Bernie Sanders for President

benjs · March 2016

lolobugg said:
Bernie has not been defined by the Right wing or the super PAC's. He and Kasich have high 'no opinion' numbers on them still. They are undefined. For whatever it's worth, both Hillary and Trump are very well defined. I don't think either of them have very much movement, either up or down, in a general election.

Bernie has got nothing to hide. HRC has got all kinds of skeletons in her closet that the RNC is salivating over.

He is the better candidate but he will not be the nominee.
Hilary against Trump is what will be left - Trump will win if Bernie is not the nominee.

This is what I am afraid of. The party line Dems will get behind Bernie if he wins the nomination.
I can't say the same for the younger voters and Bernie supporters that are tired of the traditional politicians. there is NO enthusiasm for HRC outside of the people that were already planning on voting for her since 2008.

This might be crazy talk, but would Bernie Sanders as an independent stand a chance?

Free · March 2016

mrussel1 said:
Is this the commercial you're talking about? I think it's pretty good.

"if you have a presidential candidate that supports someone like our mayor"... that is a negative ad. You may like it because you agree with it, but it's a negative ad. And that was my counter to your point above talking about "Hillary crying".

We have a president that support this mayor. Where's your outrage, Free? Is it that selective?

You are really reaching here. Considering how brutal political ads and commercials can be, and you're going to say this one is negative. I can't help but laugh I'm sorry. anyone who supports this mayor is not on my list.

Free · March 2016

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

lolobugg said:
I will too.
I don't like Hillary as a person but we can't afford to have another Republican in office at this time.
just wish the DNC would wake up and see that Bernie is the better candidate for the general election.
He is the better candidate but he will not be the nominee.
Hilary against Trump is what will be left - Trump will win if Bernie is not the nominee.

You gotta love the folks on here who declare who the next president will be. They know it, they proclaim it, dammit!!

Free · March 2016

benjs said:

lolobugg said:
Bernie has not been defined by the Right wing or the super PAC's. He and Kasich have high 'no opinion' numbers on them still. They are undefined. For whatever it's worth, both Hillary and Trump are very well defined. I don't think either of them have very much movement, either up or down, in a general election.

Bernie has got nothing to hide. HRC has got all kinds of skeletons in her closet that the RNC is salivating over.

He is the better candidate but he will not be the nominee.
Hilary against Trump is what will be left - Trump will win if Bernie is not the nominee.

This is what I am afraid of. The party line Dems will get behind Bernie if he wins the nomination.
I can't say the same for the younger voters and Bernie supporters that are tired of the traditional politicians. there is NO enthusiasm for HRC outside of the people that were already planning on voting for her since 2008.
This might be crazy talk, but would Bernie Sanders as an independent stand a chance?

If he went on the third-party ala Ralph Nader a long time ago, he would never have had a chance. Now? A completely different story and yes he would definitely have a chance.

JimmyV · March 2016

benjs said:

lolobugg said:
Bernie has not been defined by the Right wing or the super PAC's. He and Kasich have high 'no opinion' numbers on them still. They are undefined. For whatever it's worth, both Hillary and Trump are very well defined. I don't think either of them have very much movement, either up or down, in a general election.

Bernie has got nothing to hide. HRC has got all kinds of skeletons in her closet that the RNC is salivating over.

He is the better candidate but he will not be the nominee.
Hilary against Trump is what will be left - Trump will win if Bernie is not the nominee.

This is what I am afraid of. The party line Dems will get behind Bernie if he wins the nomination.
I can't say the same for the younger voters and Bernie supporters that are tired of the traditional politicians. there is NO enthusiasm for HRC outside of the people that were already planning on voting for her since 2008.
This might be crazy talk, but would Bernie Sanders as an independent stand a chance?

No. He would syphon off votes from Hillary and end up helping the Republican nominee more than anything else. Plus, a lot of Democrats have supported him in this primary with their votes. It would be a slap in the face to them if he were to abandon the party now and run as an independent.

EarlWelsh · March 2016

mrussel1 said:

Free said:
Is this the commercial you're talking about? I think it's pretty good.

"if you have a presidential candidate that supports someone like our mayor"... that is a negative ad. You may like it because you agree with it, but it's a negative ad. And that was my counter to your point above talking about "Hillary crying".

We have a president that support this mayor. Where's your outrage, Free? Is it that selective?
Yeah, definitely not a negative ad. If this is your idea of negative, then the skin is thin, my man.

Free · March 2016

JimmyV said:

benjs said:

lolobugg said:
Bernie has not been defined by the Right wing or the super PAC's. He and Kasich have high 'no opinion' numbers on them still. They are undefined. For whatever it's worth, both Hillary and Trump are very well defined. I don't think either of them have very much movement, either up or down, in a general election.

