Canadian Politics Redux

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

fife said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   

The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  

mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.

 

I understand this.

My whole point is that we must balance public safety with our concern for the individual. People who self harm pose no risk to anyone other than themselves. If someone is capable of tearing apart a human being when suffering from a break... then we should proceed very carefully to say the least.

I don't believe we have proceeded with caution in this case. 

Maybe but the question is , for how long of a period?  considering this case and the emotion around it, i really don't believe that all the doctors were going to take a risk and let him go if they thought that he would re-offend. 

fife said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

fife said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   

The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  

mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.

 

I understand this.

My whole point is that we must balance public safety with our concern for the individual. People who self harm pose no risk to anyone other than themselves. If someone is capable of tearing apart a human being when suffering from a break... then we should proceed very carefully to say the least.

I don't believe we have proceeded with caution in this case. 

Maybe but the question is , for how long of a period?  considering this case and the emotion around it, i really don't believe that all the doctors were going to take a risk and let him go if they thought that he would re-offend. 

Good question.

You have a man that has demonstrated he is capable of killing and mutilating a random person when suffering from a psychotic episode. This is a risk in my mind. I wouldn't want such a person living in the house next to mine and my children.

And doctors don't always nail it- especially with human behaviour which is far from an exact science.

Average Canadian family paying more than $12K to fund public health care: study

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/average-canadian-family-paying-more-than-12k-to-fund-public-health-care-study-1.4034416

12000 grand for what?  Long wait times for just about everything.

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

fife said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

   

My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  

Yes to your reply. There is more than ample evidence that Li was floridly psychotic and profoundly affected by delusions and hallucinations at the time of his actions, and anyone who argues that his behaviour itself suggests he was driven by something other than psychosis has no understanding of what psychosis is like. 

Additionally, contrary to the Conservative government’s position, when someone has been found NCRMD, the “brutality” of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offense, and this shouldn’t be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the “high risk” designation. 
 

The brutality of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offence and should not be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the 'high risk' definition? I'd beg to differ. 

I looked to see if I could find anything that definitively supports what you have stated here, but could not find anything. If you were speaking in a legal sense... then I'd still disagree (just as I would disagree with the legal concept where a rapist's prior rapes cannot be used against him when proving his guilt for his most recent rape- each crime is a unique and separate event).

Multiple studies show recidivism rates for people with severe mental illness are very high. Similar studies show that recidivism rates are very high when substance abuse is coupled with severe mental illness. My point being: it's all fine and dandy Li was a model patient while under the watchful eye of clinicians; however, leaving him to his own devices without any monitoring is quite a leap of faith.   

We do have data that shows that the severity of the index offence bears no relation to the risk of future offending in the Canadian NCRMD population. The National Trajectory Project has looked at this very question. I didn't just make it up.

I'm including a link here to a paper written addressing this and other aspects of Bill C-14

http://jaapl.org/content/45/1/44

The fact that you somehow bring legal aspects related to sexual assault trials into this shows that you have very little understanding of what the NCRMD designation means and how the finding is made.

There is plenty of other evidence around that touches on aspects of what you've brought up. In the past I have spent time posting about this, as have some other posters. What we got back was "buy him a latte" and "give him a hug" and "he should rot in prison" and "this is why we need the death penalty". I'm not going to waste my time any further.

I brought up the 'legal aspects' because- as I said- I couldn't find anything to support what you were saying (and expressed this). I offered it in the event you were speaking from a legal perspective that did not concern itself with the characteristics of the murder (ignore the abhorrent qualities of the murder and focus on the murder... just like a court might ignore the past of a serial rapist). 

The link you offered doesn't answer the concern.

It talks of recidivism rates and seems to support the notion that (from the link) 'the severity of the index offence did not affect the likelihood of recidivism against persons'. In a response to Fife you said, "the “brutality” of the act bears no relation to the risk of relapse or re-offense, and this shouldn’t be taken into account when looking at whether someone fits the “high risk” designation." 

