Do tell, what do you think my bias is? I'm intrigued
American exceptionalism, anti-Russian, by the sound of it. You have fallen for your own R2P honey pot, judging by your world police advocacy in the other thread. At least I own it
American exceptionalism, eh? You must not know me very well lol
That isn't world police advocacy, that's world police reality.
You call Team America 'reality'...this is a perfect example of exceptionalism. It's reality to you, and a minority of americans as it pertains to Syria. Outside of the US....Team America is regarded as the greatest threat to world peace. So ya....duped. Own it.
Just for fun...
What do you think would happen if Team America pulled out of NATO and and closed up shop in Europe. And cut off funding that went to military expenditures in Europe
The current geopolitical framework was setup well before you or I came along... ask an East German about Team America... I was just born here... so I dont own shit, amigo.
So in order to prove you’re not an American exceptionalist, you throw out the hypothetical ‘what would happen to Europe if we left?’ Lol, this is gold. you go first. I’ll start for you:
Russia...
I don’t have to ask an East German about team America. Pew did it for me. Highlights:
America has 2,000 troops in Syria... and bombed empty facilities for about 20 minutes
And yet they are responsible for the situation in Syria and the atrocities committed... all the shit about cracking down on opposition... mass detaining... torture... rapes... killings... civilian attacks... chemical attacks... that's all either fake or America's fault? Meanwhile, Assad and Putin are righteous peacemakers... that is literally your narrative. As well as Polaris... i mean c'mon, give me a fucking break
You're anti-US bias is being used against you and blinding you to the obvious reality of the situation
With all due respect.....can you read mang? Can you click on any links provided to you? I’ve stated numerous times that I don’t support Assad. I also don’t support overthrowing him, nor dividing his country. I’ve provided US documents that clearly lay out motive and premeditation for the US’s role in this entire cluster fuck. Are you seriously going to deny that the US has at the very least been supporting ‘moderate rebels’? And that the ‘extremist rebels’ are a direct result of US actions in the region? If so, you are being willingly dishonest with your 2000 troops and 20 minutes of bombing lies. That doesn’t scratch the surface of US involvement.
Maybe we can both hop in the Delorean and head back to the end of WW2 and renogotiate everybody's post war position and interests... sounds like you may have preferred a Soviet controlled region?
As far as American exceptionalism... it's funny, because you think America is much more capable than I do considering your narrative, we aren't capable of half the things you accuse them of lol... Im also well versed, acknowledge, and completely disgusted by my countries horrific mistakes and unjustified miltary aggressions... but guess what, NOBODY'S hands are clean... NOBODY'S... just in the last 100 years, everyone is stained...
As far as owning it... I'm an american... I pay my taxes... I completely disagree with the level of defense spending and 95% of this bullshit... my taxes pay for those bombs... my tax dollars are still paying for the Iraq war... 500,000 dead... cia black budget... Guantonamo... maintaining 5,000 nuclear weapons on hair trigger status... W & Cheney authorizing torture... warrantless wiretapping... patriot act... you think i'm unaware? You think that doesn't bother me? You have no clue about me, or "owning it", so I suggest you hop off your high fucking horse
If I could change the world, I would. Until then, some things are just a reality my friend. I've come to grips with that. One day you'll join me
How come all the NATO countries freaked out when Trump started squawking about pulling out and how much they pay?
You laugh, but it's a real world question, what do you think would happen? I'm sure Putin The Peacemaker would play nice... like he did with Ukraine...
Im sure if the US folded up tent in Asia and came home China would play real nice in the region... they certainly wouldn't abuse their power and influence... the beacon of human rights running protesters over with tanks would probably stop building artificial islands as military outposts and wouldn't claim by force more territory in the Sea of Japan...
The world would change drastically, and quickly... you can say what you want, but I dont think you or I really wants to live through such global upheaval...
