This thread has gone far enough. "Be kind." -Ilona Anne Coggswater

Halifax2TheMax

unsung said:

Mainly because I don’t see it as a need and that a change for no reason other than filling a demographic is ridiculous.

What is it about strong, powerful women, particularly women of color, that strikes such fear in your heart?

cincybearcat

unsung said:

Mainly because I don’t see it as a need and that a change for no reason other than filling a demographic is ridiculous.

No need? How’s the recruitment of priests going these days? How about Catholics in general?

And what are the results from the current system...good?  You can blame it all on 1 guy that’s been in power for a few years or you can face the harsh reality of the real issue (good old boys network and enticing creeps into the clergy).

fife

unsung said:

People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.

Can you tell me who career has been ruined by a simple accusation?

curmudgeoness

Has it gone too far? No.

Why has the predatory behavior gone on for so long? Because the victims aren't taken seriously (how many women had to come forward before people believed the allegations against Bill Cosby?). Because victims know that if they make their accusations public, they will be scrutinized and may well end up feeling as if they've been violated a second time (how many people report a stolen car and get asked if they're sure it was stolen? Maybe they lent it to someone and just forgot? Why did they park it in that neighborhood, anyway?). Because we're held to an impossible double standard. Because we've internalized the message that it wouldn't be right to damage that man's career prospects. Or because we live in a "that's just how men are!" culture. Or because we've been told that if we say anything, we will be blackballed from our profession or from society. So we decide(d) that maybe what happened wasn't so terrible, maybe it wasn't worth the hassle of speaking up, maybe we had brought it on ourselves.

I'm an affluent, well-educated, white woman. Virtually every woman I know has been harassed or assaulted -- gropes, threats, rapes, repeated abuse, unwanted advances.

In the Kavanaugh case, some people are questioning Dr. Ford's memory -- why can't she remember the date and location of the assault, but she can remember who did it? As I told my husband, I can remember the name of the kid who pushed me down and climbed on top of me in sixth grade -- and the guy who stuck the penis from the human anatomy model down the back of my pants -- and the guy in high school who casually offered to have me gang-raped after school because I dared to voice an opinion in religion class. I remember the guy who screamed at me and tried to attack me because I was unimpressed by his weasel 'stache, and I remember the name of the guy who raped me (and later told everyone what I whore I was), and the guy who, a few months later, called me scum and told me to crawl back under my rock when I reacted poorly to him thinking it would be cute to grab a stranger (me) by the shoulders, shake her, and yell "Smile!!"

And I remember the science teacher who tried to make me bend over in a miniskirt in front of the class just because he could. And I remember the guys who groped me just because they were bored. And I remember the guy at a high school dance who handcuffed me to him, stuck his tongue down my throat, gave me massive hickeys, and tried to drag me out to his car. I never did get his name -- too busy trying to get rid of the hickeys because I was afraid of what would happen to me when I got home. I remember that he was twice my size, though.

And I can still describe the guy who tried to attack me while I was running on the beach last summer.

We remember the important details, is what I'm saying. 

curmudgeoness

I'm the parent of young men; one of them is a musician. Thanks to the Washington Post, the classical music world is having its own #MeToo moment. I can tell you that there is PLENTY of bad behavior that needs to be called out and rooted out in that field, too. What's out in the public view right now is just the beginning -- and those stories have been open secrets for many years. I have heard hair-raising stories about various people from MANY different sources. If someone has enough power, enough influence, enough value, their bad behavior will be ignored. Those who are victimized (and they're NOT always women!) are in positions of relative weakness, so they have stayed quiet out of fear of damage to their own professional reputations.

My hope is that #MeToo is not just a moment, but that it signals the beginning of real change. I'm not holding my breath, but I am holding on to hope.

HughFreakingDillon

curmudgeoness said:

Has it gone too far? No.

Why has the predatory behavior gone on for so long? Because the victims aren't taken seriously (how many women had to come forward before people believed the allegations against Bill Cosby?). Because victims know that if they make their accusations public, they will be scrutinized and may well end up feeling as if they've been violated a second time (how many people report a stolen car and get asked if they're sure it was stolen? Maybe they lent it to someone and just forgot? Why did they park it in that neighborhood, anyway?). Because we're held to an impossible double standard. Because we've internalized the message that it wouldn't be right to damage that man's career prospects. Or because we live in a "that's just how men are!" culture. Or because we've been told that if we say anything, we will be blackballed from our profession or from society. So we decide(d) that maybe what happened wasn't so terrible, maybe it wasn't worth the hassle of speaking up, maybe we had brought it on ourselves.

I'm an affluent, well-educated, white woman. Virtually every woman I know has been harassed or assaulted -- gropes, threats, rapes, repeated abuse, unwanted advances.

