i must be in the minority ... but fuck all these guys ...
sure, steroids weren't illegal in mlb and a bunch of guys were taking them but steroids were and always were illegal without a prescription ... the thing that irks me most about these guys is that when it came time to come clean ... all these guys to a T pleaded the fifth ... and lied ... none of these guys had the integrity to own up to what they did ... just like lance armstrong ...
so ... all i can say to them is ... oh well ... these are the consequences of your decisions ...
Well said. The roider's do not deserve to be in the hall of fame. The hall of fame is the highest honor a baseball player can recieve. There isn't a damn thing honoroable about cheating. It's disgraceful what they did, and while the certainly reaped the rewards while playing, this is one reward they don't deserve at all.
Alpine Valley 6/26/98, Alpine Valley 10/8/00, Champaign 4/23/03, Chicago 6/18/03, Alpine Valley 6/21/03, Grand Rapids 10/3/04
Chicago 5/16/06, Chicago 5/17/06, Grand Rapids 5/19/06
Milwaukee 6/29/06, Milwaukee 6/30/06, Lollapalooza 8/5/07
Eddie Solo Milwaukee 8/19/08, Toronto 8/21/09, Chicago 8/23/09
Chicago 8/24/09, Indianapolis 5/7/10, Ed Chicago 6/29/11, Alpine Valley 9/3/11 and 9/4/11, Wrigley 7/19/13, Moline 10/18/14, Milwaukee 10/20/14
i must be in the minority ... but fuck all these guys ...
sure, steroids weren't illegal in mlb and a bunch of guys were taking them but steroids were and always were illegal without a prescription ... the thing that irks me most about these guys is that when it came time to come clean ... all these guys to a T pleaded the fifth ... and lied ... none of these guys had the integrity to own up to what they did ... just like lance armstrong ...
so ... all i can say to them is ... oh well ... these are the consequences of your decisions ...
Well said. The roider's do not deserve to be in the hall of fame. The hall of fame is the highest honor a baseball player can recieve. There isn't a damn thing honoroable about cheating. It's disgraceful what they did, and while the certainly reaped the rewards while playing, this is one reward they don't deserve at all.
i must be in the minority ... but fuck all these guys ...
sure, steroids weren't illegal in mlb and a bunch of guys were taking them but steroids were and always were illegal without a prescription ... the thing that irks me most about these guys is that when it came time to come clean ... all these guys to a T pleaded the fifth ... and lied ... none of these guys had the integrity to own up to what they did ... just like lance armstrong ...
so ... all i can say to them is ... oh well ... these are the consequences of your decisions ...
Well said. The roider's do not deserve to be in the hall of fame. The hall of fame is the highest honor a baseball player can recieve. There isn't a damn thing honoroable about cheating. It's disgraceful what they did, and while the certainly reaped the rewards while playing, this is one reward they don't deserve at all.
What about hank Aaron?
I heard he delivered blocks of ice up 5 story buildings day after through out his youth giving him strong wrists.Turn on fast ball strong.
I heard he delivered blocks of ice up 5 story buildings day after through out his youth giving him strong wrists.Turn on fast ball strong.
Maybe, but he used greenies too. And he rails against all the more recent and current players that have used peds. Sounds like a bitter old man that's mad cuz his record got broken.
It'd be more like a Shelf of Fame if they took out all the players that cheated or did other dishonorable things.
Let's start with 2 of the top 5 players ever in Mays and Aaron.
i must be in the minority ... but fuck all these guys ...
sure, steroids weren't illegal in mlb and a bunch of guys were taking them but steroids were and always were illegal without a prescription ... the thing that irks me most about these guys is that when it came time to come clean ... all these guys to a T pleaded the fifth ... and lied ... none of these guys had the integrity to own up to what they did ... just like lance armstrong ...
so ... all i can say to them is ... oh well ... these are the consequences of your decisions ...