Say what you want, but the planet is more stable, peaceful, educated, healthier, and wealthier than ever before... I'm not giving credit to America for that... but to ignore their role in the global cooperation post WW2 is foolish
Dont call us the next time Somali pirates disrupt shipping lanes lol
anyone read about what ISIS did in Afghanistan!?? ... these are the scumbags Assad is fighting ... it's pathetic that people here are so hell bent on believing a narrative that will only allow their evil to spread ...
i am in a particularly foul mood tonight (despite the leafs winning) reading about fucking islamic extremists and saudi arabia and israel fucking being world class assholes ... and really have lost any tolerance for the people here who refuse to at least consider that they are supporting mass suffering through their ignorance and what can only be described as utter stupidity ...
will check out for a while from here .. . too many people who continue to slop up the lies from countries who's recent history is full of lies, evil and greed ...
anyone read about what ISIS did in Afghanistan!?? ... these are the scumbags Assad is fighting ... it's pathetic that people here are so hell bent on believing a narrative that will only allow their evil to spread ...
i am in a particularly foul mood tonight (despite the leafs winning) reading about fucking islamic extremists and saudi arabia and israel fucking being world class assholes ... and really have lost any tolerance for the people here who refuse to at least consider that they are supporting mass suffering through their ignorance and what can only be described as utter stupidity ...
will check out for a while from here .. . too many people who continue to slop up the lies from countries who's recent history is full of lies, evil and greed ...
#handsoffsyria
So now im "supporting mass suffering" because of my "ignorance and utter stupidity"
America has 2,000 troops in Syria... and bombed empty facilities for about 20 minutes
And yet they are responsible for the situation in Syria and the atrocities committed... all the shit about cracking down on opposition... mass detaining... torture... rapes... killings... civilian attacks... chemical attacks... that's all either fake or America's fault? Meanwhile, Assad and Putin are righteous peacemakers... that is literally your narrative. As well as Polaris... i mean c'mon, give me a fucking break
You're anti-US bias is being used against you and blinding you to the obvious reality of the situation
With all due respect.....can you read mang?
I’ve stated numerous times that I don’t support Assad. I also don’t support overthrowing him, nor dividing his country.
Yes I can read... can you?
If so you would see I never said anything about overthrowing him, or dividing his country. You havent read me support the bombing either. Shit, you havent seen me support America being involved at all, have you?
I have only jumped in to counter the horeshit narrative Polaris likes to swear by that Assad is a righteous peacemaker that is misunderstood and that everything is a completely fabricated lie... for 7 years... all made up... everybody loves Assad and he hasn't done a this nasty things... oh, and Putin is also a righteous peacemaker... meanwhile it seems 3/4 of his sources literally work for RT or are mysterious twitter "journalists"
No matter Americas past or present agenda, that's just ridiculous. You dont see me cheering for any bombs, likely never will
Nah, I’m light. I know my country's role in the world. You don’t have to tell me my hands are dirty. Again, you are being dishonest and now coy with your narrative. You are pretending that full scale military operations are the only way the US/NATO can strong arm a nation. You know darn well that they can bring a country’s government to its knees virtually on a whim, and have done so dozens upon dozens of times. But Syria is what...pure altruism? Youre acknowledging past atrocities, but denying them in the present. It’s a pattern that is easily recognizable from ‘up here’ (literally and figuratively ) How do we get to a point where ‘progressives’ who can acknowledge US/NATO atrocities, who hate their commander in chief, are downplaying said chief’s illegal bombing of a sovereign state? Bizarre. Nationalism is such a drag.
Nah, I’m light. I know my country's role in the world. You don’t have to tell me my hands are dirty. Again, you are being dishonest and now coy with your narrative. You are pretending that full scale military operations are the only way the US/NATO can strong arm a nation. You know darn well that they can bring a country’s government to its knees virtually on a whim, and have done so dozens upon dozens of times. But Syria is what...pure altruism? Youre acknowledging past atrocities, but denying them in the present. It’s a pattern that is easily recognizable from ‘up here’ (literally and figuratively ) How do we get to a point where ‘progressives’ who can acknowledge US/NATO atrocities, who hate their commander in chief, are downplaying said chief’s illegal bombing of a sovereign state? Bizarre. Nationalism is such a drag.
Where did I downplay or justify the bombing? The bombed an empty airfield, literally an empty airfield. Some people played it up like it was WW3... or shock & awe... I dont think anyone died in the last round? Trump announced Mission Accomplished pretty quickly... it was total wag the dog
I know there are claims of wanting regime change... those go way back to the PNAC and NEOCON heyday we all love... I dont ignore that... but to be honest, our actions the last 7 years tell me we may actually want him to remain in control... think about it, 7 years of a civil war for regime change? Only 2000 troops and 2 very limited missile strikes at empty targets? If they wanted him, and they were as all powerful as made up to be, they would have gotten him out by now.
