Syria
Comments
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this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...0 -
polaris_x said:
uhhh ... that is obvious that they disagree with me ... my point is simply that in order to try and reach consensus on a subject there has to be back and forth about the issues at hand ... calling me a conspiracy theorist or a sucker for russian propaganda does not address the issues ... i've posted quite a few pieces showing that the current narrative in Syria may not be accurate but no one really is addressing those ... they just call my sources shit ...oftenreading said:
The fact that people disagree with you is not proof that they haven’t “digested” the information that you post. It just means that they disagree with you.polaris_x said:
soo .. no sign of weapons as of November 2017 is not good enough for you?? ... again - you have no proof that Assad dropped chemical weapons ... even general mattis admitted the US gov't has no proof but yet you do!?? ...Halifax2TheMax said:
No chemical weapons in Bazrah as of six months ago. And no, it’s not the only thing I took away from the 4 page report. Another thing I took away from it is your reliance upon a report that does not conclusively prove what you continuously state. Chemical weapons are not primarily stored in large quantities and are typically armed just prior to delivery to their target. Chlorine gas is the exception, hence why barrel bombs can be deployed. But I suppose you’ll argue that Assad’s forces have never dropped them. Like any good 3D, the ability to cherry pick one small kernel of “truth” and argue it’s a thread that proves your point, is a great one. See Pizza, Comet, Podesta, Email. You’re being suckered and have lost all objectivity yet only you know the truth.polaris_x said:
seriously!??? ... you read the entire 3 page document and that's what you got?Halifax2TheMax said:
The report does not confirm what you state. In fact, the report states that the Syrian authorities weren’t completely forthcoming with answers to questions posed. See paragraph 10. Further, the report states that further inspections are required to confirm that the 25 of 27 sites remain non functional, inclusive of previously known underground facilities. Are there unknown underground facilities? Do the Russians not have chemical weapons capabilities? No wonder 3D wants you to work with him.polaris_x said:
assuming you are referring to the inspection? ... lots of sources that the barzah research facility was bombed ...Halifax2TheMax said:
source?polaris_x said:So .. we now know this ..
The research facility that was bombed was a cancer research facility ... for those who don't know ... cancer related medicines are part of the sanctions imposed on Syria ... we also know that the OPCW inspected the facility for the 2nd time in November 2017 and said there was no suspicious activity ...
here is the OPCW report on Syria ... search on barzah to find the specific statement from the OPCW
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/EC/88/en/ec88dg01_e_.pdf
first of all - it most definitely stated what I said ... NO chemical weapons in Bazrah ... sorry to everyone it does not copy and paste well ... if you read section 11 - it clearly states there are no chemical weapons in Bazrah ...
the fact that the Syrian delegation may not have answered fully all questions is subjective on how you interpret it ... also the report states that they verified that 25 of the 27 facilities were in fact destroyed ... the conclusion clearly states it will continue to monitor the 2 remaining and underground sites ... well, they don't need to monitor 1 of the 2 because it's been blown up ...
Sattilite imagery of before and after shows at least two of the complexes as being in agricultural areas and not near dense populations. The US and their allies have weapons systems to destroy chemical weapons with minimized risks to nearby populations. Do I think any of this is right or moral? No. Does that make Assad and Putin nice guys without an agenda? Absolutely not. I suppose you believe the chechens leveled that apartment building in Moscow a decade or so ago? Right?
here is Bazrah's proximity to population ...
BTW - I don't know what derogatory term 3D is but like I said to the other guy ... it doesn't phase me ... my motivation here is strictly in the interests of the Syrian People ... you've managed over the span of several days not to ingest an iota of information or evidence I've posted ... that's actually pretty amazing to be quite honest ... so, props to you for that ...
I disagree with you and your cheerleading for Assad The Peacemaker and Putin The Savior.... and your sources are shit... your hero is a documented blogger for RT.... you realize she gets paid to do that right?you bash "western media" and suck down Russian propaganda like its the gospel...
its amazing really
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I don't think anyone in this thread is making excuses for war, nor are we wanting war. It's not this simple decision all the time though where we just ignore what is happening anywhere else that isn't the USA. I also am not sure what we're accomplishing with the strikes in Syria. It seems we have gone half-assed far too many times because there isn't a clear plan or objective. Randomly striking what are believed to be chemical sites after broadcasting action days earlier is just stupid. When has military action against a country or group ever resulted in positive (for lack of better words) change when the people and government of that country have not directly been involved or a part of making the change the external military is trying to enact? There is obviously a problem, but the US has unfortunately been a part of that problem for years. The bombing and strategic missile strikes aren't going to fix Syria's problems, but I also don't think it is completely clear that their impact is negative. It seems like a zero sum outcome.