Well said. The roider's do not deserve to be in the hall of fame. The hall of fame is the highest honor a baseball player can recieve. There isn't a damn thing honoroable about cheating. It's disgraceful what they did, and while the certainly reaped the rewards while playing, this is one reward they don't deserve at all.
definitely. the major effect of widespread steroid use in sports is the way it infiltrates the perceptions of clean athletes on the part of the public at large. Everyone cheated its said, which is somewhat true, but that ignores the many MLB players, or cyclists or whoever, who despite the pressure, despite their knowing that their teammates, opponents and their bosses were all sympathetic and condoned using, they didnt buckle and they stayed true and clean. During the Steroid era, there were plenty on clean players. Not everyone used. I think people know Bonds is a phony. And they know his stats are essentially meaningless. He shouldnt be allowed in the HOF because 1, he used, and thus his stats are essentially zeros across the board. and 2, because he's done nothing in the past few years to admit to his wrong doing. Whats always bugged me about Bonds, in comparison to some other users, is he just flat out doesnt care. he doesnt care he broke the HR record while using, He doesnt care the effect he had. he doesnt care he essentially spat in Aarons face. and 3, he hasnt ever come out and admitted whats glaringly obvious.
Mcgwire will never be in the HOF, and he's always been a hell of alot more sympathetic and all around nice guy than Bonds. If Mcgwire isnt forgiven, why should Bonds be?
That said, in my view anyone caught with steroids in any sport, should have their entire record cleared completely. Arod, Mcgwire, Bonds, Giambi, Pettit, Clements, Sosa, Palmiero, Sheffield, Knoblacuh etc...
I've waivered on this issue for several years now. At this point I'm in favor of putting players into the Hall of Fame even if they have ties to PED use. It's hard to quantify the advantage these guys got from using steroids and HGH. It's also hard to ignore the fact that amphetamine use was rampant in MLB from the 1960s until at least the mid 2000s. While I believe the steroid users gained a larger advantage than the amphetamine users, I think it's fair to say that both groups were using performance enhancing drugs to some degree.
My view is that the guys who have the numbers should get in, even if it means adjusting the baseline to accommodate the advantages they gained. There should be an educational portion of the Hall which informs future generations that specific guys played during the so called "Steroid Era." It's a shame that the Hall of Fame will not include the all-time home run king, the guy with the most Cy Young awards, the greatest hitting catcher of all time and many other great players from the era who may or may not have used performance enhancing drugs.
I believe a huge portion of the players were using. The problem is, you can't prove any of them weren't cheating. To say that one player was absolutely clean is naive. There is no way of knowing. Just because a guy isn't huge doesn't mean he didn't use. Do I believe that Ken Griffey Jr., Derek Jeter, Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, etc. were clean? Yes. Do I know this for a fact? Absolutely not. Let them all in and link them to the era during which they played.
I wish I was as fortunate, as fortunate as me.
__________________________________________________________
Shameless beer-related plugs:
Instagram/Twitter/Untappd: FtMyersBeerGuy
having a baseball hall of fame without it's all time hits leader, all time home run leader and the guy with the most cy young awards is really silly. sorry it just is. put them in and note their discretions for all future to see.
it really shouldn't be this big of an issue but the BBWA take themselves way too seriously. a guy is either a hall of famer or not, it shouldn't change year to year. i hate that they won't put guys in on the 1st ballot because they like to say he is not a 1st ballot hall of famer.
They have owners in that refused to allow blacks to play. Game. Set. Match. Those of you that need to, please get off that high horse, or be ready to remove 75% of those in the HoF.
Amphetimines were against the law, too. I still don't see how folks are separating the 2.
Barry Bonds is a douche wether he had used steroids or not. His plaque being in a town I visit once every 10 years or so will do nothing to change mine or my kids' lives. But, going there and instead of enjoying myself, but having to explain why the Bonds, Clemens and all the other best players of their young childhood are not included while they are skimming writeups of guys that passed before I, their Dad was born is not happening. I wouldn't even bother going. I'd rather go - yep, steroids, yep, steriods, nope, Derek Jeter than go to a museum that is trying to preach to me.
Now, if you want to keep Palmeiro out b/c no way in hell he gets to the magic number, I'm fully supportive of that. Change the metric. Don't try to play Seargent Friday.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I've waivered on this issue for several years now. At this point I'm in favor of putting players into the Hall of Fame even if they have ties to PED use. It's hard to quantify the advantage these guys got from using steroids and HGH. It's also hard to ignore the fact that amphetamine use was rampant in MLB from the 1960s until at least the mid 2000s. While I believe the steroid users gained a larger advantage than the amphetamine users, I think it's fair to say that both groups were using performance enhancing drugs to some degree.
