This thread has gone far enough. "Be kind." -Ilona Anne Coggswater

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Comments

  • unsung said:
    Mainly because I don’t see it as a need and that a change for no reason other than filling a demographic is ridiculous.
    What is it about strong, powerful women, particularly women of color, that strikes such fear in your heart?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

    Brilliantati©
  • unsung said:
    Mainly because I don’t see it as a need and that a change for no reason other than filling a demographic is ridiculous.
    No need? How’s the recruitment of priests going these days? How about Catholics in general?

    And what are the results from the current system...good?  You can blame it all on 1 guy that’s been in power for a few years or you can face the harsh reality of the real issue (good old boys network and enticing creeps into the clergy).
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fifefife Posts: 3,284
    unsung said:
    People are having careers ruined by a simple accusation on incidents that allegedly happened more than ten years ago.  

    A little more proof should be required before convicting these people, but a simple accusation is all that seems to be needed.
    Can you tell me who career has been ruined by a simple accusation?
  • curmudgeonesscurmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capitalPosts: 2,553
    Has it gone too far? No.
    Why has the predatory behavior gone on for so long? Because the victims aren't taken seriously (how many women had to come forward before people believed the allegations against Bill Cosby?). Because victims know that if they make their accusations public, they will be scrutinized and may well end up feeling as if they've been violated a second time (how many people report a stolen car and get asked if they're sure it was stolen? Maybe they lent it to someone and just forgot? Why did they park it in that neighborhood, anyway?). Because we're held to an impossible double standard. Because we've internalized the message that it wouldn't be right to damage that man's career prospects. Or because we live in a "that's just how men are!" culture. Or because we've been told that if we say anything, we will be blackballed from our profession or from society. So we decide(d) that maybe what happened wasn't so terrible, maybe it wasn't worth the hassle of speaking up, maybe we had brought it on ourselves.

    I'm an affluent, well-educated, white woman. Virtually every woman I know has been harassed or assaulted -- gropes, threats, rapes, repeated abuse, unwanted advances.

    In the Kavanaugh case, some people are questioning Dr. Ford's memory -- why can't she remember the date and location of the assault, but she can remember who did it? As I told my husband, I can remember the name of the kid who pushed me down and climbed on top of me in sixth grade -- and the guy who stuck the penis from the human anatomy model down the back of my pants -- and the guy in high school who casually offered to have me gang-raped after school because I dared to voice an opinion in religion class. I remember the guy who screamed at me and tried to attack me because I was unimpressed by his weasel 'stache, and I remember the name of the guy who raped me (and later told everyone what I whore I was), and the guy who, a few months later, called me scum and told me to crawl back under my rock when I reacted poorly to him thinking it would be cute to grab a stranger (me) by the shoulders, shake her, and yell "Smile!!"

    And I remember the science teacher who tried to make me bend over in a miniskirt in front of the class just because he could. And I remember the guys who groped me just because they were bored. And I remember the guy at a high school dance who handcuffed me to him, stuck his tongue down my throat, gave me massive hickeys, and tried to drag me out to his car. I never did get his name -- too busy trying to get rid of the hickeys because I was afraid of what would happen to me when I got home. I remember that he was twice my size, though.

    And I can still describe the guy who tried to attack me while I was running on the beach last summer.

    We remember the important details, is what I'm saying. 
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • curmudgeonesscurmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capitalPosts: 2,553
    I'm the parent of young men; one of them is a musician. Thanks to the Washington Post, the classical music world is having its own #MeToo moment. I can tell you that there is PLENTY of bad behavior that needs to be called out and rooted out in that field, too. What's out in the public view right now is just the beginning -- and those stories have been open secrets for many years. I have heard hair-raising stories about various people from MANY different sources. If someone has enough power, enough influence, enough value, their bad behavior will be ignored. Those who are victimized (and they're NOT always women!) are in positions of relative weakness, so they have stayed quiet out of fear of damage to their own professional reputations.