Bernie has got nothing to hide. HRC has got all kinds of skeletons in her closet that the RNC is salivating over.

He is the better candidate but he will not be the nominee.
Hilary against Trump is what will be left - Trump will win if Bernie is not the nominee.

This is what I am afraid of. The party line Dems will get behind Bernie if he wins the nomination.
I can't say the same for the younger voters and Bernie supporters that are tired of the traditional politicians. there is NO enthusiasm for HRC outside of the people that were already planning on voting for her since 2008.
This might be crazy talk, but would Bernie Sanders as an independent stand a chance?
No. He would syphon off votes from Hillary and end up helping the Republican nominee more than anything else. Plus, a lot of Democrats have supported him in this primary with their votes. It would be a slap in the face to them if he were to abandon the party now and run as an independent.

That's ridiculous. Are you forgetting that in most states, they have CLOSED primaries? All of us who are Independents haven't even been heard from yet, and Sanders is so popular, there is no way to guess exactly how much support he really has. Not to mention all of the states that hasn't even had primaries yet! As usual, per media, Bernie is wholly underestimated.

And seeing that many here like polls, check out what Bernie's margins are to beat Trump vs. Clinton's.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.html

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html

JimmyV · March 2016

It's far from ridiculous. Ralph Nader had support too and what did he accomplish in 2000? He swung both New Hampshire and Florida away from Gore, either of which would have given that election to the Democrats.

Plus, Nader ran as an independent from the beginning. Bernie Sanders didn't do that. He chose to run as a Democrat. Carrying the fight to the convention is one thing. Launching an independent bid is something else entirely. If he doesn't get the nomination I expect him to bow out gracefully.

mrussel1 · March 2016

Free said:

mrussel1 said:
Is this the commercial you're talking about? I think it's pretty good.

"if you have a presidential candidate that supports someone like our mayor"... that is a negative ad. You may like it because you agree with it, but it's a negative ad. And that was my counter to your point above talking about "Hillary crying".

We have a president that support this mayor. Where's your outrage, Free? Is it that selective?

You are really reaching here. Considering how brutal political ads and commercials can be, and you're going to say this one is negative. I can't help but laugh I'm sorry. anyone who supports this mayor is not on my list.

Yeah, they are brutal and I'm not talking about the degree, but the definition of a negative ad is one that seeks to elevate a candidate by denigrating the other candidate. That's what happened here. It's by definition, a negative ad. And it's what Sanders is supposedly above.

mrussel1 · March 2016

lolobugg said:

Bernie has got nothing to hide. HRC has got all kinds of skeletons in her closet that the RNC is salivating over.

This is what I am afraid of. The party line Dems will get behind Bernie if he wins the nomination.
I can't say the same for the younger voters and Bernie supporters that are tired of the traditional politicians. there is NO enthusiasm for HRC outside of the people that were already planning on voting for her since 2008.

Don't be naive. First, how in the world would you know what Bernie has to hide? Maybe he cheated on his taxes. Maybe he had a one night affair at a conference. You have no idea.

Second, what he stands for can be easily spun into a negative political ad. How do you think this would play in PA, South Florida (little Havana), AZ and states where the population tends to be over 40? That is people who grew up in the Cold War?

"Did you know that while in Nicaragua celebrating the anniversary of the brutal Communist rule by the Sandanistas, Bernie Sanders praised the Cuban Gov't of Fidel Castro [Cut to widely available video] “In 1961, [America] invaded Cuba, and everybody was totally convinced that Castro was the worst guy in the world,” said Sanders.

“All the Cuban people were going to rise up in rebellion against Fidel Castro. They forgot that he educated their kids, gave their kids health care, totally transformed society,” he said.

“You know, not to say Fidel Castro and Cuba are perfect - they are certainly not - but just because Ronald Reagan dislikes these people does not mean to say the people in these nations feel the same,” continued Sanders.

Then in 2005, Sanders spurned US companies to cut a deal with a company controlled by Hugo Chavez, strongman dictator of Venezuela.

In November, let Bernie Sanders and his socialist allies in Congress know that this is America and we don't want to be Nicaragua, Cuba or Venezuela. We're going to make America Great Again

mrussel1 · March 2016

And then I'd run an ad on the fact that he went to the Soviet Union on his honeymoon. And that's without doing more than 2 min. of oppo research. Imagine when millions are lined up against him. Just ask Ted Cruz what kind of weekend he had...

brianlux · March 2016

Same question here, mrussel. Why do you spend so much time fighting Bernie here? I'm sincerely curious about this.

mrussel1 · March 2016

brianlux said:
Same question here, mrussel. Why do you spend so much time fighting Bernie here? I'm sincerely curious about this.