Obama gets a ton of criticism, by a lot of people, for ending the Iraq war and drawing down the US presence... a lot of people, very smart people that I tend to disagree with generally, think THAT is actually what lead to the rise of Islamic State and the regional destabilization... they also criticize him for the lack of military action in the red line incident... I tend to agree with Obama on both fronts, but who knows, maybe the other side has a point. I'm not always right, and to think you're never wrong is obviously a mistake
Shit, maybe even Dick Cheney is right once in a while lol
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,309
anyone read about what ISIS did in Afghanistan!?? ... these are the scumbags Assad is fighting ... it's pathetic that people here are so hell bent on believing a narrative that will only allow their evil to spread ...
i am in a particularly foul mood tonight (despite the leafs winning) reading about fucking islamic extremists and saudi arabia and israel fucking being world class assholes ... and really have lost any tolerance for the people here who refuse to at least consider that they are supporting mass suffering through their ignorance and what can only be described as utter stupidity ...
will check out for a while from here .. . too many people who continue to slop up the lies from countries who's recent history is full of lies, evil and greed ...
#handsoffsyria
polaris, you know I've had respect for a lot of what you've written here over the years I've been here and have learned some good and useful things, but I have to tell you that I for one am more open to hearing what you have to say when you educate us far more so than when you go calling some of us stupid idiots. I know sometimes I'm a goddamn fucking stupid idiot sometimes but, hells bells man, educate us, don't call us fucking idiots.
And goddamn it, if you fuckers don't all stop beating the shit out of each other I'm going to KINDLY request this stinkin' thread I started be LOCKED THE FUCK DOWN.
Thank you. I feel so much better having said that.
Peace, friends.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Nah, I’m light. I know my country's role in the world. You don’t have to tell me my hands are dirty. Again, you are being dishonest and now coy with your narrative. You are pretending that full scale military operations are the only way the US/NATO can strong arm a nation. You know darn well that they can bring a country’s government to its knees virtually on a whim, and have done so dozens upon dozens of times. But Syria is what...pure altruism? Youre acknowledging past atrocities, but denying them in the present. It’s a pattern that is easily recognizable from ‘up here’ (literally and figuratively ) How do we get to a point where ‘progressives’ who can acknowledge US/NATO atrocities, who hate their commander in chief, are downplaying said chief’s illegal bombing of a sovereign state? Bizarre. Nationalism is such a drag.
Where did I downplay or justify the bombing? The bombed an empty airfield, literally an empty airfield. Some people played it up like it was WW3... or shock & awe... I dont think anyone died in the last round? Trump announced Mission Accomplished pretty quickly... it was total wag the dog
I know there are claims of wanting regime change... those go way back to the PNAC and NEOCON heyday we all love... I dont ignore that... but to be honest, our actions the last 7 years tell me we may actually want him to remain in control... think about it, 7 years of a civil war for regime change? Only 2000 troops and 2 very limited missile strikes at empty targets? If they wanted him, and they were as all powerful as made up to be, they would have gotten him out by now.
Obama gets a ton of criticism, by a lot of people, for ending the Iraq war and drawing down the US presence... a lot of people, very smart people that I tend to disagree with generally, think THAT is actually what lead to the rise of Islamic State and the regional destabilization... they also criticize him for the lack of military action in the red line incident... I tend to agree with Obama on both fronts, but who knows, maybe the other side has a point. I'm not always right, and to think you're never wrong is obviously a mistake
Shit, maybe even Dick Cheney is right once in a while lol
You downplay the bombing in the next sentence after asking when you did lol. There are not 'claims' of wanting regime change - there are documented plans. 7 years of civil war for regime change - as H2M said, this is slow burn proxy war stuff. There is zero appetite amongst the American people for war against Syria, even after all this chemical attack propaganda. And as I've mentioned, it might not necessarily end with ousting Assad. It may end with the country being balkanized and Assad left in power over a limited area. I'm sure Obama blinking and giving the Russians time to move in foiled plans for all out regime change. Even if they pull out completely now, they have still accomplished part of the stated goal of weakening or spreading thin two Iranian allies (Hezbollah being the other). Still, I saw a report this morning c/w satellite photos of the US expanding it's bases in Syria; building air strips etc, as they talk about pulling out. So who knows wtf they're up to. Obama's 'withdrawl' did not create ISIS, nor did it destabilize the region...both were already done. Al Qaeda in Iraq (the main foundation of ISIS) has been active since 2003. What I presume it DID do, is allow ISIS to move into Syria more easily....in line with the plans laid out in the cables. The influx of foreign fighters to Syria began after Libya - the same proxy fighters that shared US goals in Libya, moved to Syria, where they also shared the US's goals. Direct ties can be made between these Libyan ISIS fighters and US policy makers - photos of their leaders with John McCain can be found online - he has snuck in and out of Syria more than once to meet with them.
