This thread has gone far enough. "Be kind." -Ilona Anne Coggswater

rgambs

 JjI think the #metoo movement hasn't gone too far enough. (Futurama reference!)

The only thing that I don't care for is that it stifles dialogue a bit.  The more extreme faction is dictating acceptable and unacceptable regions of conversation and that isn't the best case scenario.
For instance, I have been castigated and demeaned for opposing some very broad generalisations.  When the Aziz thing happened, I was seeing dozens of women all over the place assert that every woman has been violated the way that lady was.  Very much not true, there are millions of women who have never been violated like that for many different reasons.  I spoke up here and there to mention that my mother, my wife, her sister, her mother, her cousins...almost nobody in her majority female family has experienced a date like that.  It's not a coincidence that none of them ever went to a man's house after a first date for a hook-up.  None of them have ever had sex with a stranger.  Are their voices and stories irrelevant in the #metoo era?  Is it right that they are spoken for?  This line of thought, given gently and diplomatically, was drummed out of town as victim blaming.

@curmudgeoness
Please don't think I doubt the veracity of your experience, but it isn't just "standard".
The women in my life haven't endured most of those things.  Much of the reason for that is luck, but not all.  This is a direction of conversation that is forbidden, and I'm not a fan of that.  

We have to teach our sons about respect and consent...everyone accepts that.
We have to teach our daughters to be careful and guarded against men who behave worse than animals...I'm an asshole for saying it.

curmudgeoness

rgambs said:

 JjI think the #metoo movement hasn't gone too far enough. (Futurama reference!)

The only thing that I don't care for is that it stifles dialogue a bit.  The more extreme faction is dictating acceptable and unacceptable regions of conversation and that isn't the best case scenario.
For instance, I have been castigated and demeaned for opposing some very broad generalisations.  When the Aziz thing happened, I was seeing dozens of women all over the place assert that every woman has been violated the way that lady was.  Very much not true, there are millions of women who have never been violated like that for many different reasons.  I spoke up here and there to mention that my mother, my wife, her sister, her mother, her cousins...almost nobody in her majority female family has experienced a date like that.  It's not a coincidence that none of them ever went to a man's house after a first date for a hook-up.  None of them have ever had sex with a stranger.  Are their voices and stories irrelevant in the #metoo era?  Is it right that they are spoken for?  This line of thought, given gently and diplomatically, was drummed out of town as victim blaming.

@curmudgeoness
Please don't think I doubt the veracity of your experience, but it isn't just "standard".
The women in my life haven't endured most of those things.  Much of the reason for that is luck, but not all.  This is a direction of conversation that is forbidden, and I'm not a fan of that.  

We have to teach our sons about respect and consent...everyone accepts that.
We have to teach our daughters to be careful and guarded against men who behave worse than animals...I'm an asshole for saying it.

@rgambs speaking as a woman... during the presidential debates in 2016, there was a lot of, pardon the phrase, triggering behavior displayed by a certain candidate. I was still on Facebook at the time. I can tell you that every woman --- every one -- on my "friends" list had at least one story. These women are mostly white, mostly affluent, all with a minimum of a bachelor's degree. Their stories make me embarrassed to tell mine, because my experiences are so trifling in comparison.

I mentioned in my second post the stories roiling classical music right now. I was speaking to a friend, a professional musician, about one of the now-disgraced men. She said she never had a problem of that sort with him. I said, she was lucky, as I had heard from multiple people about his tendency to prey on high-school girls.... (something that is not in the news, BTW).

I'll take your latter comment about how you think it's more than luck as well-intentioned, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. There's a lot more than "maybe you shouldn't do X or go to Y at Z time!" involved. A lot is luck, or coincidence, or bad timing. I went to very good schools. I was loudly and aggressively propositioned by men while sober, in broad daylight, in group settings, while looking for work, by male chaperones on trips, you name it. I am not beautiful, I am not slutty, I am not hyper-sexy. I'm a very average female.

Now, I'd be willing to consider that self-confidence is a factor. After the guy came at me for no reason last year on the beach, I got angry instead of scared. I took self-defense lessons (real ones). I bought pepper spray. I developed an attitude. People no longer mess with me.

