9 Dead in Shooting at Black Church in SC

Thirty Bills Unpaid · December 2016

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?

Isn't any punishment at all revenge (if you're inclined to think that way)?

PJ_Soul · December 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
I have to disagree. I think some proponents do say "blood blood blood" (per se). I've seen as much said with my very own eyes. I have seen posts where people have detailed the torture they would personally inflict on some murderer or rapist .... Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure you've never seen a liberal saying "poor poor murderer".
Maybe not so succinctly.

No, not in any way at all.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · December 2016

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
I have to disagree. I think some proponents do say "blood blood blood" (per se). I've seen as much said with my very own eyes. I have seen posts where people have detailed the torture they would personally inflict on some murderer or rapist .... Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure you've never seen a liberal saying "poor poor murderer".
Maybe not so succinctly.
No, not in any way at all.

According to you who rests squarely on that side of the argument.

Your failure to see your lack of objectivity with regards to categorizing inflammatory posts equally on both sides of the equation doesn't make you right.

To squash this argument... Byrnzie succinctly stated that awaiting an execution date is far worse than any fate a murder victim may have incurred. To my way of thinking... yup... poor poor murderer. And there have been countless other comments not quite so extreme, but in the same dimension.

PJ_Soul · December 2016

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?

Yes. That is precisely what revenge/vengeance is.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · December 2016

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Yes. That is precisely what revenge/vengeance is.

Wrong again. That is what justice means.

Go Beavers · December 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Isn't any punishment at all revenge (if you're inclined to think that way)?

Some punishment by courts is to make amends, some is supposed to be a deterrent to committing future crimes, some is just to keep society safe. The state can do these things with out killing the offender. It seems like the death penalty is about individuals emotions rather than justice.

PJ_Soul · December 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Yes. That is precisely what revenge/vengeance is.
Wrong again. That is what justice means.

All you're doing is playing semantics. An eye for an eye... that is vengeance. If you want to call it justice too, that doesn't make it any less vengeful. You're just using a nicer word for the same thing in this context.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · December 2016

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Isn't any punishment at all revenge (if you're inclined to think that way)?
Some punishment by courts is to make amends, some is supposed to be a deterrent to committing future crimes, some is just to keep society safe. The state can do these things with out killing the offender. It seems like the death penalty is about individuals emotions rather than justice.

Well in the case of a sick individual that killed 9 innocent people he never even knew... the courts are doing all of the above with a particular emphasis on making amends. It seems to me that the DP reserved and applied for cases such as these most accurately reflects our level of disdain for the crime.

Roof is a lower form of life than a worm.

Degeneratefk · December 2016

Who cares if it's called vengeance or justice? Seriously? In this case, where there is no question of guilt, this person does not deserve the treatment he'd get in prison. It's not enough of a punishment. He's guilty of the most heinous of crimes. Rehabilitation? Does that really apply here? Can he be rehabilitated? Does it matter if he can be if he's just going to spend the rest of his pathetic life in jail? The death penalty is the only acceptable punishment.

I have weakened my stance on the DP. I do not think it should be used if there is even the slightest but of doubt of the persons guilt. But why does it bother you when it's clear cut like this? Saying you oppose government sanctioned killing is naive, in my opinion. Almost every country on the planet has been associated with some type of war, which is government sanctioned kilking. Not that makes it right. But it is what it is. No amount of protest is going to change that fact.

What do you suggest we do to Dylan Roof if you don't want to see him executed? Allow him to live, eat, watch tv, and breathe all at the tax payers expense? Why isn't death appropriate here?

Go Beavers · December 2016

Degeneratefk said:
Who cares if it's called vengeance or justice? Seriously? In this case, where there is no question of guilt, this person does not deserve the treatment he'd get in prison. It's not enough of a punishment. He's guilty of the most heinous of crimes. Rehabilitation? Does that really apply here? Can he be rehabilitated? Does it matter if he can be if he's just going to spend the rest of his pathetic life in jail? The death penalty is the only acceptable punishment.

I have weakened my stance on the DP. I do not think it should be used if there is even the slightest but of doubt of the persons guilt. But why does it bother you when it's clear cut like this? Saying you oppose government sanctioned killing is naive, in my opinion. Almost every country on the planet has been associated with some type of war, which is government sanctioned kilking. Not that makes it right. But it is what it is. No amount of protest is going to change that fact.

