Animals in Captivity

2-feign-reluctance · May 2016

HughFreakingDillon said:
after thinking critically about the backlash towards the parents, seriously, I've said this before and I'll say it again (and I believe PJ_Soul also said something similar): EVERY SINGLE PARENT has had a moment where something like this could have happened, but it just DIDN'T. Those people are lucky. These people were not. our kids are not tethered to us. they get away from us sometimes. It's terrifying. 99% of the time it works out ok.

I've read some comments saying "fuck this kid". Really? FUCK THIS KID? he did what any boy that age would do. he wasn't stupid. he's a fucking kid. he's exploring. he didn't understand the danger.

some people.

Exactly. Something special when you become a parent - every fucking person on the planet has something to say about how you 'should' be doing this and that. Not to pick on my child-less friends out there in the world, but those folks sounding off on this with nasty words for the the parent and the kid really need to step back and read Hugh's post.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2016

Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2016

https://www.facebook.com/amanda.odonoughue/posts/1203379586363094

Amanda O'Donoughue
14 hrs ·
I am going to try to clear up a few things that have been weighing on me about Harambe and the Cinci Zoo since I read the news this afternoon.
I have worked with Gorillas as a zookeeper while in my twenties (before children) and they are my favorite animal (out of dozens) that I have ever worked closely with. I am gonna go ahead and list a few facts, thoughts and opinions for those of you that aren't familiar with the species itself, or how a zoo operates in emergency situations.

Now Gorillas are considered 'gentle giants' at least when compared with their more aggressive cousins the chimpanzee, but a 400+ pound male in his prime is as strong as roughly 10 adult humans. What can you bench press? OK, now multiply that number by ten. An adult male silverback gorilla has one job, to protect his group. He does this by bluffing or intimidating anything that he feels threatened by.

Gorillas are considered a Class 1 mammal, the most dangerous class of mammals in the animal kingdom, again, merely due to their size and strength. They are grouped in with other apes, tigers, lions, bears, etc.
While working in an AZA accredited zoo with Apes, keepers DO NOT work in contact with them. Meaning they do NOT go in with these animals. There is always a welded mesh barrier between the animal and the humans.
In more recent decades, zoos have begun to redesign enclosures, removing all obvious caging and attempting to create a seamless view of the animals for the visitor to enjoy watching animals in a more natural looking habitat. *this is great until little children begin falling into exhibits* which of course can happen to anyone, especially in a crowded zoo-like setting.

I have watched this video over again, and with the silverback's postering, and tight lips, it's pretty much the stuff of any keeper's nightmares, and I have had MANY while working with them. This job is not for the complacent. Gorillas are kind, curious, and sometimes silly, but they are also very large, very strong animals. I always brought my OCD to work with me. checking and rechecking locks to make sure my animals and I remained separated before entering to clean.

I keep hearing that the Gorilla was trying to protect the boy. I do not find this to be true. Harambe reaches for the boys hands and arms, but only to position the child better for his own displaying purposes.
Males do very elaborate displays when highly agitated, slamming and dragging things about. Typically they would drag large branches, barrels and heavy weighted balls around to make as much noise as possible. Not in an effort to hurt anyone or anything (usually) but just to intimidate. It was clear to me that he was reacting to the screams coming from the gathering crowd.

Harambe was most likely not going to separate himself from that child without seriously hurting him first (again due to mere size and strength, not malicious intent) Why didn't they use treats? well, they attempted to call them off exhibit (which animals hate), the females in the group came in, but Harambe did not. What better treat for a captive animal than a real live kid!
They didn't use Tranquilizers for a few reasons, A. Harambe would've taken too long to become immobilized, and could have really injured the child in the process as the drugs used may not work quickly enough depending on the stress of the situation and the dose B. Harambe would've have drowned in the moat if immobilized in the water, and possibly fallen on the boy trapping him and drowning him as well.
Many zoos have the protocol to call on their expertly trained dart team in the event of an animal escape or in the event that a human is trapped with a dangerous animal. They will evaluate the scene as quickly and as safely as possible, and will make the most informed decision as how they will handle the animal.
I can't point fingers at anyone in this situation, but we need to really evaluate the safety of the animal enclosures from the visitor side. Not impeding that view is a tough one, but their should be no way that someone can find themselves inside of an animal's exhibit.
I know one thing for sure, those keepers lost a beautiful, and I mean gorgeous silverback and friend. I feel their loss with them this week. As educators and conservators of endangered species, all we can do is shine a light on the beauty and majesty of these animals in hopes to spark a love and a need to keep them from vanishing from our planet. Child killers, they are not. It's unfortunate for the conservation of the species, and the loss of revenue a beautiful zoo such as Cinci will lose. tragedy all around.

