Canadian Politics Redux

PJ_Soul

fife said:

PJ_Soul said:

Meltdown99 said:

B.C. paramedics respond to 130 suspected overdose calls Friday, the highest in one day

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/paramedics-respond-to-130-suspected-overdose-calls-friday-the-highest-in-one-day?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1532815731

WTF ...

And none died, which is a huge improvement. This time last year, before a bunch of measures were brought in, like make shift OD centres, training in the community, etc, this many ODs in one might would have probably resulted in 20 OD deaths. So we're moving in the right direction. The BC Liberals SUCKED when it came to this issue, and the BC NDP are doing a much better job now, and it's showing.

I think we are going to see this continue, for me this is a reason for safe injection sites.  the more we push substance users into the shadows the worst this will get. 

I just hope the new PC government in Ontario doesn't kill the SIS here.

on another point, while I know I may be a minority i am still an advocate for legalization of all drugs.  I believe this could lead to more safer and cleaner drugs in our country

I'm also an advocate for that. Prohibition simply does not work when it comes to drugs or alcohol. Ever. Wars on drugs are a complete waste of time and energy and money.

Meltdown99

If you use hard narcotics that are known to cause overdose...then that is on the user.  I blame politicians for a lot of things.  Other than the opiod crisis and marijuana being illegal, they are not responsible for these users...

PJ_Soul

Meltdown99 said:

If you use hard narcotics that are known to cause overdose...then that is on the user.  I blame politicians for a lot of things.  Other than the opiod crisis and marijuana being illegal, they are not responsible for these users...

That simply doesn't work at all in a country that has a universal healthcare system.... nor for anyone with a sliver of empathy plus an understanding of how addiction works.... In country that treats it citizens very inhumanely, yeah, sure, great theory. 

Meltdown99

OPSEU President outraged over potential Ontario privatization of cannabis sales

https://www.thegrowthop.com/cannabis-news/cannabis-legalization/opseu-president-warren-smokey-thomas-outraged-over-potential-ontario-privitazation-of-cannabis-sales?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1532966231

The only person smoking anything is this clown who just saw a bunch of overpaid bloated government jobs go up smoke.  Hopefully the LCBO is next to be sold off...

PJ_Soul

Wtf? So now legal private business is somehow organized crime in that guy's mind??? That makes zero sense. What an idiot.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. And from everything I've read, he did not go about "convincing" people of anything - I have only read that he has always put himself at the mercy of those dealing with him, whatever may come. He has never acted like he "deserves" to be free from what I've seen. He simply has done the best he could and went along with his lawyers' advice. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   

The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

oftenreading

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. And from everything I've read, he did not go about "convincing" people of anything - I have only read that he has always put himself at the mercy of those dealing with him, whatever may come. He has never acted like he "deserves" to be free from what I've seen. He simply has done the best he could and went along with his lawyers' advice. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

He is not unsupervised. He is not under a RB order but he is not unsupervised. And you are correct; he was very engaged in his treatment  throughout the whole RB process and had a very good response, which markedly decreased his risk and allowed him to regain a measure of good health, though of course forever affected by the acts he has committed. 

fife

Meltdown99 said:

If you use hard narcotics that are known to cause overdose...then that is on the user.  I blame politicians for a lot of things.  Other than the opiod crisis and marijuana being illegal, they are not responsible for these users...

I find it interesting how you separate people who use hard narcotics and people who use opioids.  many of the people who I know who use both tend to use for pain relieve.   the major issue now is how even things like pot are being report to have been laced with Fentanyl.(to be fair, i have not seen this actually occurring"   life time users that I know who are know their limits are overdosing cause fentanyl is in their heroin. 

PJ_Soul

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. And from everything I've read, he did not go about "convincing" people of anything - I have only read that he has always put himself at the mercy of those dealing with him, whatever may come. He has never acted like he "deserves" to be free from what I've seen. He simply has done the best he could and went along with his lawyers' advice. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

He is not unsupervised. He is not under a RB order but he is not unsupervised. And you are correct; he was very engaged in his treatment  throughout the whole RB process and had a very good response, which markedly decreased his risk and allowed him to regain a measure of good health, though of course forever affected by the acts he has committed. 

From what I've read there are no restrictions or legal obligations whatsoever when it comes to Li's independent living.... I did try to find something indicating that his medication is somehow supervised, and I've been unable to find that. If you have found something that suggests that's happening it would be great if you could post it.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. And from everything I've read, he did not go about "convincing" people of anything - I have only read that he has always put himself at the mercy of those dealing with him, whatever may come. He has never acted like he "deserves" to be free from what I've seen. He simply has done the best he could and went along with his lawyers' advice. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

He is not unsupervised. He is not under a RB order but he is not unsupervised. And you are correct; he was very engaged in his treatment  throughout the whole RB process and had a very good response, which markedly decreased his risk and allowed him to regain a measure of good health, though of course forever affected by the acts he has committed. 

From what I've read there are no restrictions or legal obligations whatsoever when it comes to Li's independent living.... I did try to find something indicating that his medication is somehow supervised, and I've been unable to find that. If you have found something that suggests that's happening it would be great if you could post it.