So, yes, that could be a factor. But: I raised two men, and I see it as my job, as their parent, to tell them to keep their hands to themselves, to know what consent is, to respect boundaries, and to step in if they see trouble. It wasn't difficult to convey those messages, and both of them got the message, loud and clear. Keeping in mind that sexual assault and harassment really are about power, not sex, what we are talking about is bullying, abuse of power, not hormones run wild. Trying to make this behavior about sex obfuscates the true underlying cause --- power, and abuse of it. After all, again, men can be and are victims of sexual harassment and assault, too.

rgambs

Another example I've experienced is in regards to human/sex trafficking.
Everyone talks about it, but at least 75% of people have no clue what the hell they are talking about.  For years I have been combating this weird quirk in our society that has middle aged, middle and upper class white women just terrified of themselves and their daughters being kidnapped into sex slavery.  Social media abounds with ridiculous hoaxes that have these complicated Wiley Coyote plots for ensnaring wealthy white women from mall parking lots.  Business cards laced with exotic drugs or GPS locators, teams of men working to isolate women from possible help and scouting potential victims, text messages that, if replied, give your information and location to sex traffickers who will come steal you away...and tens of thousands of women just eat that shit up without question! 
I have a link I've been posting for a few years that addresses this myth and talks about the reality of the sex trafficking, who the victims actually are, how they are "captured" (they usually aren't) and how the myth of the white woman abduction into slavery only perpetuates the risk for those who are actually at risk.
I can't post that link anymore since #metoo hit.  The backlash is ridiculous.  There was an infographic circulating Facebook on advertisements in northeast Ohio that are related to human trafficking. A couple hundred were listed...mostly Craigslist hookers, obviously, but they also do this thing with "Need cash now?" signs, they fish for women vulnerable enough to accept bad situations that will get worse. 
The comment section was absolute insanity.  Middle aged, middle class white women were losing their minds thinking the hundreds were how many children have already been abducted into slavery, all sorts of Comet Pizza-style rumors...Honest truth, there was a septagenarian who was commenting to make sure that senior citizens keep their heads of a swivel because the sex traffickers were after them too.

I posted the link, one woman agreed with me and the link, and forty others lost their minds about how I didn't understand the risk because I was a man.  They certainly didn't want to hear that the mall is statistically a safer place for their teenage daughters to be than in their own bedrooms with unfettered internet access.
My hometown of 5,000 people has seen 11 false accusations of attempted kidnapping in 4 years.  The most recent was a man trying to open a door for a woman with a child in the rain. That's outrageous, but I wouldn't have much of a problem with it if open and honest dialogue about it was still on the table.

rgambs

curmudgeoness said:

rgambs said:

 JjI think the #metoo movement hasn't gone too far enough. (Futurama reference!)

The only thing that I don't care for is that it stifles dialogue a bit.  The more extreme faction is dictating acceptable and unacceptable regions of conversation and that isn't the best case scenario.
For instance, I have been castigated and demeaned for opposing some very broad generalisations.  When the Aziz thing happened, I was seeing dozens of women all over the place assert that every woman has been violated the way that lady was.  Very much not true, there are millions of women who have never been violated like that for many different reasons.  I spoke up here and there to mention that my mother, my wife, her sister, her mother, her cousins...almost nobody in her majority female family has experienced a date like that.  It's not a coincidence that none of them ever went to a man's house after a first date for a hook-up.  None of them have ever had sex with a stranger.  Are their voices and stories irrelevant in the #metoo era?  Is it right that they are spoken for?  This line of thought, given gently and diplomatically, was drummed out of town as victim blaming.

@curmudgeoness
Please don't think I doubt the veracity of your experience, but it isn't just "standard".
The women in my life haven't endured most of those things.  Much of the reason for that is luck, but not all.  This is a direction of conversation that is forbidden, and I'm not a fan of that.  

We have to teach our sons about respect and consent...everyone accepts that.
We have to teach our daughters to be careful and guarded against men who behave worse than animals...I'm an asshole for saying it.

@rgambs speaking as a woman... during the presidential debates in 2016, there was a lot of, pardon the phrase, triggering behavior displayed by a certain candidate. I was still on Facebook at the time. I can tell you that every woman --- every one -- on my "friends" list had at least one story. These women are mostly white, mostly affluent, all with a minimum of a bachelor's degree. Their stories make me embarrassed to tell mine, because my experiences are so trifling in comparison.

I mentioned in my second post the stories roiling classical music right now. I was speaking to a friend, a professional musician, about one of the now-disgraced men. She said she never had a problem of that sort with him. I said, she was lucky, as I had heard from multiple people about his tendency to prey on high-school girls.... (something that is not in the news, BTW).

I'll take your latter comment about how you think it's more than luck as well-intentioned, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. There's a lot more than "maybe you shouldn't do X or go to Y at Z time!" involved. A lot is luck, or coincidence, or bad timing. I went to very good schools. I was loudly and aggressively propositioned by men while sober, in broad daylight, in group settings, while looking for work, by male chaperones on trips, you name it. I am not beautiful, I am not slutty, I am not hyper-sexy. I'm a very average female.

Now, I'd be willing to consider that self-confidence is a factor. After the guy came at me for no reason last year on the beach, I got angry instead of scared. I took self-defense lessons (real ones). I bought pepper spray. I developed an attitude. People no longer mess with me.