    My hope is that #MeToo is not just a moment, but that it signals the beginning of real change. I'm not holding my breath, but I am holding on to hope.
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 18,808
    Has it gone too far? No.
    Why has the predatory behavior gone on for so long? Because the victims aren't taken seriously (how many women had to come forward before people believed the allegations against Bill Cosby?). Because victims know that if they make their accusations public, they will be scrutinized and may well end up feeling as if they've been violated a second time (how many people report a stolen car and get asked if they're sure it was stolen? Maybe they lent it to someone and just forgot? Why did they park it in that neighborhood, anyway?). Because we're held to an impossible double standard. Because we've internalized the message that it wouldn't be right to damage that man's career prospects. Or because we live in a "that's just how men are!" culture. Or because we've been told that if we say anything, we will be blackballed from our profession or from society. So we decide(d) that maybe what happened wasn't so terrible, maybe it wasn't worth the hassle of speaking up, maybe we had brought it on ourselves.

    I'm an affluent, well-educated, white woman. Virtually every woman I know has been harassed or assaulted -- gropes, threats, rapes, repeated abuse, unwanted advances.

    In the Kavanaugh case, some people are questioning Dr. Ford's memory -- why can't she remember the date and location of the assault, but she can remember who did it? As I told my husband, I can remember the name of the kid who pushed me down and climbed on top of me in sixth grade -- and the guy who stuck the penis from the human anatomy model down the back of my pants -- and the guy in high school who casually offered to have me gang-raped after school because I dared to voice an opinion in religion class. I remember the guy who screamed at me and tried to attack me because I was unimpressed by his weasel 'stache, and I remember the name of the guy who raped me (and later told everyone what I whore I was), and the guy who, a few months later, called me scum and told me to crawl back under my rock when I reacted poorly to him thinking it would be cute to grab a stranger (me) by the shoulders, shake her, and yell "Smile!!"

    And I remember the science teacher who tried to make me bend over in a miniskirt in front of the class just because he could. And I remember the guys who groped me just because they were bored. And I remember the guy at a high school dance who handcuffed me to him, stuck his tongue down my throat, gave me massive hickeys, and tried to drag me out to his car. I never did get his name -- too busy trying to get rid of the hickeys because I was afraid of what would happen to me when I got home. I remember that he was twice my size, though.

    And I can still describe the guy who tried to attack me while I was running on the beach last summer.

    We remember the important details, is what I'm saying. 
    jesus fucking christ. I'm so sorry all of this happened to you. that's awful. 
    Headstones Fan Boy
  • curmudgeonesscurmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capitalPosts: 2,553
    No. It's standard. That's my point. I know so many women -- too many women -- who have dealt with far worse.
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 18,808
    No. It's standard. That's my point. I know so many women -- too many women -- who have dealt with far worse.
    standard or not. it's still awful. 
    Headstones Fan Boy
  • No. It's standard. That's my point. I know so many women -- too many women -- who have dealt with far worse.
    You make a solid point about remembering the important details 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Go through the proper authorities, not the media.  I don’t give a sit if .000000001% are fake, some innocent men’s lives are getting ruined from vindictive asshole self righteous woman...
    This is bullshit. Go through the proper channels so they can make you look bad and help cover up the shit?!?! You ass!!! Calling someone hon is not harassment. Some ape keeping you from getting away from them and getting in your personal space is! Fuck the proper channels. The only way it's going to stop is to make it public knowledge. The only way it will stop is if people know they will be held accountable. You prick. Keep defending scum. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,281
    I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

    Be safe  ladies.
    Be kind guys.
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,118
    #MeToo hasn't gone far enough in my opinion

    And sexual assault should have no statute of limitations 
  • brianlux said:
    I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

    Be safe  ladies.
    Be kind guys.
    It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 7,153
    Should rename the AMT The Drama Zone....
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 28,281
    brianlux said:
    I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

    Be safe  ladies.
    Be kind guys.
    It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 
    Have you ever gotten someone to see what you're trying to say while at the same time called them an asshole or fuck you and shit like that?  I haven't.
    "Hate your job, love your stuff
    If you think that's living, you are
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong"
    -Juliana Hatfield
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.