Brian - m2h and I have found common ground on not wanting to bomb Syria, and identified some misunderstandings between us. So there's that. We're all big boys, perfectly capable of bowing out if it gets to be too intense.
Saw this this morning. He's saying the same exact same things all of these indy bloggers have been saying. I wonder if Blumenthal and/or truthdig are legitimate enough sources, or if some here will decide to discredit him, too.... I'll say it first - Blumenthal is an anti-semite!
Saw this this morning. He's saying the same exact same things all of these indy bloggers have been saying. I wonder if Blumenthal and/or truthdig are legitimate enough sources, or if some here will decide to discredit him, too.... I'll say it first - Blumenthal is an anti-semite!
A good response to Blumenthal's piece which challenged the original reporting. It would be best to read all 3 articles so you can have the full understanding. Still just a whole lot of talk with no concrete evidence which side is correct in their assessment on what occurred on April 7.
any update on what the inspectors found in dhouma? next Santa story: putin/russia/assad employed 1000s of hepa air filters throughout dhouma then sprayed lysol and fabreze just before inspections, hence the delay.
America has 2,000 troops in Syria... and bombed empty facilities for about 20 minutes
And yet they are responsible for the situation in Syria and the atrocities committed... all the shit about cracking down on opposition... mass detaining... torture... rapes... killings... civilian attacks... chemical attacks... that's all either fake or America's fault? Meanwhile, Assad and Putin are righteous peacemakers... that is literally your narrative. As well as Polaris... i mean c'mon, give me a fucking break
You're anti-US bias is being used against you and blinding you to the obvious reality of the situation
Excellent posts my2hands. I d also like to ask what would have happened to South Korea if we had pulled out sometime in the past 55 years?
With all due respect to you two, DrownedOut is pretty much the only person in this entire thread who actually offers any tangible facts, sources, or thorough knowledge.... Is he anti-American (i.e. biased against the USA)? Well, I don't know. Maybe. Are you DrownedOut? I think you can probably be trusted to assess that yourself honestly. I have occasionally thought that maybe you are, but have also considered the possibility that you focus on certain American activities because we are all inundated by pro-American information (also biased), and you feel the need to counteract it. If so, I think that's a somewhat reasonable objective.
I am not "anti-American"... and I'm not "pro-American". I feel about as objective as I can about this entire issue, and sincerely have had no desire to even reach the point of "picking sides" in a lot of cases (is that even necessary? I don't think so). And from what I can tell, you guys, my2hands and McGruff, are extremely biased towards America in most of your viewpoints (not just in this thread). I don't even think of this as your fault, really. Pro-American propaganda runs unusually deep and wide in the USA. It is very deliberate in American government, education, and media, and it propagates itself among the masses. The only reason I'm saying this is because it's impossible for anyone to see anything objectively if they are already completely convinced that they already are seeing things objectively, but aren't. And probably the vast majority of Americans are going to be specifically pro-American (i.e. biased) about a lot of things - it's only human - but FYI, from my perspective, you two seem outstandingly so a fair bit of the time. It seems to close you off to certain other ideas/possibilities/realities/facts/perspectives. I have to agree with DrownedOut about you falling victim to 'American exceptionalism'... I mean, more than most.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I never thought I would be accused of being a biased cheerleader for american exceptionalism lol
I call it how I see it... the world is not as black & white as some people like to make it, there is a lot of grey... and to just constantly bash america and portray it as evil is lazy and hypocritical
Honestly, it's not worth explaining me or my positions, feel free to label me how you wish
Sometimes liberals and progressives, like myself, need to realize the world isn't all rainbows and unicorns
Call me when 100,000 US troops are in Syria, then we can talk. Until then, feel free to continue to be Assad and Putin apologists
I never thought I would be accused of being a biased cheerleader for american exceptionalism lol
I call it how I see it... the world is not as black & white as some people like to make it, there is a lot of grey... and to just constantly bash america and portray it as evil is lazy and hypocritical
Honestly, it's not worth explaining me or my positions, feel free to label me how you wish
Sometimes liberals and progressives, like myself, need to realize the world isn't all rainbows and unicorns
Call me when 100,000 US troops are in Syria, then we can talk. Until then, feel free to continue to be Assad and Putin apologists
I never thought I would be accused of being a biased cheerleader for american exceptionalism lol
I call it how I see it... the world is not as black & white as some people like to make it, there is a lot of grey... and to just constantly bash america and portray it as evil is lazy and hypocritical
Honestly, it's not worth explaining me or my positions, feel free to label me how you wish
Sometimes liberals and progressives, like myself, need to realize the world isn't all rainbows and unicorns
Call me when 100,000 US troops are in Syria, then we can talk. Until then, feel free to continue to be Assad and Putin apologists
See m2h, you are completely ignoring what I said earlier about the US not needing boots on the ground to be responsible for this war....
