughFreakingDillon

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

My concern about #MeToo is that it is being co-opted in such a way that, at least in some cases, it is becoming less helpful to women's issues and harmful to some women and men (example of this are in the articles I posted).

Personally, I never understood how it got to this point in the first place.  How is it that so many men are sexual predators such that a movement was needed in the first place?  But then I feel the same way about wars, human induced animal extinction and climate change, and planned obsolescent.  We are a weird and often sick species.

men have been clubbing women and carrying them off to their caves to have their way since the inception of our species. it's no surprise this is still a rampant problem. 

So true.  But the thing is, we are supposedly this highly intelligent species capable of learning, growing and changing and understanding morals and appropriate behavior.  Perhaps our intelligence is over-rated?

I don't know much about evolution, but to me it seems like there are so many people in so many different places scattered across the globe, there's no way we are all evolving at the same rate. 

I think our emotional intelligence needs a tonne of work. 

humans are so easily corruptible by offerings of greed, sex, and now "likes", we are so weak emotionally it is incredible we have made it this far. I think the few have elevated the many, to the detriment of ourselves. 

look at how so many people behave where a natural disaster hits. or even if their team does/doesn't win the championship. looting, rape, mass property destruction; mob mentality. 

we are only as intelligent as our circumstances dictate. most of the time, things are grand, and everyone is fine. take us to our basest level of coping, and we are no better, or maybe even worse, than our primate cousins. 

HughFreakingDillon

I have witnessed first-hand how men can behave like animals.

bootlegger10

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

brianlux

HughFreakingDillon said:

I have witnessed first-hand how men can behave like animals.

Sorry to hear that.  Me too. 

brianlux

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

pjhawks

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

agree. it's very, dare i say, bizarre to me in some ways that this behavior has been this prevalent. i don't mean to diminish it or the affects i just don't understand it. i know men can be pigs. hell i'm sure i've had moments of being a pig around women but sure as hell never in the workplace and never as blatant and disgusting as some of the allegations against many of these men.  In a lot of ways i just don't fathom acting in those ways towards women.  

josevolution

No way heck the commander in chief is culprit numero 1 and he's leading the free world i'd say more needs to be done the fact of the matter NO means NO , but men who are power positions have always believed that NO doesn't pertain to them ! 

OnWis97

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

And the number of enablers that look the other way...

This backlash was destined to happen.  Culturally, so much crap was allowed to go on that women (well, all victims; mostly women) could not really say much and now they're feeling empowered to finally say something.  And it's very telling that something that occurred in 1985 is still causing pain.  It's equally telling that so many people think that most of these women are liars.

Look, the idea that someone could flat out make up a story about me has occurred to me.  And I suspect that it has happened.  For the most part, I feel safe because I have not even flirted with any lines.  So has the movement gone too far?  If we decide that it's gone too far then we may as well just acknowledge it right now and go back to laughing when someone slaps a secretary on the ass.  Sexual harassment is a probablem at my office right now.  2018.  I don't want to see it validated.

I don't think that anyone that ever called someone "hon" in 1990 needs to be harmed to this day.  There are some "context" things from the past that w cannot undo.  But pardon me for not sticking up for Les Moonves.

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I have witnessed first-hand how men can behave like animals.

Sorry to hear that.  Me too. 

I think everyone has. The word HFD was "rampant". That wasn't an exaggeration.

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

collectively, yes, it is better than the alternative. individually, though, for those that have to suffer through an illegit complaint, they have a differing opinion. 

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I have witnessed first-hand how men can behave like animals.

Sorry to hear that.  Me too. 

I think everyone has. The word HFD was "rampant". That wasn't an exaggeration.

i witnessed something in the 90's that resembled a pack of wolves surrounding a baby sheep. they were all friends of mine (at least one still is). I think they all thought it was funny at the time, but I'm sure the girl was probably traumatized. 

oftenreading

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

collectively, yes, it is better than the alternative. individually, though, for those that have to suffer through an illegit complaint, they have a differing opinion. 

And all the people, women and men, who were abused over the years and decades and more had a differing opinion of the status quo at that point.

It's a massive change. It is very much needed, but no massive change occurs without some problems, due to human nature. No matter how careful we are, we can't avoid it. Even once things settle out and the time of casual abuse is in our rearviewmirror, there will still be problems, but hopefully fewer.

So absolutely #MeToo has not gone too far. 