In the Kavanaugh case, some people are questioning Dr. Ford's memory -- why can't she remember the date and location of the assault, but she can remember who did it? As I told my husband, I can remember the name of the kid who pushed me down and climbed on top of me in sixth grade -- and the guy who stuck the penis from the human anatomy model down the back of my pants -- and the guy in high school who casually offered to have me gang-raped after school because I dared to voice an opinion in religion class. I remember the guy who screamed at me and tried to attack me because I was unimpressed by his weasel 'stache, and I remember the name of the guy who raped me (and later told everyone what I whore I was), and the guy who, a few months later, called me scum and told me to crawl back under my rock when I reacted poorly to him thinking it would be cute to grab a stranger (me) by the shoulders, shake her, and yell "Smile!!"

And I remember the science teacher who tried to make me bend over in a miniskirt in front of the class just because he could. And I remember the guys who groped me just because they were bored. And I remember the guy at a high school dance who handcuffed me to him, stuck his tongue down my throat, gave me massive hickeys, and tried to drag me out to his car. I never did get his name -- too busy trying to get rid of the hickeys because I was afraid of what would happen to me when I got home. I remember that he was twice my size, though.

And I can still describe the guy who tried to attack me while I was running on the beach last summer.

We remember the important details, is what I'm saying. 

jesus fucking christ. I'm so sorry all of this happened to you. that's awful. 

curmudgeoness

No. It's standard. That's my point. I know so many women -- too many women -- who have dealt with far worse.

HughFreakingDillon

curmudgeoness said:

No. It's standard. That's my point. I know so many women -- too many women -- who have dealt with far worse.

standard or not. it's still awful. 

cincybearcat

curmudgeoness said:

No. It's standard. That's my point. I know so many women -- too many women -- who have dealt with far worse.

You make a solid point about remembering the important details 

LongestRoad

Meltdown99 said:

Go through the proper authorities, not the media.  I don’t give a sit if .000000001% are fake, some innocent men’s lives are getting ruined from vindictive asshole self righteous woman...

This is bullshit. Go through the proper channels so they can make you look bad and help cover up the shit?!?! You ass!!! Calling someone hon is not harassment. Some ape keeping you from getting away from them and getting in your personal space is! Fuck the proper channels. The only way it's going to stop is to make it public knowledge. The only way it will stop is if people know they will be held accountable. You prick. Keep defending scum. 

brianlux

I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

Be safe  ladies.

Be kind guys.

my2hands

#MeToo hasn't gone far enough in my opinion

And sexual assault should have no statute of limitations 

LongestRoad

brianlux said:

I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

Be safe  ladies.

Be kind guys.

It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 

Meltdown99

Should rename the AMT The Drama Zone....

brianlux

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

Be safe  ladies.

Be kind guys.

It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 

Have you ever gotten someone to see what you're trying to say while at the same time called them an asshole or fuck you and shit like that?  I haven't.

LongestRoad

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

Be safe  ladies.

Be kind guys.

It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 

Have you ever gotten someone to see what you're trying to say while at the same time called them an asshole or fuck you and shit like that?  I haven't.

I understand what you're saying and I agree for the majority of topics. I can assure you though that the message got accross. Some people just don't comprehend what consent or non consent is. It otherwise gets brushed aside like it always has in the past. Calling women or anyone that's been violated vindictive is wrong. It's good people are speaking out now in whatever way needed for it to be brought out into the open and make people think twice about their actions. And I can tell you from my own experience going through "proper channels" is not the way that will help you. They will try to make you look bad and will reward the garbage to cover it up. They worry more about a possibility of their company getting bad publicity than of the person getting harrassed.  

cincybearcat

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

Be safe  ladies.

Be kind guys.

It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 

Actually if you read what he wrote....he was writing about false accusations specifically.  But again this is why so many topics can't be talked about.  

rgambs

cincybearcat said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

Be safe  ladies.

Be kind guys.

It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 

Actually if you read what he wrote....he was writing about false accusations specifically.  But again this is why so many topics can't be talked about.  

He wasn't able or wouldn't deign to give a single example of the false allegations that have him ranting and raving so....yeah, the proof is in the pudding.

cincybearcat

rgambs said:

cincybearcat said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

Be safe  ladies.

Be kind guys.

It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 

Actually if you read what he wrote....he was writing about false accusations specifically.  But again this is why so many topics can't be talked about.  

He wasn't able or wouldn't deign to give a single example of the false allegations that have him ranting and raving so....yeah, the proof is in the pudding.

Duke Lacrosse

But I understand that there are very few false accusations.  But since there are some....shouldn't their be some due process?  This is a tough one for me honestly.  Just like it is wrong to immediately dismiss the accuser of being some bitter person who's lying, it would equally be wrong to immediately believe 1 accuser and dismiss someone as a sexual predator/Sexual assailant.  Each situation is very unique and needs to be investigated.

cincybearcat

my2hands said:

#MeToo hasn't gone far enough in my opinion

And sexual assault should have no statute of limitations 

I'll have to do some reading and thinking about Statue of limitations....I'm leaning your way but I just don't know.