*me working (very carefully) with a 400+ pound silverback circa 2009

HughFreakingDillon · May 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.

well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2016

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.
well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.

Common sense tells me otherwise. Ultimately, her lack of supervision resulted in this situation- there's no denying this.

I agree that the gorilla needed to be shot for the safety of the child. It's just unfortunate the idiot woke up in the morning and decided she was taking her act to the zoo.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.
well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.
Common sense tells me otherwise. Ultimately, her lack of supervision resulted in this situation- there's no denying this.

I agree that the gorilla needed to be shot for the safety of the child. It's just unfortunate the idiot woke up in the morning and decided she was taking her act to the zoo.

that's not common sense. that's assumption.

an insecure enclosure + her slight lapse in supervision (which we've all done as parents-there is no denying THAT) = this situation

PJ_Soul · May 2016

Degeneratefk said:
I'm fine with zoos. I'm also fine with the decision to kill that animal to save that kids life.

Like it or not, animals born in captivity can't live in the wild. So why not have keep them in a zoo?

I think the parenting issue should be addressed, but isn't the point. The kid got in, it happens. I'd bet that everyone that has kids at some point lost track of them for a second during their lives. And for those that don't have kids, a second is all it takes for something like this to happen.

Why it keep them in a zoo? Because it is cruel and there are other options!
Zoos and aquariums are no more than animal cruelty as far as I'm concerned. If you're okay with that, fine, but shame on you.
There arw other options for conservation. I used to buy into the argument about the conservation efforts, breeding programs, education, blah blah blah, used to try and justify zoos. But i have since learned that those efforts could easily be directed towards non-cruel efforts in wildlife sanctuaries around the world and through other organizations that work hard towards conservation and preservation without putting animals in prison for life.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2016

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.
well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.
Common sense tells me otherwise. Ultimately, her lack of supervision resulted in this situation- there's no denying this.

I agree that the gorilla needed to be shot for the safety of the child. It's just unfortunate the idiot woke up in the morning and decided she was taking her act to the zoo.
that's not common sense. that's assumption.

an insecure enclosure + her slight lapse in supervision (which we've all done as parents-there is no denying THAT) = this situation

I am making an assumption, but so are you- in favour of the woman.

In my opinion, I think my scenario makes more sense than yours though ('slight lapse' in supervision versus 'more serious lapse' that saw the kid find his way into the enclosure after some snooping around).

PJ_Soul · May 2016

Either way, a gorilla enclosure shouldn't allow 4 year olds to fall into them. That should have been impossible. I see this as 100% the zoo's fault. As already said, a kid can get away from a parent - whether it's a good parent or a bad parent is irrelevant. The zoo enclosures need to be built to prevent little kids from falling in. Period. Better yet, the zoo shouldn't exist at all. Then none of this would have happened.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.
well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.
Common sense tells me otherwise. Ultimately, her lack of supervision resulted in this situation- there's no denying this.

I agree that the gorilla needed to be shot for the safety of the child. It's just unfortunate the idiot woke up in the morning and decided she was taking her act to the zoo.
that's not common sense. that's assumption.

an insecure enclosure + her slight lapse in supervision (which we've all done as parents-there is no denying THAT) = this situation

I am making an assumption, but so are you- in favour of the woman.

In my opinion, I think my scenario makes more sense than yours though ('slight lapse' in supervision versus 'more serious lapse' that saw the kid find his way into the enclosure after some snooping around).

no I'm not. I put the blame on both of them equally. it's baffling how quick to judge some people can be without even a fraction of the facts.