Because I'm fighting for objective arguments. I'm sincerely interested in discourse that is grounded in fact and reason. I'm a lifelong Democrat. I've never voted for an R in my life and my first election was 92. And I'm a contributing member of the party. So when I hear people who think Sanders will do better in a general than Hillary, I think that is flawed and I'm going to say so (I'm not saying impossible). When I see the spurious, un-grounded trash about HRC (how about Free accusing her of murdering JFK jr??), I'm going to say something. When I see the fantasy land perspective that he's going to win the nomination when it's literally, maybe 10/90 at best, I'm going to challenge it.

Who would have though that John Kerry's war record would have cost him the election? No one until the Swift Boat Vets. How about the Willie Horton ad for Dukakis? How about the NRA taking down Al Gore in TN in 2000? People who think Bernie is a good guy therefore is going to win the general when he has an "unsure" rating of up to 30% in some polls, tells me that he is going to get trashed with negative ads. Hillary is well defined. It's so bad that Drudge is already bringing back Bill's mistresses. That's all they got.

BrokenGlass · March 2016

I find this argument that Bernie's poll numbers against the Repubs is untrustworthy because he hasn't been vetted like Hillary extremely fallacious and self-serving. Since Hillary has been so thoroughly vetted and scrutinized for so many years, shouldn't she also have a huge ADVANTAGE over Bernie because of all the exposure of her supposed positives, i.e. her "experience", her "accomplishments", her "battle-tested leadership", ad nauseam? After all, being in the public eye for all these years has given her a yuuuge headstart in terms of name recognition, right? And, having had this advantage, her unfavorability ratings are in the negative, just slightly less than Trump. This tells me that people see Hillary for the untrustworthy flip-flopper she truly is. She has spent her entire political career holding a finger to the wind, triangulating her positions accordingly. The woman doesn't have a principled bone in her body, and she has been around long enough that her inauthenticity is transparent. And unlike you, I don't take the unsure number to be negative. I interpret the 30% unsure polling number to be what it says; people who dont know Bernie well enough to have a firm opinion. And, I have enough faith in my candidate to feel that those "unsure"s will feel the Bern once they are informed.

brianlux · March 2016

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:
Same question here, mrussel. Why do you spend so much time fighting Bernie here? I'm sincerely curious about this.
Because I'm fighting for objective arguments. I'm sincerely interested in discourse that is grounded in fact and reason. I'm a lifelong Democrat. I've never voted for an R in my life and my first election was 92. And I'm a contributing member of the party. So when I hear people who think Sanders will do better in a general than Hillary, I think that is flawed and I'm going to say so (I'm not saying impossible). When I see the spurious, un-grounded trash about HRC (how about Free accusing her of murdering JFK jr??), I'm going to say something. When I see the fantasy land perspective that he's going to win the nomination when it's literally, maybe 10/90 at best, I'm going to challenge it.

Who would have though that John Kerry's war record would have cost him the election? No one until the Swift Boat Vets. How about the Willie Horton ad for Dukakis? How about the NRA taking down Al Gore in TN in 2000? People who think Bernie is a good guy therefore is going to win the general when he has an "unsure" rating of up to 30% in some polls, tells me that he is going to get trashed with negative ads. Hillary is well defined. It's so bad that Drudge is already bringing back Bill's mistresses. That's all they got.

Yes, Hillary is well defined... like a big bronze plaque on CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS. She's business as usual, mrussel. Business as usual is great if you're a CEO. Business as usual is great if you don't want citizens involved in the political process. Business as usual is great if you think a corporation is a person (have you ever dated one?). Business as usual is great if you don't mind polar ice melting and turning places like New York into a Underwaterworld. Good luck (to all of us) with all of that stuff if Hillary wins. Business as usual.

mrussel1 · March 2016

BrokenGlass said:

The numbers for Hillary create both a ceiling and a floor for her. She is pretty stable. Fortunately, Trump is as well. He is the only one with unsure numbers like Hillary (2 pts higher) And she had a huge head start on Bernie, you're right. Look at the poll averages in the link I provided below. Set the graph for a year and you can see how Bernie has climbed while HRC has consistently hovered in the 50-60% range over the past half year. That's to be expected in a competitive race.

You can interpret the 30% to be positive. I don't draw any conclusions, but it is RISK. You can't underestimate what the term 'Socialist' means to the generation that grew up in the Cold War. It doesn't mean Sweden or Canada. It means Russia. And no group heads to the polls more consistently than older people, with far better turnout than the youth. So again, it is risk to the progressive agenda started again by Obama. That's what worries me.

