North Korea
Comments
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No, I don't. I criticize the Bush admin as much as anyone, but those words didn't drive NK's behavior, the starvation of their own people, etc This has been the ongoing story for three generations of leaders.Halifax2TheMax said:
When did Bush declare them the third axis of evil with Iran and Iraq? Anyone think the invasion of Iraq in 2003 contributed to the cheating or pursuit?jeffbr said:I'm sure this time they really, really, really, really, really, really, really mean it.All the Times North Korea Promised to Denuclearize
Some North Korea observers did strike hopeful notes; both McKeon and Baker think the summit was an important first step, however symbolic. And it was certainly an improvement over the overt nuclear threats of a few months ago. But this script has been written before, and always with the same ending. See for yourself (and for a more thorough dissection, check out the Arms Control Association’s comprehensive timeline):
What: Treaty on the Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons
When: December 12, 1985
What happened? North Korea signs onto this landmark treaty—190 countries are currently members—but makes its membership contingent on the US withdrawing nuclear weapons from South Korea, which doesn’t happen for several years, buying North Korea time to build its nuclear capabilities.What: Joint Declaration of the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula
When: January 20, 1992
What happened? North and South Korea sign an agreement that “the South and the North shall not test, manufacture, produce, receive, possess, store, deploy or use nuclear weapons.” In February of 1993, suspicion that North Korea is violating its commitments creates tension over inspections, leading to further delays.What: Agreed Framework
When: October 21, 1994
What happened? North Korea promises to stop plutonium production in exchange for much-needed supplies. This mostly holds up until 2002, when the US discovers that North Korea has secretly been enriching uranium for nuclear weapons. By the end of that year, Kim Jong Il kicks out all international inspectors. On January 10, 2003, North Korea officially withdraws from the 1985 nonproliferation treaty.What: Six-Party Talks
When: September 19, 2005
What happened? After several rounds of intense talks with South Korea, China, Japan, the US, and Russia, North Korea pledges to abandon “all nuclear weapons and existing nuclear programs.” The US and North Korea can’t agree on verification details, though, leading to increased hostilities.What: Six-Party Talks (Again)
When: October 3, 2007
What happened? In a joint statement, North Korea agrees to declare all of its nuclear programs, shut down those affiliated with its weapons program, and not to transfer “nuclear materials, technology, or know-how.” Once again, stakeholders can’t agree on a verification process.What: US Agreement
When: February 29, 2012
What happened? North Korea agrees to suspend nuclear tests and uranium enrichment, and said it will allow inspectors, in exchange for food aid. Two weeks later, North Korea announces plans to launch a satellite, which immediately unwinds the deal.
Too many posts to read, but have you guys debated the "security guarantee" that Trump throws around? In normal diplo-speak, that means you are literally protecting the head of state. Does that mean that if the NK people rose up to overthrow the regime, we would interfere on Un's behalf? Insane.0 -
That is an excellent question. Now that the US is lifting the sanctions for no reason other than Un's word, his people just might manage to get their hands on a enough blackmarket food that slips out of the the ruling class's hands to have the energy to revolt ... And then Trump can send in the troops and kill them for threatening his new best friend's dictatorship and his own chance for a Trump Tower NK.mrussel1 said:
No, I don't. I criticize the Bush admin as much as anyone, but those words didn't drive NK's behavior, the starvation of their own people, etc This has been the ongoing story for three generations of leaders.Halifax2TheMax said:
When did Bush declare them the third axis of evil with Iran and Iraq? Anyone think the invasion of Iraq in 2003 contributed to the cheating or pursuit?jeffbr said:I'm sure this time they really, really, really, really, really, really, really mean it.All the Times North Korea Promised to Denuclearize