My view is that the guys who have the numbers should get in, even if it means adjusting the baseline to accommodate the advantages they gained. There should be an educational portion of the Hall which informs future generations that specific guys played during the so called "Steroid Era." It's a shame that the Hall of Fame will not include the all-time home run king, the guy with the most Cy Young awards, the greatest hitting catcher of all time and many other great players from the era who may or may not have used performance enhancing drugs.
I believe a huge portion of the players were using. The problem is, you can't prove any of them weren't cheating. To say that one player was absolutely clean is naive. There is no way of knowing. Just because a guy isn't huge doesn't mean he didn't use. Do I believe that Ken Griffey Jr., Derek Jeter, Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, etc. were clean? Yes. Do I know this for a fact? Absolutely not. Let them all in and link them to the era during which they played.
thats my problem with those who used. They ruined it for everyone else. Whenever a record is broken now, or players currently playing, they all will be looked at skeptically, and many people will believe they used, reguardless of if there is any evidence that they did use. Merely playing during the steroid era essentially makes everyone a suspect. And that sucks for players who never used at all. This past summer I posted on here, about having a discussion with 2 family members and both were certain griffey used steroids. Reguardless of whether you personally think he did, he was never mentioned in any of the reports, he wasnt caught with anything, and everyone views him as a classy guy. The fact that people are positive he used, based on conjecture, illustrate this point. And wasnt it this past summer also that someone accused Jeter of it, without evidence. If it ever came out both were using I think people would flip their wigs.
The accusations in this thread against Aaron are absurd. And the situation is exactly what im discussing. Theres never been a hint or a whiff of cheating or using blown in his direction. He's being suspected because alot of people during his era also used apparently. So, the cheaters, again, ruin everything for everyone.
Nobody was happier about the Hall of Fame shutout than the Hall of Famers themselves.
Goose Gossage, Al Kaline, Dennis Eckersley and others are in no rush to open the door to Cooperstown for anyone linked to steroids.
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa: Keep `em all out of our club.
''If they let these guys in ever - at any point - it's a big black eye for the Hall and for baseball,'' Gossage said in a phone interview with The Associated Press. ''It's like telling our kids you can cheat, you can do whatever you want, and it's not going to matter.''
For only the second time in 42 years, baseball writers failed to elect anyone to the Hall of Fame on Wednesday, sending a firm signal that stars of the Steroids Era will be held to a different standard.
All the awards and accomplishments collected over storied careers by Bonds, Clemens and Sosa - all eligible for the first time - could not offset suspicions those exploits were artificially boosted by performance-enhancing drugs.
''I'm kind of glad that nobody got in this year,'' Kaline said. ''I feel honored to be in the Hall of Fame. And I would've felt a little uneasy sitting up there on the stage, listening to some of these new guys talk about how great they were.''
Gossage went even further. ''I think the steroids guys that are under suspicion got too many votes,'' he said. ''I don't know why they're making this such a question and why there's so much debate. To me, they cheated. Are we going to reward these guys?''
Not this year, at least.
Bonds received just 36.2 percent of the vote and Clemens 37.6 in totals announced by the Hall and the Baseball Writers' Association of America, both well short of the 75 percent needed for election - yet still too close for Gossage's taste. Sosa, eighth on the career home run list, got 12.5 percent.
''Wow! Baseball writers make a statement,'' Eckersley wrote on Twitter. ''Feels right.''
The results keep the sport's career home run leader (Bonds) and most decorated pitcher (Clemens) out of Cooperstown - for now. Bonds, Clemens and Sosa have up to 14 more years on the writers' ballot to gain baseball's highest honor.
Bonds, baseball's only seven-time MVP, hit 762 home runs - including a record 73 in 2001. He has denied knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs and was convicted of one count of obstruction of justice for giving an evasive answer in 2003 to a grand jury investigating PEDs.
Clemens, the game's lone seven-time Cy Young Award winner, is third in career strikeouts (4,672) and ninth in wins (354). He was acquitted of perjury charges stemming from congressional testimony during which he denied using PEDs.
Ken Rosenthal says it's actually a good thing that nobody was voted into the HOF this year.
''If you don't think Roger Clemens cheated, you're burying your head in the sand,'' Gossage said.
Sosa, who finished with 609 home runs, was among those who tested positive in MLB's 2003 anonymous survey, The New York Times reported in 2009. He told a congressional committee in 2005 that he never took illegal performance-enhancing drugs. He also was caught using a corked bat during his career.
