Baseball Hall Of Fame.....

Wobbie · January 2013

polaris_x wrote:

imalive wrote:

that's fine but

a) just about everyone, in every walk of life, is looking for an edge. lawyers and politicians (not the most lovable bunch ) "cheat" every fucking day.

b) as unfair as it might be to label someone (piazza) a user, it's just as unfair to assume someone clean (biggio, pujols, griffey, etc)

a) so, fuck the guys that took the high road? ... we're using the everyone's doing it so therefore it must be ok reasoning? ... great lesson to teach kids with ...

b) i agree that if usage is the reason why these folks are being held out then it's hard to know who took and who didn't especially when the cone of silence seems to reward those that maintain it ...

at the end of the day - the baseball HOF is about as meaningful as an oscar or grammy ... it's nice that some players i cheered for were honoured ... but in the end - it won't change what i think of them ... i do know that i would think more highly of any of them - if they spoke the truth ... but that's taking the high road and it seems less and less people really value that anymore ...

a) I get your point, but I just don't like these sanctimonious BBWAs making the call. as my boy barry said "clean out your own closet before you come after me"

for me it's hard to say what is "cheating" and what's not....so many legal things (lasik, atrhroscopy, etc.) today that weren't available before....forget comparing eras...it can't be done. let the dominant guys in...note the PED use/suspicion on their plaques.

davidtrios · August 2013

so if ARod gets a lifetime ban, is he still still eligible for the HOF?

eeriepadave · January 2016

Ken Griffey Jr. and Mike Piazza!

Griifey Jr. received 99.3% of the ballot, breaking Tom Seaver's record!

Wobbie · January 2016

F Me In The Brain · January 2016

Wob, are you upset because juice-head didn't make it again?
KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.

cutz · January 2016

F Me In The Brain said:
Wob, are you upset because juice-head didn't make it again?
KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.

Bonds should be in the HOF, and no, i'm not a big fan of his or his teams.

Poncier · January 2016

F Me In The Brain said:
Wob, are you upset because juice-head didn't make it again?
KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.

But Griffey's career arc is text book steroid user. His home run totals are a near perfect bell curve:
16, 22, 22, 27, 45, 40, 17 (only 72 games), 49, 56, 56, 48, 40, 22, 8, 13, 20, 35, 27, 30, 33, 19 ,0

The outliers are from 1993-2000, height of the steroid era (and when he was teammates with Arod), and his body later began to break down with injuries often related to PED use. Yet nobody ever mentions him as a possible candidate cause he was a nice guy. Went from a 20 something HR guy to a 50 HR guy how? Just started seeing the ball better? Please. He was juicing just like 90% of players in that era.

Cliffy6745 · January 2016

Poncier said:

F Me In The Brain said:
Wob, are you upset because juice-head didn't make it again?
KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.
But Griffey's career arc is text book steroid user. His home run totals are a near perfect bell curve:
16, 22, 22, 27, 45, 40, 17 (only 72 games), 49, 56, 56, 48, 40, 22, 8, 13, 20, 35, 27, 30, 18, 15, 3, 19 ,0

The outliers are from 1993-2000, height of the steroid era (and when he was teammates with Arod), and his body later began to break down with injuries often related to PED use. Yet nobody ever mentions him as a possible candidate cause he was a nice guy. Went from a 20 something HR guy to a 50 HR guy how? Just started seeing the ball better? Please. He was juicing just like 90% of players in that era.

LOVE this. There are a few players that are above suspicion for absolutely no reason, Griffey (and Jeter), being the prime examples.

PJ_ROCKS · January 2016

eeriepadave said:
Ken Griffey Jr. and Mike Piazza!

Griifey Jr. received 99.3% of the ballot, breaking Tom Seaver's record!

F Me In The Brain · January 2016

Have to respectfully disagree. (And he wasn't a nice guy, especially toward the back half of his career he was pretty much a grouchy malcontent) The number drops were more about injuries and then being old. He missed lots of games those years.
Compare to Bonds' numbers and you have a mis-match...although I do not think you were trying to compare the two. (Bonds' only real comparison is Clemens in the "somehow mysteriously get significantly better when older" category.)

I can understand people not liking some players (I cannot stand Bonds) and hating on them but I think there are other reasons why nobody lumps Jr. in with the cheaters....among them the fact that he was asking for testing throughout and openly complained about people amassing numbers while cheating. This doesnt exonerate him but it is sort of the anti-cheater stance. [It also should be pointed out that he was 19, 20, 21, and 22 those first 4 years before the jump you attribute to roids. I think he just grew up. But we can disagree, I recognize your opinion and that we stand on opposite sides. Cool.]

Oh well, I will be happy when he goes into the Hall.

And I do think Barry Bonds is a HoF player --- my comment above was that he would have been one of these 90%+ vote guys if it were not for his size increasing so much as he got older, his hat size going up so much, and the fact that he was such an ass about it when getting caught instead of admitting to what he so obviously was doing.

Cliffy6745 · January 2016

But weren't a lot of his injuries the type of injuries that are consistent with PEDs?

F Me In The Brain · January 2016

Cliffy6745 said:
But weren't a lot of his injuries the type of injuries that are consistent with PEDs?