What do you suggest we do to Dylan Roof if you don't want to see him executed? Allow him to live, eat, watch tv, and breathe all at the tax payers expense? Why isn't death appropriate here?

He should be in prison for life. Why do you think the US is one of the few western countries with the death penalty? Being anti- war and anti-death penalty are in the same moral area, but the death penalty is more clear cut. Either the state can decide to kill someone or they won't. It can also be fairly easily removed, while war has more variables and is more complicated. The death penalty is never appropriate.

Go Beavers · December 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Isn't any punishment at all revenge (if you're inclined to think that way)?
Some punishment by courts is to make amends, some is supposed to be a deterrent to committing future crimes, some is just to keep society safe. The state can do these things with out killing the offender. It seems like the death penalty is about individuals emotions rather than justice.
Well in the case of a sick individual that killed 9 innocent people he never even knew... the courts are doing all of the above with a particular emphasis on making amends. It seems to me that the DP reserved and applied for cases such as these most accurately reflects our level of disdain for the crime.

Roof is a lower form of life than a worm.

He's human, but you raise the point that we have to de-humanize someone in order to kill them.

PJ_Soul · December 2016

I think we all know that opponents of the DP aren't changing their minds and neither are supporters. I do 100% believe that the DP is ONLY about vengeance - as GoBeavers said, the justice system is able to keep society safe from these people without killing them. Opponents have several good, logical arguments against the DP that have nothing to do with the welfare of murderers. But it's my opinion that supporters only have one reason behind their belief: revenge. They can call it "justice" all they want... I should think that that kind of "justice" is never justice that any human has the right to dole out. I am an Atheist, but if I did believe in God, I would definitely say that only God should be able to dole out that kind of "justice", because that kind of "justice" handed out by people just drags down everyone. Punishing murder with murder is a moral absurdity that I don't abide by. And when that method of "justice" (the DP) endangers even one innocent person in the process (which it absolutely does), there is no excuse that will suffice.

As for Roof... he will almost certainly appeal the death sentence. That will go on for years and years and years, dragging all the victims through it over and over again so that they can't move on for probably a decade or whatever, and all that will cost just as much as keeping the prick in a cell. If he died, I would be happy. I couldn't care less about the life of the guy, or lack thereof. I just don't think that a government should have the power to kill for vengeance or send the message to everyone that punishing murder by killing is morally acceptable, because it's not. I stand for the high road, not the low road. The low road belongs to the criminals.

Degeneratefk · December 2016

I completely disagree with the notion that the DP is never appropriate. This case is the perfect example of that.

PJ_Soul · December 2016

Degeneratefk said:
I completely disagree with the notion that the DP is never appropriate. This case is the perfect example of that.

I gathered that.

I am against the DP 100% of the time. The extent of the atrocity is totally irrelevant to my stance on capital punishment. Now, if it actually prevented violent crimes, I would very likely have a different viewpoint (although the problem of innocents being found guilty would still be an issue). But it doesn't prevent violent crime. So no, I do not support it no matter what the circumstances are.

jeffbr · December 2016

PJ_Soul said:

Degeneratefk said:
I completely disagree with the notion that the DP is never appropriate. This case is the perfect example of that.
I gathered that.
I am against the DP 100% of the time. The extent of the atrocity is totally irrelevant to my stance on capital punishment. Now, if it actually prevented violent crimes, I would very likely have a different viewpoint (although the problem of innocents being found guilty would still be an issue). But it doesn't prevent violent crime. So no, I do not support it no matter what the circumstances are.

But the DP does prevent violent crimes. The person executed will never again be able to harm another person, either on the streets or in prison committing violence against another inmate or corrections officer.

I'm generally uneasy with the DP, but make exceptions when there is a clear case (video, a confession, etc...). This one is pretty clear to me.

rustneversleeps · December 2016

Degeneratefk said:
Who cares if it's called vengeance or justice? Seriously? In this case, where there is no question of guilt, this person does not deserve the treatment he'd get in prison. It's not enough of a punishment. He's guilty of the most heinous of crimes. Rehabilitation? Does that really apply here? Can he be rehabilitated? Does it matter if he can be if he's just going to spend the rest of his pathetic life in jail? The death penalty is the only acceptable punishment.

I have weakened my stance on the DP. I do not think it should be used if there is even the slightest but of doubt of the persons guilt. But why does it bother you when it's clear cut like this? Saying you oppose government sanctioned killing is naive, in my opinion. Almost every country on the planet has been associated with some type of war, which is government sanctioned kilking. Not that makes it right. But it is what it is. No amount of protest is going to change that fact.