The link and you are statistically categorizing Li's murder with other violent acts of the more common variety- ignoring the characteristics or nature of the crime which, in my mind, have made it very unique. I don't feel using data comprised by studying other violent offenders who have committed 'typical' violent acts serves as an accurate or meaningful predictor for the future behaviour for Li.

Interestingly, the link speaks of Li and Schoenborn- both who have been the subject of this discussion several times.

And come on, man. You are throughout these pages taking shots at various people so don't speak as if you are above saying something goofy to someone you disagree with (see recent Trump thread for evidence of this). You took a snide little shot at me here in this post when you misunderstood what I was saying in response to your original assertion (that was unsupported and left to my interpretation).

So chill out. I've never held a grudge against you even though I disagree with some things you have said and in some cases the way you have said them as well.  

* And PJSoul and I both asked for clarification regarding Li's unconditional release. We are of the understanding he has no support or monitoring at this time... is this correct? You seemed to suggest otherwise in a post to someone else.

Veterans threaten to give back special licence plates if RCMP are eligible for same plates

https://globalnews.ca/news/4361946/veterans-threaten-to-give-back-special-licence-plates-if-rcmp-are-eligible-for-same-plates/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalBC

LMFAO ... the only people that needed to be consulted were veterans.  It appears they are no.  What a waste of time...

Three-year sentence for Manitoba teen in deadly beating that was put on web

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/three-year-sentence-for-manitoba-teen-in-deadly-beating-that-was-put-on-web-1.4038378?cid=sm:trueanthem:ctvnews:post&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5b65019f9ac5640001e30cd8&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

from the article...

Provincial court Judge Lindy Choy called the attack a reprehensible act of "astonishing cruelty".

"Serena was not fighting back. She was lying down, crying," Choy said as she sentenced the teenager.

"It is clear that you had no mercy."

Shortly afterward, the girl uploaded a picture of herself on social media. She was partly covered in blood, and the picture had the caption: "I've been chilling," Choy said.

Makes you wonder why the judge would show her mercy ... our justice system is a joke.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Meltdown99 said:

Three-year sentence for Manitoba teen in deadly beating that was put on web

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/three-year-sentence-for-manitoba-teen-in-deadly-beating-that-was-put-on-web-1.4038378?cid=sm:trueanthem:ctvnews:post&utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5b65019f9ac5640001e30cd8&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

from the article...

Provincial court Judge Lindy Choy called the attack a reprehensible act of "astonishing cruelty".

"Serena was not fighting back. She was lying down, crying," Choy said as she sentenced the teenager.

"It is clear that you had no mercy."

Shortly afterward, the girl uploaded a picture of herself on social media. She was partly covered in blood, and the picture had the caption: "I've been chilling," Choy said.

Makes you wonder why the judge would show her mercy ... our justice system is a joke.

A tough case.

The kids are young, but they are not that young. It's really a two year sentence (with the third supervised).

Young offenders are challenging to deal with. I can tell you this... I'd feel the same as the stepfather of the victim if I was wearing his shoes.

Every person who commits a violent crime over the age of 15 should be charged as an adult and receive adult sentence's ... and every offender over the age of 15 who commits a violent crime should not have their identity protected.  I knew right from wrong when I was 15, young offenders no longer get my sympathy ... especially violent thugs ...

Vancouver might have a drug problem.

Ontario has a leadership problem:



F**king ridiculous. And what's he going to do after the taxes collected from beer are not there? How does the infrastructure get paid for? Which social programs experience cuts so Goofball gets to be the King of Kensington?

Meltdown99 said:

The government has too much has a spending problem, not a tax problem...if overtaxing citizens solved all these problems then Canada should run like a well oiled machine ...

Yes Ontario had a leadership, the voters took care of the most corrupt government Ontario has ever had.  You think the NDP in Ontario has good leadership?  She was going to make Ontario a sanctuary province ... we are bordered on many sides by the US ... once Americans knew our hospitals will not ask for health cards, where do you think the Americans will go?  

You still have a leadership problem.

Saudi Arabia cancels educational exchange programs after spat with Canada

https://globalnews.ca/news/4372880/saudi-arabia-educational-exchange-canada/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalNational

That's 16000 more spaces available at Canadian schools ...