So, yes, that could be a factor. But: I raised two men, and I see it as my job, as their parent, to tell them to keep their hands to themselves, to know what consent is, to respect boundaries, and to step in if they see trouble. It wasn't difficult to convey those messages, and both of them got the message, loud and clear. Keeping in mind that sexual assault and harassment really are about power, not sex, what we are talking about is bullying, abuse of power, not hormones run wild. Trying to make this behavior about sex obfuscates the true underlying cause --- power, and abuse of it. After all, again, men can be and are victims of sexual harassment and assault, too.

I definitely agree with you there, women are victimised every day at random and without any choices or behaviours that could be called into question even by a Puritan pilgrim.
My point was that certain choices and behaviours putting women at a higher risk has become a fact which is no longer admissable to the discussion.  I understand that there are troglodytes out there still saying "she shouldn't have worn that dress, she was asking for it" and I understand why this fact's adjacency to those troglodytes makes people uncomfortable, but if it's given respectfully and with tact from someone who supports the #metoo movement, then it shouldn't be shouted down.

PJPOWER

Wow, this thread sure seems to have touched people in some inappropriate places...

curmudgeoness

I hate those stories. They are, on their face, absurd. But they also eat their way into your brain, even if you know they're ridiculous.

So, I'm a runner. I love trail running. But I've been conditioned to believe that, as a woman, I cannot and must not do trail runs, because there are rapists hiding behind every tree, just waiting to grab women who are foolish enough to venture into the woods. Maybe they grew tired of hiding under cars in mall parking lots, I don't know.

I've had to work, actively, on overcoming apprehensions about running on trails -- or running alone outside, at all. That's one reason why I got so angry last year when a guy came after me. I live in a very safe place, I've taken pains to make smart decisions, to get comfortable with the basic act of going for a run outdoors, and some asshole is going to ruin that for me?? I don't think so.

I wonder who starts these rumors, and what their actual motivation is. Because the end result is that many women, even women who live in safe areas, will not run outdoors alone, at any time. And they won't run errands after dark. And they don't feel safe walking to their cars. It's absurd, but it's also very limiting. We internalize the message that we need to limit, to restrict, our own behavior, because some men can't control themselves. We start to believe that we need to be afraid of leaving our homes and moving about in the world. We accept that  we bear the responsibility to stop people who would behave badly toward us. And that's just wrong.

curmudgeoness

... and, since not every thread on here needs to be about Agent Orange, I'll save my thoughts about President Pussy Grabber's latest tweet and channel that rage into my workout, even though it's relevant here.  Rick Wilson said it best: "FFS."

PJPOWER

curmudgeoness said:

I hate those stories. They are, on their face, absurd. But they also eat their way into your brain, even if you know they're ridiculous.

So, I'm a runner. I love trail running. But I've been conditioned to believe that, as a woman, I cannot and must not do trail runs, because there are rapists hiding behind every tree, just waiting to grab women who are foolish enough to venture into the woods. Maybe they grew tired of hiding under cars in mall parking lots, I don't know.

I've had to work, actively, on overcoming apprehensions about running on trails -- or running alone outside, at all. That's one reason why I got so angry last year when a guy came after me. I live in a very safe place, I've taken pains to make smart decisions, to get comfortable with the basic act of going for a run outdoors, and some asshole is going to ruin that for me?? I don't think so.

I wonder who starts these rumors, and what their actual motivation is. Because the end result is that many women, even women who live in safe areas, will not run outdoors alone, at any time. And they won't run errands after dark. And they don't feel safe walking to their cars. It's absurd, but it's also very limiting. We internalize the message that we need to limit, to restrict, our own behavior, because some men can't control themselves. We start to believe that we need to be afraid of leaving our homes and moving about in the world. We accept that  we bear the responsibility to stop people who would behave badly toward us. And that's just wrong.

It’s not just women being assaulted that scares me.  There are all types of sickos out there and due to population density, there are only going to be more of them in the future.  I suggest you get a dog or taser or an (oh my God scary) handgun to carry when you can.
On another note, this kind of shit has been going on for centuries, and it is important to teach women to not put themselves in situations where they increase the likelihood of these things happening.  I’m not saying it is fair, but women do need to be more aware of their surroundings than men.  Ever see deer in their “rut”?  I do not believe teenage boys act much differently...

HughFreakingDillon

I honestly get nervous when my wife decides to go for a walk by the river after dark. I do have an anxiety and overactive imagination problem, but still......with two daughters, I'm going to have a VERY difficult time.

PJPOWER

HughFreakingDillon said:

I honestly get nervous when my wife decides to go for a walk by the river after dark. I do have an anxiety and overactive imagination problem, but still......with two daughters, I'm going to have a VERY difficult time.