Some North Korea observers did strike hopeful notes; both McKeon and Baker think the summit was an important first step, however symbolic. And it was certainly an improvement over the overt nuclear threats of a few months ago. But this script has been written before, and always with the same ending. See for yourself (and for a more thorough dissection, check out the Arms Control Association’s comprehensive timeline):
What: Treaty on the Nonproliferation of Nuclear Weapons
When: December 12, 1985
What happened? North Korea signs onto this landmark treaty—190 countries are currently members—but makes its membership contingent on the US withdrawing nuclear weapons from South Korea, which doesn’t happen for several years, buying North Korea time to build its nuclear capabilities.What: Joint Declaration of the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula
When: January 20, 1992
What happened? North and South Korea sign an agreement that “the South and the North shall not test, manufacture, produce, receive, possess, store, deploy or use nuclear weapons.” In February of 1993, suspicion that North Korea is violating its commitments creates tension over inspections, leading to further delays.What: Agreed Framework
When: October 21, 1994
What happened? North Korea promises to stop plutonium production in exchange for much-needed supplies. This mostly holds up until 2002, when the US discovers that North Korea has secretly been enriching uranium for nuclear weapons. By the end of that year, Kim Jong Il kicks out all international inspectors. On January 10, 2003, North Korea officially withdraws from the 1985 nonproliferation treaty.What: Six-Party Talks
When: September 19, 2005
What happened? After several rounds of intense talks with South Korea, China, Japan, the US, and Russia, North Korea pledges to abandon “all nuclear weapons and existing nuclear programs.” The US and North Korea can’t agree on verification details, though, leading to increased hostilities.What: Six-Party Talks (Again)
When: October 3, 2007
What happened? In a joint statement, North Korea agrees to declare all of its nuclear programs, shut down those affiliated with its weapons program, and not to transfer “nuclear materials, technology, or know-how.” Once again, stakeholders can’t agree on a verification process.What: US Agreement
When: February 29, 2012
What happened? North Korea agrees to suspend nuclear tests and uranium enrichment, and said it will allow inspectors, in exchange for food aid. Two weeks later, North Korea announces plans to launch a satellite, which immediately unwinds the deal.
Too many posts to read, but have you guys debated the "security guarantee" that Trump throws around? In normal diplo-speak, that means you are literally protecting the head of state. Does that mean that if the NK people rose up to overthrow the regime, we would interfere on Un's behalf? Insane.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
Other points that need to be answered by people like @unsung and @BS44325
Trump has ripped up the JCPOA because he said it was a terrible deal. This terrible deal was controlling a regime that didn't actually have any weapons. So the bar is now:
1. a deal with NK that both de-nuclearizes the peninsula and has stronger oversight controls than the JCPOA
2. It must be ratified by the Senate. No sane person will sign a deal that's not ratified because it could be void by 2020 (or sooner, based on Trump's whims).
Does anyone actually think he can clear this bar?0 -
Everyone does realize that the very honorable Un still has nuclear warheads in hardened bunkers and that his uranium enrichment facilities are still operating, right? Or were you distracted by the flags, pomp and circumstances? Sleep tight indeed.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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It’s too late !Kat said:Rachel Maddow laid it out pretty well last night when she showed the border that North Korea shares with Russia on the north. Russia also wants the military exercises to end in that region.
putin's boy made it so.
Can someone/anyone in the government get the russians out of my government before putin moves into the White House?jesus greets me looks just like me ....0 -
Bibi, say it isn’t so! And I was sleeping so well at night.