I know I don't have the extensive knowledge or understanding of the issues in Syria like some on here do, but I have not been convinced by the claims that Assad is a good guy in all of this. I have not seen any support for the claims of his humanitarianism from any credible journalists. If even some of what is being reported by the underground journalists and supposed freelancers was accurate, there would be a lot more support and evidence of their claims among reputable news sources. I think back to the Iraq war and the WMD claims and several journalists were challenging that story. What was later found is that there were no WMD's but piles and piles of chemical weapons all over Iraq that looked like they had been buried back during the first Gulf War. Again, the US had a chance to at least clear up that mess, but ultimately didn't finish the job and possibly allowed some of the chemical weapons to fall in to the hands of ISIS, which is what brings me back to my initial point. What the hell are doing with Syria? We pretend not to get involved, but then decide to strike when it suits our interests to be on moral high ground as a humanitarian effort without the humanitarianism.
Anyway, I found the below article an interesting take after last year's strikes.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/north-africa-west-asia/shilpa-jindia/syria-US-war-left-revolution
Post edited by tbergs onIt's a hopeless situation...0 -
Oh fucks sake. Thanks for those nice bloody pictures to start my day off (real or otherwise). I'm done.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
So now your peacemakers...pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...Give Peas A Chance…0 -
No. That wasn't what he said. You're painting a black and white picture that didn't exist.Meltdown99 said:
So now your peacemakers...pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...It's a hopeless situation...0 -
Exactly right. If the US jumps into a situation like this, it’s “why are they sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong?” If the US sits back and watches, it’s “why isn’t the US doing something to help the situation?” Typical case of damned if you do and damned if you don’t.pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...0 -
Assad the Innocent showing his transparency.
Chemical Weapons Experts Blocked From Site of Syria Attack, Officials Say - The New York Times https://apple.news/ATnPy0pV9RbWsppHReBufeA
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pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...
the sad hard truth is that if America went isolationist, stopped being the world police, closed all foreign bases, and brought all of the equipment and people home.... this world would have conflict and problems that make todays world look like a wonderlandthat's coming from a pretty staunch progressive
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the Syria issue demonstrates this perfectly. I can't believe people are condemning the US for this. They used chemical weapons on their own people (again). How can we stand by and do nothing? I don't have the answers on what needs to be done and I dislike Trump as much as anyone, but we cannot let that happen in today's world. A response was needed.bbiggs said:
Exactly right. If the US jumps into a situation like this, it’s “why are they sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong?” If the US sits back and watches, it’s “why isn’t the US doing something to help the situation?” Typical case of damned if you do and damned if you don’t.pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...0 -
I don't equate ceasing to be world police with being isolated. There's more to interacting with other parts of the world than enforcement, war, politics, etc. There's also all the richness of culture- music, art, sports, literature, and so forth.my2hands said:pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...
the sad hard truth is that if America went isolationist, stopped being the world police, closed all foreign bases, and brought all of the equipment and people home.... this world would have conflict and problems that make todays world look like a wonderlandthat's coming from a pretty staunch progressive
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Along with diplomacy.brianlux said:
I don't equate ceasing to be world police with being isolated. There's more to interacting with other parts of the world than enforcement, war, politics, etc. There's also all the richness of culture- music, art, sports, literature, and so forth.my2hands said:pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...
the sad hard truth is that if America went isolationist, stopped being the world police, closed all foreign bases, and brought all of the equipment and people home.... this world would have conflict and problems that make todays world look like a wonderlandthat's coming from a pretty staunch progressive
09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©0 -
here you go...brianlux said:Oh fucks sake. Thanks for those nice bloody pictures to start my day off (real or otherwise). I'm done.
0 -
3D d’ing on the Comey interview and Team Trump Treason’s almost immediate rescinding of Nikkki Styxxx’s Russian sanctions. Dots got you down? Puppy abounds!09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
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IRYME said:What should be done with a regime that gasses people?
I certainly don't like everything about Trump. But it seems like the hatred for Trump is greater than the hatred for some of these terrible & brutal regimes.
I can certainly understand why people don't like Trump, I don't understand the level of hatred.