MayDay10 · May 2016

so... what? they should have allowed the kid to be torn to shreds to teach the parents a lesson?

PJ_Soul said:
Either way, a gorilla enclosure should allow 4 year olds to fall into them. That should have been impossible. I see this as 100% the zoo's fault. As already said, a kid can get away from a parent - whether it's a good parent or a bad parent is irrelevant. The zoo enclosures need to be built to prevent little kids from falling in. Period. Better yet, the zoo shouldn't exist at all. Then none of this would have happened.

word. There is a reasonable expectation that the Gorilla habitat is impossible for curious kids to enter.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2016

PJ_Soul said:
Either way, a gorilla enclosure should allow 4 year olds to fall into them. That should have been impossible. I see this as 100% the zoo's fault. As already said, a kid can get away from a parent - whether it's a good parent or a bad parent is irrelevant. The zoo enclosures need to be built to prevent little kids from falling in. Period. Better yet, the zoo shouldn't exist at all. Then none of this would have happened.

I see the woman as complicit, however... I have to agree with what you're saying regarding enclosures needing to be fail proof. I also agree with you regarding the general premise that there should not even be a zoo.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2016

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.
well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.
Common sense tells me otherwise. Ultimately, her lack of supervision resulted in this situation- there's no denying this.

I agree that the gorilla needed to be shot for the safety of the child. It's just unfortunate the idiot woke up in the morning and decided she was taking her act to the zoo.
that's not common sense. that's assumption.

an insecure enclosure + her slight lapse in supervision (which we've all done as parents-there is no denying THAT) = this situation

I am making an assumption, but so are you- in favour of the woman.

In my opinion, I think my scenario makes more sense than yours though ('slight lapse' in supervision versus 'more serious lapse' that saw the kid find his way into the enclosure after some snooping around).
no I'm not. I put the blame on both of them equally. it's baffling how quick to judge some people can be without even a fraction of the facts.

Are you denying the fact that supervision lapsed allowing the child to discover the breach in security and enter the compound?

HughFreakingDillon · May 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.
well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.
Common sense tells me otherwise. Ultimately, her lack of supervision resulted in this situation- there's no denying this.

I agree that the gorilla needed to be shot for the safety of the child. It's just unfortunate the idiot woke up in the morning and decided she was taking her act to the zoo.
that's not common sense. that's assumption.

an insecure enclosure + her slight lapse in supervision (which we've all done as parents-there is no denying THAT) = this situation

I am making an assumption, but so are you- in favour of the woman.

In my opinion, I think my scenario makes more sense than yours though ('slight lapse' in supervision versus 'more serious lapse' that saw the kid find his way into the enclosure after some snooping around).
no I'm not. I put the blame on both of them equally. it's baffling how quick to judge some people can be without even a fraction of the facts.
Are you denying the fact that supervision lapsed allowing the child to discover the breach in security and enter the compound?

obviously not. see my equation above. it states it very clearly.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2016

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.
well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.
Common sense tells me otherwise. Ultimately, her lack of supervision resulted in this situation- there's no denying this.

I agree that the gorilla needed to be shot for the safety of the child. It's just unfortunate the idiot woke up in the morning and decided she was taking her act to the zoo.
that's not common sense. that's assumption.

an insecure enclosure + her slight lapse in supervision (which we've all done as parents-there is no denying THAT) = this situation

I am making an assumption, but so are you- in favour of the woman.

In my opinion, I think my scenario makes more sense than yours though ('slight lapse' in supervision versus 'more serious lapse' that saw the kid find his way into the enclosure after some snooping around).
no I'm not. I put the blame on both of them equally. it's baffling how quick to judge some people can be without even a fraction of the facts.
Are you denying the fact that supervision lapsed allowing the child to discover the breach in security and enter the compound?
obviously not. see my equation above. it states it very clearly.

Sorry. I do see that.

My expectations for parents are very high. I get bothered when I read of things like this. She did fail on some level. What level exactly? I can't say for sure; however, I'm stuck on 'failed at some level'.