pj_s: I don’t consider myself anti-American. I love the land and a lot of people down there. I consider myself anti-imperialism, and anti-war....which basically by default makes me a huge critic of US/NATO. US/NATO has been systematically encircling Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. Questioning whether id have preferred a soviet controlled world order following ww2 belies the fact that the US NATO has expanded immensely since then. So yes, a lot of my anti-war efforts focus on long term non-partisan US policies that endanger us all. Most instances of Russian ‘aggression’ can be traced back to plans for NATO expansion, which directly threatens Russia’s standing in the world by every metric. Countering the US policy propaganda is def part of my MO...not some deep seeded resentment of the US, nor a belief that Russia is innocent. Russia has been largely reactionary to US policy, and in doing so has been guilty of their own brutality. The record does not show them as the instigators in most instances.
I never thought I would be accused of being a biased cheerleader for american exceptionalism lol
I call it how I see it... the world is not as black & white as some people like to make it, there is a lot of grey... and to just constantly bash america and portray it as evil is lazy and hypocritical
Honestly, it's not worth explaining me or my positions, feel free to label me how you wish
Sometimes liberals and progressives, like myself, need to realize the world isn't all rainbows and unicorns
Call me when 100,000 US troops are in Syria, then we can talk. Until then, feel free to continue to be Assad and Putin apologists
I don't think anyone was being anything close to black and white, or that the world is unicorns and rainbows, so I'm not too sure why you said that. Yes, of course, only bashing America and not spreading the blame around is super biased too... not sure anyone is doing that either.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
So, Russia taking Crimea by force and murdering countless journalists and members of the opposition is Americas fault?
And let me guess, the apartment bombings, a real false flag attack, was caused by them evil Americans as well, right?
Sweet baby jesus, this shit is comical
I dont know how many times i have to point this out, but i'll try again....... JIM, the joint investigative body of OPCW & The UN have clearly stated that they found the Syrian government responsible for multiple chemical attacks. That's a fact. Deny it, put your head in the sand, dont believe it, I dont really give a shit because it doesn't change reality.
Now pardon me, I have John Bolton on line 3, we're figuring out how to justify an invasion of Canada lol
So, Russia taking Crimea by force and murdering countless journalists and members of the opposition is Americas fault?
And let me guess, the apartment bombings, a real false flag attack, was caused by them evil Americans as well, right?
Sweet baby jesus, this shit is comical
I dont know how many times i have to point this out, but i'll try again....... JIM, the joint investigative body of OPCW & The UN have clearly stated that they found the Syrian government responsible for multiple chemical attacks. That's a fact. Deny it, put your head in the sand, dont believe it, I dont really give a shit because it doesn't change reality.
Now pardon me, I have John Bolton on line 3, we're figuring out how to justify an invasion of Canada lol
Who are you talking to?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I never thought I would be accused of being a biased cheerleader for american exceptionalism lol
I call it how I see it... the world is not as black & white as some people like to make it, there is a lot of grey... and to just constantly bash america and portray it as evil is lazy and hypocritical
Honestly, it's not worth explaining me or my positions, feel free to label me how you wish
Sometimes liberals and progressives, like myself, need to realize the world isn't all rainbows and unicorns
Call me when 100,000 US troops are in Syria, then we can talk. Until then, feel free to continue to be Assad and Putin apologists
I don't think anyone was being anything close to black and white, or that the world is unicorns and rainbows, so I'm not too sure why you said that. Yes, of course, only bashing America and not spreading the blame around is super biased too... not sure anyone is doing that either.