  • brianlux said:
    brianlux said:
    I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

    Be safe  ladies.
    Be kind guys.
    It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 
    Have you ever gotten someone to see what you're trying to say while at the same time called them an asshole or fuck you and shit like that?  I haven't.
    I understand what you're saying and I agree for the majority of topics. I can assure you though that the message got accross. Some people just don't comprehend what consent or non consent is. It otherwise gets brushed aside like it always has in the past. Calling women or anyone that's been violated vindictive is wrong. It's good people are speaking out now in whatever way needed for it to be brought out into the open and make people think twice about their actions. And I can tell you from my own experience going through "proper channels" is not the way that will help you. They will try to make you look bad and will reward the garbage to cover it up. They worry more about a possibility of their company getting bad publicity than of the person getting harrassed.  
  • brianlux said:
    I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

    Be safe  ladies.
    Be kind guys.
    It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 
    Actually if you read what he wrote....he was writing about false accusations specifically.  But again this is why so many topics can't be talked about.  
    hippiemom = goodness
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,167
    brianlux said:
    I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

    Be safe  ladies.
    Be kind guys.
    It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 
    Actually if you read what he wrote....he was writing about false accusations specifically.  But again this is why so many topics can't be talked about.  
    He wasn't able or wouldn't deign to give a single example of the false allegations that have him ranting and raving so....yeah, the proof is in the pudding.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,584
    edited September 2018
    rgambs said:
    brianlux said:
    I thought we could have an adult conversation about a serious subject.  If it were up to me, I'd shut this thing down.

    Be safe  ladies.
    Be kind guys.
    It would be great to have an adult conversation about a very serious topic but some asshole calling women who have been violated vindictive is crossing the line of a proper conversation. 
    Actually if you read what he wrote....he was writing about false accusations specifically.  But again this is why so many topics can't be talked about.  
    He wasn't able or wouldn't deign to give a single example of the false allegations that have him ranting and raving so....yeah, the proof is in the pudding.
    Duke Lacrosse

    But I understand that there are very few false accusations.  But since there are some....shouldn't their be some due process?  This is a tough one for me honestly.  Just like it is wrong to immediately dismiss the accuser of being some bitter person who's lying, it would equally be wrong to immediately believe 1 accuser and dismiss someone as a sexual predator/Sexual assailant.  Each situation is very unique and needs to be investigated.
    Post edited by cincybearcat on
    hippiemom = goodness
  • my2hands said:
    #MeToo hasn't gone far enough in my opinion

    And sexual assault should have no statute of limitations 
    I'll have to do some reading and thinking about Statue of limitations....I'm leaning your way but I just don't know.  
    hippiemom = goodness
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,167
     JjI think the #metoo movement hasn't gone too far enough. (Futurama reference!)

    The only thing that I don't care for is that it stifles dialogue a bit.  The more extreme faction is dictating acceptable and unacceptable regions of conversation and that isn't the best case scenario.
    For instance, I have been castigated and demeaned for opposing some very broad generalisations.  When the Aziz thing happened, I was seeing dozens of women all over the place assert that every woman has been violated the way that lady was.  Very much not true, there are millions of women who have never been violated like that for many different reasons.  I spoke up here and there to mention that my mother, my wife, her sister, her mother, her cousins...almost nobody in her majority female family has experienced a date like that.  It's not a coincidence that none of them ever went to a man's house after a first date for a hook-up.  None of them have ever had sex with a stranger.  Are their voices and stories irrelevant in the #metoo era?  Is it right that they are spoken for?  This line of thought, given gently and diplomatically, was drummed out of town as victim blaming.

    @curmudgeoness ;
    Please don't think I doubt the veracity of your experience, but it isn't just "standard".
    The women in my life haven't endured most of those things.  Much of the reason for that is luck, but not all.  This is a direction of conversation that is forbidden, and I'm not a fan of that.  

    We have to teach our sons about respect and consent...everyone accepts that.
    We have to teach our daughters to be careful and guarded against men who behave worse than animals...I'm an asshole for saying it.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • curmudgeonesscurmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capitalPosts: 2,553
    rgambs said:
     JjI think the #metoo movement hasn't gone too far enough. (Futurama reference!)

    The only thing that I don't care for is that it stifles dialogue a bit.  The more extreme faction is dictating acceptable and unacceptable regions of conversation and that isn't the best case scenario.
    For instance, I have been castigated and demeaned for opposing some very broad generalisations.  When the Aziz thing happened, I was seeing dozens of women all over the place assert that every woman has been violated the way that lady was.  Very much not true, there are millions of women who have never been violated like that for many different reasons.  I spoke up here and there to mention that my mother, my wife, her sister, her mother, her cousins...almost nobody in her majority female family has experienced a date like that.  It's not a coincidence that none of them ever went to a man's house after a first date for a hook-up.  None of them have ever had sex with a stranger.  Are their voices and stories irrelevant in the #metoo era?  Is it right that they are spoken for?  This line of thought, given gently and diplomatically, was drummed out of town as victim blaming.