Same here...but at least my wife is pretty proficient with a firearm.  But every time she goes somewhere alone, my protective mind goes instinctual and I imagine the worst of the worst possible scenarios.  

rgambs

PJPOWER said:

Wow, this thread sure seems to have touched people in some inappropriate places...

Do you often hear that you aren't as funny as you think you are?  Maybe listen to the people who tell you that, they are smart cookies.

HughFreakingDillon

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I honestly get nervous when my wife decides to go for a walk by the river after dark. I do have an anxiety and overactive imagination problem, but still......with two daughters, I'm going to have a VERY difficult time.

Same here...but at least my wife is pretty proficient with a firearm.  But every time she goes somewhere alone, my protective mind goes instinctual and I imagine the worst of the worst possible scenarios.  

my wife has trouble with a butter knife. so glad our gun laws are different up here. 

PJPOWER

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

Wow, this thread sure seems to have touched people in some inappropriate places...

Do you often hear that you aren't as funny as you think you are?  Maybe listen to the people who tell you that, they are smart cookies.

Lol, well in all due respect, this did make me laugh.  You are hilarious!

F Me In The Brain

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

Be safe  ladies.

Be kind guys.

It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 

Have you ever gotten someone to see what you're trying to say while at the same time called them an asshole or fuck you and shit like that?  I haven't.

Sometimes it just feels right to call a spade a spade, imo.

This certain troll goes out of his way to antagonize people -- and this being his second Pearl Jam forum membership (PJFAN) threads like this just show how good he is at being a cockbag.

I am not a violent person, but this is the type of person that just needs a complete ass beating. 

Good for @LongestRoad -- going to get a time out but someone needs to tell this pile of garbage what any person with brains thinks of him and his opinions. 

PJPOWER

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I honestly get nervous when my wife decides to go for a walk by the river after dark. I do have an anxiety and overactive imagination problem, but still......with two daughters, I'm going to have a VERY difficult time.

Same here...but at least my wife is pretty proficient with a firearm.  But every time she goes somewhere alone, my protective mind goes instinctual and I imagine the worst of the worst possible scenarios.  

my wife has trouble with a butter knife. so glad our gun laws are different up here. 

Are women allowed to carry tasers up there?

F Me In The Brain

PJPOWER said:

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

Wow, this thread sure seems to have touched people in some inappropriate places...

Do you often hear that you aren't as funny as you think you are?  Maybe listen to the people who tell you that, they are smart cookies.

Lol, well in all due respect, this did make me laugh.  You are hilarious!

Words of wisdom

OnWis97

rgambs said:

 I spoke up here and there to mention that my mother, my wife, her sister, her mother, her cousins...almost nobody in her majority female family has experienced a date like that.  It's not a coincidence that none of them ever went to a man's house after a first date for a hook-up.  None of them have ever had sex with a stranger.  Are their voices and stories irrelevant in the #metoo era?  Is it right that they are spoken for?  This line of thought, given gently and diplomatically, was drummed out of town as victim blaming.

And rightly so.  It is.  There’s no way around it.

My wife doesn’t have a meetoo story either. So why would I be thinking that she needs a voice? To say what?  That she’s never had one of these experiences so y’all need to calm down?

So yes, their voices and (lack of) stories are Absolutely irrelevant.  What relevance would they have?  “Act like us and men won’t treat you like garbage?”

And don’t forget, Much of this is a workplace issue.  When my 65 year old male co-worker told my 30-year old female co-worker that her body makes him hard...what advice would the virtuous women of your family have been able to give her so that didn’t happen?  I suppose it would be clothing-related.

And by the way, not knowing anything about all these people you mention, I’d lay good money that at least one of them has a story.

rgambs

My Mom carried carried a boot knife in her day.
It probably put her at greater risk, but she would have rather been stabbed to death with her own knife than be someone's victim.

It was hard not to insert "lol" through that, because it amuses me.  Part of her charm lol

HughFreakingDillon

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJPOWER said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I honestly get nervous when my wife decides to go for a walk by the river after dark. I do have an anxiety and overactive imagination problem, but still......with two daughters, I'm going to have a VERY difficult time.

Same here...but at least my wife is pretty proficient with a firearm.  But every time she goes somewhere alone, my protective mind goes instinctual and I imagine the worst of the worst possible scenarios.  

my wife has trouble with a butter knife. so glad our gun laws are different up here. 

Are women allowed to carry tasers up there?

no. 

PJPOWER

F Me In The Brain said:

PJPOWER said:

rgambs said:

PJPOWER said:

Wow, this thread sure seems to have touched people in some inappropriate places...

Do you often hear that you aren't as funny as you think you are?  Maybe listen to the people who tell you that, they are smart cookies.

Lol, well in all due respect, this did make me laugh.  You are hilarious!

Words of wisdom

Okay:
“Where there is shouting, there is no true knowledge.”
Leonardo da Vinci

Better?