PJ_Soul

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

collectively, yes, it is better than the alternative. individually, though, for those that have to suffer through an illegit complaint, they have a differing opinion. 

And all the people, women and men, who were abused over the years and decades and more had a differing opinion of the status quo at that point.

It's a massive change. It is very much needed, but no massive change occurs without some problems, due to human nature. No matter how careful we are, we can't avoid it. Even once things settle out and the time of casual abuse is in our rearviewmirror, there will still be problems, but hopefully fewer.

So absolutely #MeToo has not gone too far. 

What she said.

That doesn't mean I don't find false accusations appalling though. I do. Each one of those need to be paid a ton of attention so that people can learn better.

HughFreakingDillon

oftenreading said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

bootlegger10 said:

I don't think it has gone too far.  Almost every day I ask myself if I live in crazytown after reading about all of these famous CEO's, newsman, politicians, and celebrities that outwardly look like respectable people, and then you read the shit they have done and it is almost uniformly so far across the line of decency that you think it can't be true (but it is).

I'm definitely not against the legit complaints.  But if you read the articles, you may find some are not so legit and that can hurt a useful movement.

Sure, but having some illegit complaints among the legit ones is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, which is everyone just ignoring the problem altogether, which is basically what was happening before the #metoo movement. At the very least, the #metoo movement, with or without illegitimate accusations, has made a lot of assholes stop and actually consider their behaviour simply out of fear of being accused - there are a lot of creepy pervs who abused and harassed who are now walking on egg shells (and grumbling about how they have to do so), and thank goodness for that. For now, that's way better than nothing. This is a looooong term thing, fixing this. I'm not surprised about the "hiccups" happening now. Like I said before, this is a learning process. The idiot masses need a lot more time to figure out how to deal with it all.

collectively, yes, it is better than the alternative. individually, though, for those that have to suffer through an illegit complaint, they have a differing opinion. 

And all the people, women and men, who were abused over the years and decades and more had a differing opinion of the status quo at that point.

It's a massive change. It is very much needed, but no massive change occurs without some problems, due to human nature. No matter how careful we are, we can't avoid it. Even once things settle out and the time of casual abuse is in our rearviewmirror, there will still be problems, but hopefully fewer.

So absolutely #MeToo has not gone too far. 

I agree with you. I'm trying very hard not to minimize their situation by propping up the very few who have been wrongly accused. However, I don't think it's fair to just dismiss that eventuality. not saying anyone here is, I just think it deserves mentioning (like Aziz Ansari). 

I didn't read Jian Ghomeshi's "article" the other day, but I've read excerpts and it is completely and utterly disgusting what I did read. 

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

My concern about #MeToo is that it is being co-opted in such a way that, at least in some cases, it is becoming less helpful to women's issues and harmful to some women and men (example of this are in the articles I posted).

Personally, I never understood how it got to this point in the first place.  How is it that so many men are sexual predators such that a movement was needed in the first place?  But then I feel the same way about wars, human induced animal extinction and climate change, and planned obsolescent.  We are a weird and often sick species.

men have been clubbing women and carrying them off to their caves to have their way since the inception of our species. it's no surprise this is still a rampant problem. 

So true.  But the thing is, we are supposedly this highly intelligent species capable of learning, growing and changing and understanding morals and appropriate behavior.  Perhaps our intelligence is over-rated?

we ourselves label us as such. if that came from an independent 3rd party I would believe it.

PJ_Soul

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

My concern about #MeToo is that it is being co-opted in such a way that, at least in some cases, it is becoming less helpful to women's issues and harmful to some women and men (example of this are in the articles I posted).

Personally, I never understood how it got to this point in the first place.  How is it that so many men are sexual predators such that a movement was needed in the first place?  But then I feel the same way about wars, human induced animal extinction and climate change, and planned obsolescent.  We are a weird and often sick species.

men have been clubbing women and carrying them off to their caves to have their way since the inception of our species. it's no surprise this is still a rampant problem. 

So true.  But the thing is, we are supposedly this highly intelligent species capable of learning, growing and changing and understanding morals and appropriate behavior.  Perhaps our intelligence is over-rated?

we ourselves label us as such. if that came from an independent 3rd party I would believe it.

I think highly intelligent humans capable of learning, growing and changing and understanding morals and appropriate behaviour is still more the exception among our species, not the norm, and even then it's on an individual level. The masses are way dumber than their individual parts.