North Korea summit: Israeli government report questions Trump's optimism - Axios https://apple.news/AHSmiCnsVTIO1TwoPPkVsEQ
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Well that is definitely something positive.PJPOWER said:I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
Because their parents on the campaign trail asked Team Trump Treason to do something?mcgruff10 said:
Well that is definitely something positive.PJPOWER said:09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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So tell me, how is this bad?Halifax2TheMax said:hippiemom = goodness0 -
cincybearcat said:
So tell me, how is this bad?Halifax2TheMax said:
The repatriation isn't bad, but it seems unlikely that parents actually asked Trump to do this on the campaign trail, as he claims. Who knows? Almost everything out of his mouth is a lie, so it's hard to tell.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
Oh, ok. I misunderstood.oftenreading said:cincybearcat said:
So tell me, how is this bad?Halifax2TheMax said:
The repatriation isn't bad, but it seems unlikely that parents actually asked Trump to do this on the campaign trail, as he claims. Who knows? Almost everything out of his mouth is a lie, so it's hard to tell.hippiemom = goodness0 -
Here’s the long form explanation. Essentially, Trump has claimed that “thousands” of parents asked him to facilitate repatriation of their children’s remains. Said parents would have to be, at a minimum, over 100 years old.cincybearcat said:
Oh, ok. I misunderstood.oftenreading said:cincybearcat said:
So tell me, how is this bad?Halifax2TheMax said:
The repatriation isn't bad, but it seems unlikely that parents actually asked Trump to do this on the campaign trail, as he claims. Who knows? Almost everything out of his mouth is a lie, so it's hard to tell.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/politics/wp/2018/06/14/its-not-very-likely-that-parents-of-korean-war-veterans-asked-trump-to-repatriate-their-children/
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
Was that taken out of context or did he really say that?Halifax2TheMax said:
Besides that, it is great that remains are coming home.I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
No way it was true. It is very disturbing that the POTUS just makes shit up like that.oftenreading said:cincybearcat said:
So tell me, how is this bad?Halifax2TheMax said:
The repatriation isn't bad, but it seems unlikely that parents actually asked Trump to do this on the campaign trail, as he claims. Who knows? Almost everything out of his mouth is a lie, so it's hard to tell.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
Did I say it was a bad thing? No, I didn’t. Team Trump Treason can’t just give an honest explanation of how it came to pass. So, when he says, “there was no collusion,” or “I don’t know any Russians,” or “I have nothing to hide,” you can bet the ranch that there was collusion, Team Trump Treason knows plenty of Russians and he’s got a lot to hide.oftenreading said:
Here’s the long form explanation. Essentially, Trump has claimed that “thousands” of parents asked him to facilitate repatriation of their children’s remains. Said parents would have to be, at a minimum, over 100 years old.cincybearcat said:
Oh, ok. I misunderstood.oftenreading said:cincybearcat said:
So tell me, how is this bad?Halifax2TheMax said:
The repatriation isn't bad, but it seems unlikely that parents actually asked Trump to do this on the campaign trail, as he claims. Who knows? Almost everything out of his mouth is a lie, so it's hard to tell.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/politics/wp/2018/06/14/its-not-very-likely-that-parents-of-korean-war-veterans-asked-trump-to-repatriate-their-children/
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He really said it.mcgruff10 said:
Was that taken out of context or did he really say that?Halifax2TheMax said:
Besides that, it is great that remains are coming home.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0 -
If you need more evidence that Team Trump Treason is a lying sack of shit.
Trump told 4 lies about the inspector general report in one short Fox News hit - Vox https://apple.news/ANpGuBCFORrOE7YQLNP7Ffg
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What an idiot.oftenreading said:
He really said it.mcgruff10 said:
Was that taken out of context or did he really say that?Halifax2TheMax said:
Besides that, it is great that remains are coming home.I'll ride the wave where it takes me......0 -
mcgruff10 said:
Was that taken out of context or did he really say that?Halifax2TheMax said:
Besides that, it is great that remains are coming home.
I linked the clip in a tweet a page or so ago. To hear it... you have to look at the soft blue suit orange man flap his lips and speak which is pretty nauseating... but it's worth it to get to the point where he flat out lies.
He hasn't learned (or he simply doesn't care) that he can't lie without getting caught doing so. The funny thing is he's doing this as a president. Imagine how many lies he told as a slick, con man before his presidency (let alone the golf course where obviously- given his pathetic state of physicality- he couldn't shoot 95 from the whites without 2 or 3 mulligans at critical points of his round).
There's been a few defences of this man in recent days, but let's call a spade a spade- he's pathological. There can be no denying this."My brain's a good brain!"0
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