What do you suggest we do to Dylan Roof if you don't want to see him executed? Allow him to live, eat, watch tv, and breathe all at the tax payers expense? Why isn't death appropriate here?

100% appropriate. i see nothing wrong at all with death by electrocution for him.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · December 2016

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Isn't any punishment at all revenge (if you're inclined to think that way)?
Some punishment by courts is to make amends, some is supposed to be a deterrent to committing future crimes, some is just to keep society safe. The state can do these things with out killing the offender. It seems like the death penalty is about individuals emotions rather than justice.
Well in the case of a sick individual that killed 9 innocent people he never even knew... the courts are doing all of the above with a particular emphasis on making amends. It seems to me that the DP reserved and applied for cases such as these most accurately reflects our level of disdain for the crime.

Roof is a lower form of life than a worm.
He's human, but you raise the point that we have to de-humanize someone in order to kill them.

That's not a valid point at all and more philosophical fluff.

Go Beavers · December 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Isn't any punishment at all revenge (if you're inclined to think that way)?
Some punishment by courts is to make amends, some is supposed to be a deterrent to committing future crimes, some is just to keep society safe. The state can do these things with out killing the offender. It seems like the death penalty is about individuals emotions rather than justice.
Well in the case of a sick individual that killed 9 innocent people he never even knew... the courts are doing all of the above with a particular emphasis on making amends. It seems to me that the DP reserved and applied for cases such as these most accurately reflects our level of disdain for the crime.

Roof is a lower form of life than a worm.
He's human, but you raise the point that we have to de-humanize someone in order to kill them.
That's not a valid point at all and more philosophical fluff.

It's not fluff. There's a mental process that needs to happen for someone to kill someone else. It's part of military training, also.

Degeneratefk · December 2016

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Isn't any punishment at all revenge (if you're inclined to think that way)?
Some punishment by courts is to make amends, some is supposed to be a deterrent to committing future crimes, some is just to keep society safe. The state can do these things with out killing the offender. It seems like the death penalty is about individuals emotions rather than justice.
Well in the case of a sick individual that killed 9 innocent people he never even knew... the courts are doing all of the above with a particular emphasis on making amends. It seems to me that the DP reserved and applied for cases such as these most accurately reflects our level of disdain for the crime.

Roof is a lower form of life than a worm.
He's human, but you raise the point that we have to de-humanize someone in order to kill them.
That's not a valid point at all and more philosophical fluff.
It's not fluff. There's a mental process that needs to happen for someone to kill someone else. It's part of military training, also.

Maybe I'm just a simpleton. But in order to kill someone on death row, you must put needles in his arms. And push a button. That's it. The machine does the rest.

Go Beavers · December 2016

Degeneratefk said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Go Beavers said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Soul...

Liberals have never said poor poor murderer just like proponents have never said blood blood blood.

Implying proponents are saying blood blood blood when they say something like 'good riddance' is tantamount to implying liberals empathize with the murderer when they concern themselves so much with his fate.
Proponents want someone dead, using whatever words, and then call it justice.
Well... yah.

In this case... we have a mushroom headed, hate filled mutant that killed some innocent people in a church. Proponents think that a warm cell, clean clothing, cooked meals, and internet use is not fitting for a punishment.
Isn't punishment that matches the crime revenge?
Isn't any punishment at all revenge (if you're inclined to think that way)?
Some punishment by courts is to make amends, some is supposed to be a deterrent to committing future crimes, some is just to keep society safe. The state can do these things with out killing the offender. It seems like the death penalty is about individuals emotions rather than justice.
Well in the case of a sick individual that killed 9 innocent people he never even knew... the courts are doing all of the above with a particular emphasis on making amends. It seems to me that the DP reserved and applied for cases such as these most accurately reflects our level of disdain for the crime.

Roof is a lower form of life than a worm.
He's human, but you raise the point that we have to de-humanize someone in order to kill them.
That's not a valid point at all and more philosophical fluff.
It's not fluff. There's a mental process that needs to happen for someone to kill someone else. It's part of military training, also.
Maybe I'm just a simpleton. But in order to kill someone on death row, you must put needles in his arms. And push a button. That's it. The machine does the rest.

In order for people to be okay with the government killing people and oeople being sentenced to death, they have to dehumanize the person first, and say things like they are a "lower form of life than a worm".

9 Dead in Shooting at Black Church in SC

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