    @curmudgeoness ;
    Please don't think I doubt the veracity of your experience, but it isn't just "standard".
    The women in my life haven't endured most of those things.  Much of the reason for that is luck, but not all.  This is a direction of conversation that is forbidden, and I'm not a fan of that.  

    We have to teach our sons about respect and consent...everyone accepts that.
    We have to teach our daughters to be careful and guarded against men who behave worse than animals...I'm an asshole for saying it.

    @rgambs speaking as a woman... during the presidential debates in 2016, there was a lot of, pardon the phrase, triggering behavior displayed by a certain candidate. I was still on Facebook at the time. I can tell you that every woman --- every one -- on my "friends" list had at least one story. These women are mostly white, mostly affluent, all with a minimum of a bachelor's degree. Their stories make me embarrassed to tell mine, because my experiences are so trifling in comparison.

    I mentioned in my second post the stories roiling classical music right now. I was speaking to a friend, a professional musician, about one of the now-disgraced men. She said she never had a problem of that sort with him. I said, she was lucky, as I had heard from multiple people about his tendency to prey on high-school girls.... (something that is not in the news, BTW).

    I'll take your latter comment about how you think it's more than luck as well-intentioned, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. There's a lot more than "maybe you shouldn't do X or go to Y at Z time!" involved. A lot is luck, or coincidence, or bad timing. I went to very good schools. I was loudly and aggressively propositioned by men while sober, in broad daylight, in group settings, while looking for work, by male chaperones on trips, you name it. I am not beautiful, I am not slutty, I am not hyper-sexy. I'm a very average female.

    Now, I'd be willing to consider that self-confidence is a factor. After the guy came at me for no reason last year on the beach, I got angry instead of scared. I took self-defense lessons (real ones). I bought pepper spray. I developed an attitude. People no longer mess with me.

    So, yes, that could be a factor. But: I raised two men, and I see it as my job, as their parent, to tell them to keep their hands to themselves, to know what consent is, to respect boundaries, and to step in if they see trouble. It wasn't difficult to convey those messages, and both of them got the message, loud and clear. Keeping in mind that sexual assault and harassment really are about power, not sex, what we are talking about is bullying, abuse of power, not hormones run wild. Trying to make this behavior about sex obfuscates the true underlying cause --- power, and abuse of it. After all, again, men can be and are victims of sexual harassment and assault, too.
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,167
    edited September 2018
    Another example I've experienced is in regards to human/sex trafficking.
    Everyone talks about it, but at least 75% of people have no clue what the hell they are talking about.  For years I have been combating this weird quirk in our society that has middle aged, middle and upper class white women just terrified of themselves and their daughters being kidnapped into sex slavery.  Social media abounds with ridiculous hoaxes that have these complicated Wiley Coyote plots for ensnaring wealthy white women from mall parking lots.  Business cards laced with exotic drugs or GPS locators, teams of men working to isolate women from possible help and scouting potential victims, text messages that, if replied, give your information and location to sex traffickers who will come steal you away...and tens of thousands of women just eat that shit up without question! 
    I have a link I've been posting for a few years that addresses this myth and talks about the reality of the sex trafficking, who the victims actually are, how they are "captured" (they usually aren't) and how the myth of the white woman abduction into slavery only perpetuates the risk for those who are actually at risk.
    I can't post that link anymore since #metoo hit.  The backlash is ridiculous.  There was an infographic circulating Facebook on advertisements in northeast Ohio that are related to human trafficking. A couple hundred were listed...mostly Craigslist hookers, obviously, but they also do this thing with "Need cash now?" signs, they fish for women vulnerable enough to accept bad situations that will get worse. 
    The comment section was absolute insanity.  Middle aged, middle class white women were losing their minds thinking the hundreds were how many children have already been abducted into slavery, all sorts of Comet Pizza-style rumors...Honest truth, there was a septagenarian who was commenting to make sure that senior citizens keep their heads of a swivel because the sex traffickers were after them too.