Do we just let the gassing continue? Turn a blind eye? Let it go unchecked what?
Trump doesn't strike me as a trigger happy guy. Trump has stated many times, that we won't be nation building anymore like Bush tried in Iraq that didn't work out to well.
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to discuss.
I disagreed with Obama on a lot of things, not everything, & I never hated the guy.
just find it interesting that they could bomb the living shit out of those people, day in and day out, causing an ongoing humanitarian crisis for a really long time now, and the US, Britain, and France weren't doing anything until chemical weapons are used, as though all the other weapons used before are child's play. I don't think it could be any more obvious that they were just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for another chemical attack, so that they had an excuse to go in there that the naive public would accept. I just can't believe there are still people who think this kind of military strike has anything to do with helping people or doing the right thing or anything like that.
Post edited by PJ_Soul onWith all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
LANDLORD: Still no eviction notice?Halifax2TheMax said:3D d’ing on the Comey interview and Team Trump Treason’s almost immediate rescinding of Nikkki Styxxx’s Russian sanctions. Dots got you down? Puppy abounds!
0 -
I understand all of that... America utilizes quite a bit of "soft power" internationally, or at least used to...brianlux said:
I don't equate ceasing to be world police with being isolated. There's more to interacting with other parts of the world than enforcement, war, politics, etc. There's also all the richness of culture- music, art, sports, literature, and so forth.my2hands said:pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?brianlux said:
Sorry McG but I only agree with maybe 8% of this.mcgruff10 said:IMO:
World war 2: justified
Korea: justified
Cuban Missile Crisis: justified
Vietnam: not justified
Cambodia/Laos: I see why they did it so on the fence
Grenada: justified
Nicaragua: justified
Kuwait/Iraq 91: justified
Rwanda: justified but went in too late
Serbia/Bosnia: justified
Afghanistan: justified
Iraq: not justified
ISIS: justified based on a not justified war
Syria: too soon to tell
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...
the sad hard truth is that if America went isolationist, stopped being the world police, closed all foreign bases, and brought all of the equipment and people home.... this world would have conflict and problems that make todays world look like a wonderlandthat's coming from a pretty staunch progressive
People think the world was peaceful before America became a superpower?
The truth is the world has been the most peaceful in modern history since the end of WW2 with America leading and helping secure and maintain global cooperation and progress like has never been seen... these are facts that are real and tangible... what scares me are the people like Trump and Brexit voters who dont understand that and are willing to blow up that longstanding order...
what do you think would happen if America pulled all military out of Asia? Or maybe withdraw from NATO and the European continent? It wouldn't be pretty... if Canada bordered Russia the canadians on here would likely sign a much different tune when it comes to Team America: World Police
Now of course America has made many mistakes along the way that I dont excuse... some horrific... some inexcusable... but I think progressives like myself have far too a simplistic view of Americas role in global geopolitics, especially military presence and capability0 -
Most evictions wind their way through housing court and are not instantaneous proceedings. Sometimes, you have to involve the cops and take them out kicking and screaming, after a bright orange notice has been tacked to the front door and remained visible and in place for 30 days. All in good time comrade, all in good time.JC29856 said:
LANDLORD: Still no eviction notice?Halifax2TheMax said:3D d’ing on the Comey interview and Team Trump Treason’s almost immediate rescinding of Nikkki Styxxx’s Russian sanctions. Dots got you down? Puppy abounds!
09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR; 05/03/2025, New Orleans, LA;
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I'm a post WWII boomer born in 1951. Every single day of my life has been lived under the threat of nuclear annihilation and I cannot think of many times during my lifetime that war has not raged somewhere on this planet. If, indeed, it is a fact that this my entire lifetime has been the most peaceful in modern history... well, what can I say? That's a sad and horrific thought.my2hands said:
I understand all of that... America utilizes quite a bit of "soft power" internationally, or at least used to...brianlux said:
I don't equate ceasing to be world police with being isolated. There's more to interacting with other parts of the world than enforcement, war, politics, etc. There's also all the richness of culture- music, art, sports, literature, and so forth.my2hands said:pjhawks said:
this is just an absurd premise. do you really think if the US pulled out of the Middle East there would peace there? And as someone else mentioned if not the US would you prefer Russia or someone else being there instead of US? We have our issues for sure but let's not blame the US for every conflict around the world. Religion is far more to blame.Meltdown99 said:
I agree Brian, maybe if the country with the largest military actually started closing their foreign basis and scaled back military spending a little and lead by example...brianlux said:
The bottom line, Mace, is you can look to history for reasons to continue warring or you can look to the future for ways to make peace. I choose peace.mace1229 said:
Yes, everyone who graduated high school knows the treaty that ended WWI caused WWII. But by the mid-late 30’s there was no stopping it at that point.brianlux said:
No. WWII could have been avoided. Here's an article that explains that:mace1229 said:
Wow, so if Japan didn’t bomb Pearl Harbor, you’d be okay letting Hitler kill every Jew, gypsy and gay? And that’s just to start, he would have moved on to other ethnicities from there, but as long as America never made the list there’d be no reason for us to stop him? Is that what you’re saying?brianlux said:
No McG, sorry, only 7/8. But then, I suck at math so...mcgruff10 said:ee with maybe 8% of this.