This forum is very anti-American and it grows extremely tiresome. Our country is pretty much damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
I never thought I would be accused of being a biased cheerleader for american exceptionalism lol
I call it how I see it... the world is not as black & white as some people like to make it, there is a lot of grey... and to just constantly bash america and portray it as evil is lazy and hypocritical
Honestly, it's not worth explaining me or my positions, feel free to label me how you wish
Sometimes liberals and progressives, like myself, need to realize the world isn't all rainbows and unicorns
Call me when 100,000 US troops are in Syria, then we can talk. Until then, feel free to continue to be Assad and Putin apologists
I don't think anyone was being anything close to black and white, or that the world is unicorns and rainbows, so I'm not too sure why you said that. Yes, of course, only bashing America and not spreading the blame around is super biased too... not sure anyone is doing that either.
This forum is very anti-American and it grows extremely tiresome. Our country is pretty much damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
Well even if that is true (I don't think it is), I feel like at the very least people are quite sincerely going off of real life circumstances to form that sentiment. What would you like people to do? Fake it? Ignore reality? Hell, can you imagine how Russians feel?? I'm pretty sure they think SO many people are anti-Russian, and they seem frustrated with that... That doesn't mean Putin is a good guy and that Russia is a positive beam of light in a dark world. In other words... your frustration with what you call anti-Americanism seems to me another symptom of what Drowned called your sense of American exceptionalism.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Lol, this is gold.
you go first.
I’ll start for you:
Russia...
I don’t have to ask an East German about team America. Pew did it for me. Highlights:
With all due respect.....can you read mang? Can you click on any links provided to you?
I’ve stated numerous times that I don’t support Assad. I also don’t support overthrowing him, nor dividing his country.
I’ve provided US documents that clearly lay out motive and premeditation for the US’s role in this entire cluster fuck. Are you seriously going to deny that the US has at the very least been supporting ‘moderate rebels’? And that the ‘extremist rebels’ are a direct result of US actions in the region? If so, you are being willingly dishonest with your 2000 troops and 20 minutes of bombing lies. That doesn’t scratch the surface of US involvement.
As far as American exceptionalism... it's funny, because you think America is much more capable than I do considering your narrative, we aren't capable of half the things you accuse them of lol... Im also well versed, acknowledge, and completely disgusted by my countries horrific mistakes and unjustified miltary aggressions... but guess what, NOBODY'S hands are clean... NOBODY'S... just in the last 100 years, everyone is stained...
As far as owning it... I'm an american... I pay my taxes... I completely disagree with the level of defense spending and 95% of this bullshit... my taxes pay for those bombs... my tax dollars are still paying for the Iraq war... 500,000 dead... cia black budget... Guantonamo... maintaining 5,000 nuclear weapons on hair trigger status... W & Cheney authorizing torture... warrantless wiretapping... patriot act... you think i'm unaware? You think that doesn't bother me? You have no clue about me, or "owning it", so I suggest you hop off your high fucking horse
If I could change the world, I would. Until then, some things are just a reality my friend. I've come to grips with that. One day you'll join me
You need to lighten up, bro
You laugh, but it's a real world question, what do you think would happen? I'm sure Putin The Peacemaker would play nice... like he did with Ukraine...
Im sure if the US folded up tent in Asia and came home China would play real nice in the region... they certainly wouldn't abuse their power and influence... the beacon of human rights running protesters over with tanks would probably stop building artificial islands as military outposts and wouldn't claim by force more territory in the Sea of Japan...
The world would change drastically, and quickly... you can say what you want, but I dont think you or I really wants to live through such global upheaval...