    I posted the link, one woman agreed with me and the link, and forty others lost their minds about how I didn't understand the risk because I was a man.  They certainly didn't want to hear that the mall is statistically a safer place for their teenage daughters to be than in their own bedrooms with unfettered internet access.
    My hometown of 5,000 people has seen 11 false accusations of attempted kidnapping in 4 years.  The most recent was a man trying to open a door for a woman with a child in the rain. That's outrageous, but I wouldn't have much of a problem with it if open and honest dialogue about it was still on the table.
    Post edited by rgambs on
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 12,167
    rgambs said:
     JjI think the #metoo movement hasn't gone too far enough. (Futurama reference!)

    The only thing that I don't care for is that it stifles dialogue a bit.  The more extreme faction is dictating acceptable and unacceptable regions of conversation and that isn't the best case scenario.
    For instance, I have been castigated and demeaned for opposing some very broad generalisations.  When the Aziz thing happened, I was seeing dozens of women all over the place assert that every woman has been violated the way that lady was.  Very much not true, there are millions of women who have never been violated like that for many different reasons.  I spoke up here and there to mention that my mother, my wife, her sister, her mother, her cousins...almost nobody in her majority female family has experienced a date like that.  It's not a coincidence that none of them ever went to a man's house after a first date for a hook-up.  None of them have ever had sex with a stranger.  Are their voices and stories irrelevant in the #metoo era?  Is it right that they are spoken for?  This line of thought, given gently and diplomatically, was drummed out of town as victim blaming.

    @curmudgeoness ;
    Please don't think I doubt the veracity of your experience, but it isn't just "standard".
    The women in my life haven't endured most of those things.  Much of the reason for that is luck, but not all.  This is a direction of conversation that is forbidden, and I'm not a fan of that.  

    We have to teach our sons about respect and consent...everyone accepts that.
    We have to teach our daughters to be careful and guarded against men who behave worse than animals...I'm an asshole for saying it.

    @rgambs speaking as a woman... during the presidential debates in 2016, there was a lot of, pardon the phrase, triggering behavior displayed by a certain candidate. I was still on Facebook at the time. I can tell you that every woman --- every one -- on my "friends" list had at least one story. These women are mostly white, mostly affluent, all with a minimum of a bachelor's degree. Their stories make me embarrassed to tell mine, because my experiences are so trifling in comparison.

    I mentioned in my second post the stories roiling classical music right now. I was speaking to a friend, a professional musician, about one of the now-disgraced men. She said she never had a problem of that sort with him. I said, she was lucky, as I had heard from multiple people about his tendency to prey on high-school girls.... (something that is not in the news, BTW).

    I'll take your latter comment about how you think it's more than luck as well-intentioned, but I'm going to have to disagree with you. There's a lot more than "maybe you shouldn't do X or go to Y at Z time!" involved. A lot is luck, or coincidence, or bad timing. I went to very good schools. I was loudly and aggressively propositioned by men while sober, in broad daylight, in group settings, while looking for work, by male chaperones on trips, you name it. I am not beautiful, I am not slutty, I am not hyper-sexy. I'm a very average female.

    Now, I'd be willing to consider that self-confidence is a factor. After the guy came at me for no reason last year on the beach, I got angry instead of scared. I took self-defense lessons (real ones). I bought pepper spray. I developed an attitude. People no longer mess with me.

    So, yes, that could be a factor. But: I raised two men, and I see it as my job, as their parent, to tell them to keep their hands to themselves, to know what consent is, to respect boundaries, and to step in if they see trouble. It wasn't difficult to convey those messages, and both of them got the message, loud and clear. Keeping in mind that sexual assault and harassment really are about power, not sex, what we are talking about is bullying, abuse of power, not hormones run wild. Trying to make this behavior about sex obfuscates the true underlying cause --- power, and abuse of it. After all, again, men can be and are victims of sexual harassment and assault, too.
    I definitely agree with you there, women are victimised every day at random and without any choices or behaviours that could be called into question even by a Puritan pilgrim.
    My point was that certain choices and behaviours putting women at a higher risk has become a fact which is no longer admissable to the discussion.  I understand that there are troglodytes out there still saying "she shouldn't have worn that dress, she was asking for it" and I understand why this fact's adjacency to those troglodytes makes people uncomfortable, but if it's given respectfully and with tact from someone who supports the #metoo movement, then it shouldn't be shouted down.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 5,251
    Wow, this thread sure seems to have touched people in some inappropriate places...
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • curmudgeonesscurmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capitalPosts: 2,553
    I hate those stories. They are, on their face, absurd. But they also eat their way into your brain, even if you know they're ridiculous.