I don't know when you started voting, but if you're old enough to remember the Swift Boat veterans, you know what can happen to a good man with a good history.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_democratic_presidential_nomination-3824.html

mrussel1 · March 2016

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:
Same question here, mrussel. Why do you spend so much time fighting Bernie here? I'm sincerely curious about this.
Because I'm fighting for objective arguments. I'm sincerely interested in discourse that is grounded in fact and reason. I'm a lifelong Democrat. I've never voted for an R in my life and my first election was 92. And I'm a contributing member of the party. So when I hear people who think Sanders will do better in a general than Hillary, I think that is flawed and I'm going to say so (I'm not saying impossible). When I see the spurious, un-grounded trash about HRC (how about Free accusing her of murdering JFK jr??), I'm going to say something. When I see the fantasy land perspective that he's going to win the nomination when it's literally, maybe 10/90 at best, I'm going to challenge it.

Who would have though that John Kerry's war record would have cost him the election? No one until the Swift Boat Vets. How about the Willie Horton ad for Dukakis? How about the NRA taking down Al Gore in TN in 2000? People who think Bernie is a good guy therefore is going to win the general when he has an "unsure" rating of up to 30% in some polls, tells me that he is going to get trashed with negative ads. Hillary is well defined. It's so bad that Drudge is already bringing back Bill's mistresses. That's all they got.
Yes, Hillary is well defined... like a big bronze plaque on CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS. She's business as usual, mrussel. Business as usual is great if you're a CEO. Business as usual is great if you don't want citizens involved in the political process. Business as usual is great if you think a corporation is a person (have you ever dated one?). Business as usual is great if you don't mind polar ice melting and turning places like New York into a Underwaterworld. Good luck (to all of us) with all of that stuff if Hillary wins. Business as usual.

This is total hyperbole. Where is Hillary anti-global warming, pro Citizens United, anti-choice, anti-Obama Care.
Regardless, I'm not arguing that HRC would be a better president than Bernie. It doesn't matter what I think. Like I said, I'm in VA. My primary is over. But it sounds like your problem is with Obama. That's a different subject all together.

Free · March 2016

Polls. We've seen how reliable and accurate they are.

mrussel1 · March 2016

Free said:
Polls. We've seen how reliable and accurate they are.

You promised not to post to me anymore. I'm disappointed.

brianlux · March 2016

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:

mrussel1 said:

brianlux said:
Same question here, mrussel. Why do you spend so much time fighting Bernie here? I'm sincerely curious about this.
Because I'm fighting for objective arguments. I'm sincerely interested in discourse that is grounded in fact and reason. I'm a lifelong Democrat. I've never voted for an R in my life and my first election was 92. And I'm a contributing member of the party. So when I hear people who think Sanders will do better in a general than Hillary, I think that is flawed and I'm going to say so (I'm not saying impossible). When I see the spurious, un-grounded trash about HRC (how about Free accusing her of murdering JFK jr??), I'm going to say something. When I see the fantasy land perspective that he's going to win the nomination when it's literally, maybe 10/90 at best, I'm going to challenge it.

Who would have though that John Kerry's war record would have cost him the election? No one until the Swift Boat Vets. How about the Willie Horton ad for Dukakis? How about the NRA taking down Al Gore in TN in 2000? People who think Bernie is a good guy therefore is going to win the general when he has an "unsure" rating of up to 30% in some polls, tells me that he is going to get trashed with negative ads. Hillary is well defined. It's so bad that Drudge is already bringing back Bill's mistresses. That's all they got.
Yes, Hillary is well defined... like a big bronze plaque on CORPORATE HEADQUARTERS. She's business as usual, mrussel. Business as usual is great if you're a CEO. Business as usual is great if you don't want citizens involved in the political process. Business as usual is great if you think a corporation is a person (have you ever dated one?). Business as usual is great if you don't mind polar ice melting and turning places like New York into a Underwaterworld. Good luck (to all of us) with all of that stuff if Hillary wins. Business as usual.
This is total hyperbole. Where is Hillary anti-global warming, pro Citizens United, anti-choice, anti-Obama Care.
Regardless, I'm not arguing that HRC would be a better president than Bernie. It doesn't matter what I think. Like I said, I'm in VA. My primary is over. But it sounds like your problem is with Obama. That's a different subject all together.

"Hyperbole." Good word. One of my favorites! But I really don't see where I used hyperbole. A little humorous drama? OK, maybe, but gross exaggeration? I don't think so.

What has she said in terms of significance regarding global warming? Nothing substantial. What about the particular corporations that keep her afloat? How environmentally responsible are they? I'd like to know. Bernie on the other hand has stated that he is very worried about global warming and it's affect on the planet.

"Where is Hillary pro Citizens United, anti-choice, anti-Obama Care?" I didn't say anything about that so not sure where that comes in.

Where did indicate I have a problem with Obama? Generally, Obama has done a decent job. Would have done better without all the Republican obstruction of course.

Bernie Sanders for President

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