You could look at it that way (I don't have a list of the injuries but I know some of them were muscle (hamstrings) and knee related....obviously the broken bones are not) but you could also look at it like the pitcher steroid piece and say if he had used roids to recover he could have grown to 2 times his size like Bonds and then not lost the bat speed....which he so obviously lost as career went on.

I am a Jr fan so am admittedly biased, but one of the things I always liked about him was the belief that he was not a roider. That swing....

Cliffy6745 · January 2016

F Me In The Brain said:

Cliffy6745 said:
But weren't a lot of his injuries the type of injuries that are consistent with PEDs?
You could look at it that way (I don't have a list of the injuries but I know some of them were muscle (hamstrings) and knee related....obviously the broken bones are not) but you could also look at it like the pitcher steroid piece and say if he had used roids to recover he could have grown to 2 times his size like Bonds and then not lost the bat speed....which he so obviously lost as career went on.

I am a Jr fan so am admittedly biased, but one of the things I always liked about him was the belief that he was not a roider. That swing....

And listen, I think that's fair. I feel the same way about Jeter. I just don't get how you can keep people out when you literally have no idea who was using and who wasn't. We know that a few players connected with a few trainers/clinics cheated. There are thousands of trainers and clinics that do the same thing. We want to think Jeter and Griffey were clean, but we don't actually know. The fact is that the majority of baseball was cheating for a significant period of time. It was part of the game. Let them all in.

My point was not saying Griffey used PEDs, its just that was shouldn't give him a free pass just because we like the guy.

Jason P · January 2016

I can't believe that let that PED using weirdo in the HOF .... and we have documented proof he was a user!!!

Poncier · January 2016

Ha.
I actually thought of putting that picture at the end of my post.

F Me In The Brain · January 2016

I am also a fan of Jeter and would agree.

I also thought of that scene, lol!

HesCalledDyer · January 2016

PEDs were not banned in MLB until 2005. Up until then, perfectly legal within the MLB rule book. MLB promoted it with McGwire & Sosa in '98. Baseball viewership declined majorly after the '95 strike. They needed something to revive the sport. Let's juice up the players and let the Home Run Era begin!

Everyone needs to get off their high horses like you're all so much better than any of the MLB players who used PEDs. Again, perfectly legal within the rules of the game at the time. But we, the fans, want to act like we're on some moral/ethical podium when it comes to discussing these players. Give it a break. We all find ways to take advantage of our jobs and make our performance look better than it really is.

SPEEDY MCCREADY · January 2016

HesCalledDyer said:
PEDs were not banned in MLB until 2005. Up until then, perfectly legal within the MLB rule book. MLB promoted it with McGwire & Sosa in '98. Baseball viewership declined majorly after the '95 strike. They needed something to revive the sport. Let's juice up the players and let the Home Run Era begin!

Everyone needs to get off their high horses like you're all so much better than any of the MLB players who used PEDs. Again, perfectly legal within the rules of the game at the time. But we, the fans, want to act like we're on some moral/ethical podium when it comes to discussing these players. Give it a break. We all find ways to take advantage of our jobs and make our performance look better than it really is.

Is Lee Smith a HOF'er in your eyes?
Fred McGriff?
Gil Hodges?

Just curious

Cliffy6745 · January 2016

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

HesCalledDyer said:
PEDs were not banned in MLB until 2005. Up until then, perfectly legal within the MLB rule book. MLB promoted it with McGwire & Sosa in '98. Baseball viewership declined majorly after the '95 strike. They needed something to revive the sport. Let's juice up the players and let the Home Run Era begin!

Everyone needs to get off their high horses like you're all so much better than any of the MLB players who used PEDs. Again, perfectly legal within the rules of the game at the time. But we, the fans, want to act like we're on some moral/ethical podium when it comes to discussing these players. Give it a break. We all find ways to take advantage of our jobs and make our performance look better than it really is.
Is Lee Smith a HOF'er in your eyes?
Fred McGriff?
Gil Hodges?

Just curious

I know you didn't ask me, but no to all of the above.

SPEEDY MCCREADY · January 2016

Cliffy6745 said:

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

HesCalledDyer said:
PEDs were not banned in MLB until 2005. Up until then, perfectly legal within the MLB rule book. MLB promoted it with McGwire & Sosa in '98. Baseball viewership declined majorly after the '95 strike. They needed something to revive the sport. Let's juice up the players and let the Home Run Era begin!

Everyone needs to get off their high horses like you're all so much better than any of the MLB players who used PEDs. Again, perfectly legal within the rules of the game at the time. But we, the fans, want to act like we're on some moral/ethical podium when it comes to discussing these players. Give it a break. We all find ways to take advantage of our jobs and make our performance look better than it really is.
Is Lee Smith a HOF'er in your eyes?
Fred McGriff?
Gil Hodges?

Just curious
I know you didn't ask me, but no to all of the above.

When Lee Smith retired he was the career leader in saves...478?
Fred McGriff hit 493 Hr's? In an era when everyone was juicing?
Gil Hodges was the considered by many to be the best 1st baseman of his generation. Right? 8 time all-star, 3 time gold glove winner.

If those 3 don't belong, then there is no way in hell that any of the steroid freaks belong either. In my humble opinion.

Baseball Hall Of Fame.....

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