    So, I'm a runner. I love trail running. But I've been conditioned to believe that, as a woman, I cannot and must not do trail runs, because there are rapists hiding behind every tree, just waiting to grab women who are foolish enough to venture into the woods. Maybe they grew tired of hiding under cars in mall parking lots, I don't know.

    I've had to work, actively, on overcoming apprehensions about running on trails -- or running alone outside, at all. That's one reason why I got so angry last year when a guy came after me. I live in a very safe place, I've taken pains to make smart decisions, to get comfortable with the basic act of going for a run outdoors, and some asshole is going to ruin that for me?? I don't think so.

    I wonder who starts these rumors, and what their actual motivation is. Because the end result is that many women, even women who live in safe areas, will not run outdoors alone, at any time. And they won't run errands after dark. And they don't feel safe walking to their cars. It's absurd, but it's also very limiting. We internalize the message that we need to limit, to restrict, our own behavior, because some men can't control themselves. We start to believe that we need to be afraid of leaving our homes and moving about in the world. We accept that  we bear the responsibility to stop people who would behave badly toward us. And that's just wrong.
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • curmudgeonesscurmudgeoness Brigadoon, foodie capitalPosts: 2,553
    ... and, since not every thread on here needs to be about Agent Orange, I'll save my thoughts about President Pussy Grabber's latest tweet and channel that rage into my workout, even though it's relevant here.  Rick Wilson said it best: "FFS."
    All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it.
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 5,251
    edited September 2018
    I hate those stories. They are, on their face, absurd. But they also eat their way into your brain, even if you know they're ridiculous.

    So, I'm a runner. I love trail running. But I've been conditioned to believe that, as a woman, I cannot and must not do trail runs, because there are rapists hiding behind every tree, just waiting to grab women who are foolish enough to venture into the woods. Maybe they grew tired of hiding under cars in mall parking lots, I don't know.

    I've had to work, actively, on overcoming apprehensions about running on trails -- or running alone outside, at all. That's one reason why I got so angry last year when a guy came after me. I live in a very safe place, I've taken pains to make smart decisions, to get comfortable with the basic act of going for a run outdoors, and some asshole is going to ruin that for me?? I don't think so.

    I wonder who starts these rumors, and what their actual motivation is. Because the end result is that many women, even women who live in safe areas, will not run outdoors alone, at any time. And they won't run errands after dark. And they don't feel safe walking to their cars. It's absurd, but it's also very limiting. We internalize the message that we need to limit, to restrict, our own behavior, because some men can't control themselves. We start to believe that we need to be afraid of leaving our homes and moving about in the world. We accept that  we bear the responsibility to stop people who would behave badly toward us. And that's just wrong.
    It’s not just women being assaulted that scares me.  There are all types of sickos out there and due to population density, there are only going to be more of them in the future.  I suggest you get a dog or taser or an (oh my God scary) handgun to carry when you can.
    On another note, this kind of shit has been going on for centuries, and it is important to teach women to not put themselves in situations where they increase the likelihood of these things happening.  I’m not saying it is fair, but women do need to be more aware of their surroundings than men.  Ever see deer in their “rut”?  I do not believe teenage boys act much differently...
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
    "At least I'm housebroken"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon In My PlacePosts: 18,808
    edited September 2018
    I honestly get nervous when my wife decides to go for a walk by the river after dark. I do have an anxiety and overactive imagination problem, but still......with two daughters, I'm going to have a VERY difficult time.
    Headstones Fan Boy
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER In Yo FacePosts: 5,251
    I honestly get nervous when my wife decides to go for a walk by the river after dark. I do have an anxiety and overactive imagination problem, but still......with two daughters, I'm going to have a VERY difficult time.
    Same here...but at least my wife is pretty proficient with a firearm.  But every time she goes somewhere alone, my protective mind goes instinctual and I imagine the worst of the worst possible scenarios.  
    "At least I'm housebroken"
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