say what? so you agreed with me on only two of these?
No, seriously, only WWII only only partially. The others? No, can't say as I agree. We stick our nose where it doesn't belong. Only reason MAAAAYBE for war is if we are attacked and that only happened sort of in Hawaii (never would have if we hadn't armed HI).
https://www.munplanet.com/articles/interesting-questions/could-world-war-ii-have-been-prevented"Woodrow Wilson’s call to create the League of Nations and its epic failure is a great allegory to explain why WWII exploded. Negligence and indifference from the States involved in the international scene were what prompted turmoil in Europe. A harsh Treaty of Versailles that sunk Germany into debt and economic and social crisis was only allowed by a bunch of countries that weren’t looking forward the future of Europe; or even the world. The policy of isolationism taken by the United States at the end of the war, which emphasized on not intervening in European affairs any more, prevented the United States from joining the League on Nations, weakening it considerably and leading it to its dissolution. With a strong punishment, and no way nations could cooperate as a whole (the League of Nations) the battleground was set for a greater conflict.
As Germany sunk in crisis, other countries started recovering from the wounds of war. This gave Germany an image of an underdeveloped country, or even worse, of a criminal receiving its punishment. Being seen as the enemy, and also being helpless, drove Germany to seek a quick turn table. The conditions created by the International community made the Nazi party so appealing to people. Let’s consider how German society felt after being named the responsible for the worst war ever. If someone told them that Germany is great and shouldn’t be treated as a criminal, they would believe him or her immediately. A nationalistic feeling brewed into a chauvinism that not only praised German race but also scorned any other race. This is why Hitler made it to power. If anyone named Hitler the real problem that caused the WWII, still the International Community’s indifference and indolence are the responsibles. Who else created the conditions for Hitler to rise? It isn’t Germany who put those harsh sanctions to itself.
and plenty of countries go into economic collapse without electing one of the most racist and evil people in history. The treaty is only part to blame. And none of that changes the fact that once hitler took power, that war was justified for the allies.
It's obvious from the last 70 years or so that getting involved/creating more war does not bring peace...
the sad hard truth is that if America went isolationist, stopped being the world police, closed all foreign bases, and brought all of the equipment and people home.... this world would have conflict and problems that make todays world look like a wonderlandthat's coming from a pretty staunch progressive
People think the world was peaceful before America became a superpower?
The truth is the world has been the most peaceful in modern history since the end of WW2 with America leading and helping secure and maintain global cooperation and progress like has never been seen... these are facts that are real and tangible... what scares me are the people like Trump and Brexit voters who dont understand that and are willing to blow up that longstanding order...
what do you think would happen if America pulled all military out of Asia? Or maybe withdraw from NATO and the European continent? It wouldn't be pretty... if Canada bordered Russia the canadians on here would likely sign a much different tune when it comes to Team America: World Police
Now of course America has made many mistakes along the way that I dont excuse... some horrific... some inexcusable... but I think progressives like myself have far too a simplistic view of Americas role in global geopolitics, especially military presence and capability
As far as pulling out of Asia and Europe, it's hard to say what would happen but I regardless, I would be in favor of doing so.
Look, I appreciate what you are saying and we generally agree on most subjects and I recognize that my views are off the grid but the way I see it, we are right on the brink. We are so fucking close to blowing our collective selves and many, many other species off the face of the earth my view point now is, what the hell do we have to loose? No more war, no more fighting, no more hate. I'm with Jimi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzZxuLklH-o
"Instead of marching down the street with, ah, what is it? M1's, M16's? all these rifles...[mumbles]... why don't we march down the street with a little gui-tar, things like this, yeahhh..."
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0
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