Say what you want, but the planet is more stable, peaceful, educated, healthier, and wealthier than ever before... I'm not giving credit to America for that... but to ignore their role in the global cooperation post WW2 is foolish
Dont call us the next time Somali pirates disrupt shipping lanes lol
i am in a particularly foul mood tonight (despite the leafs winning) reading about fucking islamic extremists and saudi arabia and israel fucking being world class assholes ... and really have lost any tolerance for the people here who refuse to at least consider that they are supporting mass suffering through their ignorance and what can only be described as utter stupidity ...
will check out for a while from here .. . too many people who continue to slop up the lies from countries who's recent history is full of lies, evil and greed ...
#handsoffsyria
What should I do.to stop it?
And what are you doing to stop it? Hashtags?
What a joke
If so you would see I never said anything about overthrowing him, or dividing his country. You havent read me support the bombing either. Shit, you havent seen me support America being involved at all, have you?
I have only jumped in to counter the horeshit narrative Polaris likes to swear by that Assad is a righteous peacemaker that is misunderstood and that everything is a completely fabricated lie... for 7 years... all made up... everybody loves Assad and he hasn't done a this nasty things... oh, and Putin is also a righteous peacemaker... meanwhile it seems 3/4 of his sources literally work for RT or are mysterious twitter "journalists"
No matter Americas past or present agenda, that's just ridiculous. You dont see me cheering for any bombs, likely never will
Again, you are being dishonest and now coy with your narrative. You are pretending that full scale military operations are the only way the US/NATO can strong arm a nation. You know darn well that they can bring a country’s government to its knees virtually on a whim, and have done so dozens upon dozens of times. But Syria is what...pure altruism? Youre acknowledging past atrocities, but denying them in the present. It’s a pattern that is easily recognizable from ‘up here’ (literally and figuratively
How do we get to a point where ‘progressives’ who can acknowledge US/NATO atrocities, who hate their commander in chief, are downplaying said chief’s illegal bombing of a sovereign state? Bizarre. Nationalism is such a drag.
I know there are claims of wanting regime change... those go way back to the PNAC and NEOCON heyday we all love... I dont ignore that... but to be honest, our actions the last 7 years tell me we may actually want him to remain in control... think about it, 7 years of a civil war for regime change? Only 2000 troops and 2 very limited missile strikes at empty targets? If they wanted him, and they were as all powerful as made up to be, they would have gotten him out by now.
Obama gets a ton of criticism, by a lot of people, for ending the Iraq war and drawing down the US presence... a lot of people, very smart people that I tend to disagree with generally, think THAT is actually what lead to the rise of Islamic State and the regional destabilization... they also criticize him for the lack of military action in the red line incident... I tend to agree with Obama on both fronts, but who knows, maybe the other side has a point. I'm not always right, and to think you're never wrong is obviously a mistake
Shit, maybe even Dick Cheney is right once in a while lol
And goddamn it, if you fuckers don't all stop beating the shit out of each other I'm going to KINDLY request this stinkin' thread I started be LOCKED THE FUCK DOWN.
Thank you. I feel so much better having said that.
Peace, friends.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
One person say they just want people to think about this form another side....and if you disagree with what's said you are a brainwashed idiot.
Another states that Assad and Putin are no angels and then gets accused of being responsible for the suffering in Syria.
You can't make this shit up.
There are not 'claims' of wanting regime change - there are documented plans. 7 years of civil war for regime change - as H2M said, this is slow burn proxy war stuff. There is zero appetite amongst the American people for war against Syria, even after all this chemical attack propaganda. And as I've mentioned, it might not necessarily end with ousting Assad. It may end with the country being balkanized and Assad left in power over a limited area. I'm sure Obama blinking and giving the Russians time to move in foiled plans for all out regime change. Even if they pull out completely now, they have still accomplished part of the stated goal of weakening or spreading thin two Iranian allies (Hezbollah being the other).
Still, I saw a report this morning c/w satellite photos of the US expanding it's bases in Syria; building air strips etc, as they talk about pulling out. So who knows wtf they're up to.
Obama's 'withdrawl' did not create ISIS, nor did it destabilize the region...both were already done. Al Qaeda in Iraq (the main foundation of ISIS) has been active since 2003. What I presume it DID do, is allow ISIS to move into Syria more easily....in line with the plans laid out in the cables. The influx of foreign fighters to Syria began after Libya - the same proxy fighters that shared US goals in Libya, moved to Syria, where they also shared the US's goals. Direct ties can be made between these Libyan ISIS fighters and US policy makers - photos of their leaders with John McCain can be found online - he has snuck in and out of Syria more than once to meet with them.