I'd like to see that as well.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   

The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  

PJ_Soul

fife said:

Meltdown99 said:

If you use hard narcotics that are known to cause overdose...then that is on the user.  I blame politicians for a lot of things.  Other than the opiod crisis and marijuana being illegal, they are not responsible for these users...

I find it interesting how you separate people who use hard narcotics and people who use opioids.  many of the people who I know who use both tend to use for pain relieve.   the major issue now is how even things like pot are being report to have been laced with Fentanyl.(to be fair, i have not seen this actually occurring"   life time users that I know who are know their limits are overdosing cause fentanyl is in their heroin. 

And let's not forget about all the teens and college aged kids who are just recreational users at parties. Some straight A student decides to take some E one night and ODs.... then they should be shit out of luck, no help for them! Says Meltdown, anyway. Same with ALL the people who just recreationally use and die. Only about 10% - 20% of hard drug users are addicts FYI.
FYI, I recently lost an old friend to fentanyl. I hadn't seen him in some years since he moved from metro Vancouver, but was friends with him for many years (we met at university around 1997 or so), and he was an extremely upstanding citizen. He was, in fact, a Vice-President at Thompson Rivers University. I'm sure some in Canada saw the news, just last fall - it hit the national news a bit because of his professional position and because of his unbelievable record of community service. He was no addict. He went to Victoria on a business trip and decided to party a bit after the work was done. He had some drinks and did a bit of coke, as many upstanding citizens will do from time to time. He was found in his hotel room unresponsive, and died while in a coma some days later - confirmed accidental fentanyl OD. He had 2 very young children and a wife. It's absolutely tragic, and I was so shocked and saddened when I saw that this is how it ended for my hilarious friend.

fife

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   

The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  

mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.

 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

fife said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   

The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  

mental health doesn't always make sense.  I have known clients of mine who have cuts themselves badly, i actually had a client of mine cut off his own penis.  depending on the type of mental health many people who walk around might seem completely "normal" can do very bad things not knowing that they did it.  that same client who cut off his penis, went to the hospital and began getting medicated and now has a full time job and is doing very well.

 

I understand this.

My whole point is that we must balance public safety with our concern for the individual. People who self harm pose no risk to anyone other than themselves. If someone is capable of tearing apart a human being when suffering from a break... then we should proceed very carefully to say the least.

I don't believe we have proceeded with caution in this case. 

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yup, severe psychosis exists, it can be the cause of extreme violence, no fault can be laid on the mentally ill person whose actions were completely beyond his or her control, and there are drugs to control it. The main issue is ensuring that someone with such psychosis keeps taking the drugs.... This isn't that hard to do - the authorities just need to do their jobs properly and design the system to work.

He's completely unsupervised and left to his resources if I have read the conditions of his release properly. The authorities are no longer involved.

Yeah, exactly. That's what I was talking about when I brought up designing a system that works - sorry if I wasn't clear. I think anyone with such mental health issues and a violent conviction should have their medications monitored for life. I have nothing against them being treated and released otherwise.
That said, Vince Li may never do anything wrong every again. Let's hope so.

For so many reasons let's hope so.

And lost in this discussion- again- is the fact that there was a victim brutally murdered and a family that has to live with this fact.

I've come a long way with regards to how I view Li, but I am far from thinking he is the type of individual fit to live among everyone else unsupervised. Given what transpired that evening, it is not a stretch to suggest he should remain supervised in a hospital setting for a long time. We went 'all in' on his rehabilitation very quickly. He didn't have to spend too long at all convincing the powers that be that he was a cured man. 

I never feel like the victim is lost in the discussion ever. The importance of the victims are always implied IMO.
I also feel genuine sorrow for Vince Li though. I can no better imagine what pain he has to live with, knowing what he did, than I can with the victim's family. I just wish someone would make sure his illness doesn't lead to him going off his meds, as such illnesses so often do.

I'd be with you on feeling something towards Li if he wasn't so savage and brutal in his attack. It's one thing to hear some voices telling you to kill some random guy sitting beside you on a bus... it's another to mutilate and eat the random guy after you do it. What was telling him to do that?

To my way of thinking... this was an unparalleled gore frenzy. People with schizophrenia can do some brutal things, but this was beyond explainable. Decapitation. Eyeballs in the pockets. Waving a severed head at people. Eating parts.

The horrific capacity of this man in the throes of an episode is simply too extreme.   

The same voice that told him to kill him at all told him to do that of course. I frankly have no idea how or why you think that brutality diminishes the mental illness argument. To me, it seems to support it further. Sorry, I just don't understand your logic here at all. The brutality of it is "too extreme" for what? I would think it was too extreme for it to not have absolutely everything to do with his terrible illness/psychosis.

My logic is that it's one thing to kill a man because you hear voices telling you to do so... it's quite another to do that and savagely mutilate the corpse in as grotesque a fashion as possible.

We hear of mentally ill people committing acts of violence from time to time. This event was completely off the charts. You might not like what I'm about to say, but the nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean belies the excuse of a psychotic break to explain everything in a tidy way.

If you remember, people were tripping over themselves to have Li released less than two years following the event.  

Yeah, this still makes zero sense to me. The nature of the crime and the sheer depravity on the part of Li after he had already murdered McLean is further proof of his psychosis. I neither like nor dislike you saying that... It just doesn't seem logical to me at all.