MayDay10 · May 2016

http://live.buffalonews.com/2016/05/31/criticize-mom-cincinnati-please-read/?utm_campaign=puma&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1464711109

HughFreakingDillon · May 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Does anyone here think that the three year old kid's discerning eye detected a breach in the compound's security... dashed from his mother's grip... slipped through the breach... and jumped into the compound for the refreshing dip he was whining for?

This was neglectful parenting. Bottom line.

The kid needed time to explore the perimeter and discover whatever it was he did that allowed him access. Typically speaking... at zoos and the like... when kids approach barriers... parents say, "Hey. Get back here." And if a kid refuses to listen... then the vice grip is the next strategy.
well, I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. you are making several assumptions here. from what I've read, there was no "breach". he could have slipped through any portion of the enclosure, as it was designed for better viewing for the public.
Common sense tells me otherwise. Ultimately, her lack of supervision resulted in this situation- there's no denying this.

I agree that the gorilla needed to be shot for the safety of the child. It's just unfortunate the idiot woke up in the morning and decided she was taking her act to the zoo.
that's not common sense. that's assumption.

an insecure enclosure + her slight lapse in supervision (which we've all done as parents-there is no denying THAT) = this situation

I am making an assumption, but so are you- in favour of the woman.

In my opinion, I think my scenario makes more sense than yours though ('slight lapse' in supervision versus 'more serious lapse' that saw the kid find his way into the enclosure after some snooping around).
no I'm not. I put the blame on both of them equally. it's baffling how quick to judge some people can be without even a fraction of the facts.
Are you denying the fact that supervision lapsed allowing the child to discover the breach in security and enter the compound?
obviously not. see my equation above. it states it very clearly.
Sorry. I do see that.

My expectations for parents are very high. I get bothered when I read of things like this. She did fail on some level. What level exactly? I can't say for sure; however, I'm stuck on 'failed at some level'.

so are mine. I get frustrated by things I see on a daily basis. But then I have to step back and remember I'm not perfect either. far from it. I'm honestly very fortunate that in my times of insufficiency that nothing terrible has happened.

HughFreakingDillon · May 2016

MayDay10 said:
http://live.buffalonews.com/2016/05/31/criticize-mom-cincinnati-please-read/?utm_campaign=puma&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1464711109

excellent. thank you for posting.

Enkidu · May 2016

MayDay10 said:
http://live.buffalonews.com/2016/05/31/criticize-mom-cincinnati-please-read/?utm_campaign=puma&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1464711109

Great piece - tough to read.

It's a tragedy all around - speaking as a parent, yep, it's tough watching your kids all the time. Accidents happen. But in 38 years, no one had ever gotten into that gorilla enclosure before. I don't know exactly what happened - I've heard different stories - was the mother on her cell? Yes, I feel empathy for her. But I also think she has to take a portion of the blame.

(And as I've said before, I think zoos are creepy and yes, I went to them when I was a kid and I took my kids to zoos. I understand why they had to kill the gorilla, but I still think it's a shame.)

Thirty Bills Unpaid · May 2016

I'm repeating myself, but I find it exceptionally hard to believe that the three year old kid recognized an opportunity and pounced on it in the wink of an eye. It's highly more plausible that he was snooping around where he shouldn't have been snooping around- unchecked- and then made his way into the compound after stumbling across a design flaw.

In this time of snooping around... whether it was 30 seconds or whether it was a minute or two... the mom needed to parent. She didn't. As such... she's subject to some criticism- she's earned it.

If a kid leans way out to catch a foul ball against the small railings at a baseball game and falls to their death... is it the venue's fault? It might be, but I can tell you when I'm at the park with my kids... I instruct them and remind them and pay close attention to them so that this situation doesn't present itself. Acting like this is my job as a parent. I actually have a bit of a problem with some of the rails at ball parks, regardless... it's my job to keep my kids safe. If I felt that my kids simply could not keep themselves from harm at the ballpark... I wouldn't bring them until I was confident they would.

Animals in Captivity

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