Brian - m2h and I have found common ground on not wanting to bomb Syria, and identified some misunderstandings between us. So there's that. We're all big boys, perfectly capable of bowing out if it gets to be too intense.
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/syria-controversy-dont-believe-the-official-narrative/
The everyday skeptics deserve our congratulations, not condescending lectures and elitist contempt.
I'll say it first - Blumenthal is an anti-semite!
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/why-are-some-on-the-left-falling-for-fake-news-on-syria/
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/syria-controversy-who-supports-assad-in-the-civil-war/
When it come to this whole Syria business, only one thing we know for sure: its syriaously fucked up!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
next Santa story: putin/russia/assad employed 1000s of hepa air filters throughout dhouma then sprayed lysol and fabreze just before inspections, hence the delay.
With all due respect to you two, DrownedOut is pretty much the only person in this entire thread who actually offers any tangible facts, sources, or thorough knowledge.... Is he anti-American (i.e. biased against the USA)? Well, I don't know. Maybe. Are you DrownedOut? I think you can probably be trusted to assess that yourself honestly. I have occasionally thought that maybe you are, but have also considered the possibility that you focus on certain American activities because we are all inundated by pro-American information (also biased), and you feel the need to counteract it. If so, I think that's a somewhat reasonable objective.
I am not "anti-American"... and I'm not "pro-American". I feel about as objective as I can about this entire issue, and sincerely have had no desire to even reach the point of "picking sides" in a lot of cases (is that even necessary? I don't think so). And from what I can tell, you guys, my2hands and McGruff, are extremely biased towards America in most of your viewpoints (not just in this thread). I don't even think of this as your fault, really. Pro-American propaganda runs unusually deep and wide in the USA. It is very deliberate in American government, education, and media, and it propagates itself among the masses. The only reason I'm saying this is because it's impossible for anyone to see anything objectively if they are already completely convinced that they already are seeing things objectively, but aren't. And probably the vast majority of Americans are going to be specifically pro-American (i.e. biased) about a lot of things - it's only human - but FYI, from my perspective, you two seem outstandingly so a fair bit of the time. It seems to close you off to certain other ideas/possibilities/realities/facts/perspectives. I have to agree with DrownedOut about you falling victim to 'American exceptionalism'... I mean, more than most.
I call it how I see it... the world is not as black & white as some people like to make it, there is a lot of grey... and to just constantly bash america and portray it as evil is lazy and hypocritical
Honestly, it's not worth explaining me or my positions, feel free to label me how you wish
Sometimes liberals and progressives, like myself, need to realize the world isn't all rainbows and unicorns
Call me when 100,000 US troops are in Syria, then we can talk. Until then, feel free to continue to be Assad and Putin apologists
pj_s: I don’t consider myself anti-American. I love the land and a lot of people down there. I consider myself anti-imperialism, and anti-war....which basically by default makes me a huge critic of US/NATO.
US/NATO has been systematically encircling Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. Questioning whether id have preferred a soviet controlled world order following ww2 belies the fact that the US NATO has expanded immensely since then. So yes, a lot of my anti-war efforts focus on long term non-partisan US policies that endanger us all. Most instances of Russian ‘aggression’ can be traced back to plans for NATO expansion, which directly threatens Russia’s standing in the world by every metric. Countering the US policy propaganda is def part of my MO...not some deep seeded resentment of the US, nor a belief that Russia is innocent. Russia has been largely reactionary to US policy, and in doing so has been guilty of their own brutality. The record does not show them as the instigators in most instances.
Yes, of course, only bashing America and not spreading the blame around is super biased too... not sure anyone is doing that either.
And let me guess, the apartment bombings, a real false flag attack, was caused by them evil Americans as well, right?
Sweet baby jesus, this shit is comical
I dont know how many times i have to point this out, but i'll try again....... JIM, the joint investigative body of OPCW & The UN have clearly stated that they found the Syrian government responsible for multiple chemical attacks. That's a fact. Deny it, put your head in the sand, dont believe it, I dont really give a shit because it doesn't change reality.
Now pardon me, I have John Bolton on line 3, we're figuring out how to justify an invasion of Canada lol
In other words... your frustration with what you call anti-Americanism seems to me another symptom of what Drowned called your sense of American exceptionalism.
Good times in the gulags! I heard Thursdays were open mic night