''What really gets me is seeing how some of these players associated with drugs have jumped over many of the greats in our game,'' Kaline said. ''Numbers mean a lot in baseball, maybe more so than in any other sport. And going back to Babe Ruth, and players like Harmon Killebrew and Frank Robinson and Willie Mays, seeing people jump over them with 600, 700 home runs, I don't like to see that.
''I don't know how great some of these players up for election would've been without drugs. But to me, it's cheating,'' he added. ''Numbers are important, but so is integrity and character. Some of these guys might get in someday. But for a year or two, I'm glad they didn't.''
Gossage, noting that cyclist Lance Armstrong was stripped of his seven Tour de France titles following allegations that he used performance-enhancing drugs, believes baseball should go just as far. He thinks the record book should be overhauled, taking away the accomplishments of players like Bonds, Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro and Mark McGwire - who has admitted using steroids and human growth hormone during his playing days.
McGwire, 10th on the career home run chart, received 16.9 percent of the vote on his seventh Hall try, down from 19.5 last year.
''I don't know if baseball knows how to deal with this at all,'' Gossage said. ''Why don't they strip these guys of all these numbers? You've got to suffer the consequences. You get caught cheating on a test, you get expelled from school.''
Juan Marichal is one Hall of Famer who doesn't see it that way. The former pitcher believes Bonds, Clemens and Sosa belong in Cooperstown.
''I think that they have been unfair to guys who were never found guilty of anything,'' Marichal said. ''Their stats define them as immortals. That's the reality and that cannot be denied.''
The BBWAA election rules say ''voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.''
While much of the focus this year was on Bonds, Clemens and Sosa, every other player with Cooperstown credentials was denied, too.
Craig Biggio, 20th on the career list with 3,060 hits, came the closest. He was chosen on 68.2 percent of the 569 ballots, 39 shy of election. Among other first-year eligibles, Mike Piazza received 57.8 percent and Curt Schilling 38.8. Jack Morris topped holdovers with 67.7 percent.
None of those players have been publicly linked to PED use, so it's difficult to determine whether they fell short due to suspicion, their stats - or the overall stench of the era they played in.
''What we're witnessing here is innocent people paying for the sinners,'' Marichal said.
Hall of Fame slugger Mike Schmidt said that comes with the territory.
''It's not news that Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, and McGwire didn't get in, but that they received hardly any consideration at all. The real news is that Biggio and Piazza were well under the 75 percent needed,'' Schmidt wrote in an email to the AP.
''Curt Schilling made a good point. Everyone was guilty. Either you used PEDs, or you did nothing to stop their use. This generation got rich. Seems there was a price to pay.''
At ceremonies in Cooperstown on July 28, the only inductees will be three men who died more than 70 years ago: Yankees owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O'Day and barehanded catcher Deacon White. They were chosen last month by the 16-member panel considering individuals from the era before integration in 1947.
I heard he delivered blocks of ice up 5 story buildings day after through out his youth giving him strong wrists.Turn on fast ball strong.
Maybe, but he used greenies too. And he rails against all the more recent and current players that have used peds. Sounds like a bitter old man that's mad cuz his record got broken.
actually, I've never hear hank "rail" against anyone.
I think it's the sanctimonious and hypocritical writers who try to make you believe that.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Yeah, except for the little fact that he has admitted to taking/trying greenies.
What about Mike Schmidt?
+1
What I found is he claims to have tried them once and they made him jittery, but I don't buy that any more than I do the players that claim to have taken steroids and didn't see any results so they stopped. Even if he did actually on try them once it shows that he was willing to go to illegal links to gain an advantage.
Yeah, except for the little fact that he has admitted to taking/trying greenies.
What about Mike Schmidt?
+1
What I found is he claims to have tried them once and they made him jittery, but I don't buy that any more than I do the players that claim to have taken steroids and didn't see any results so they stopped. Even if he did actually on try them once it shows that he was willing to go to illegal links to gain an advantage.
OK...he wants stiffer penalties....he never actually "railed" against Bonds...in ESPN Magazine a few years back, he was actually quite circumspect when it came to bonds.
and here's something that really pisses me off...."sure fire hall of famers" larussa and torre....so it's OK to build teams of users but you can't actually be a user.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
a) just about everyone, in every walk of life, is looking for an edge. lawyers and politicians (not the most lovable bunch ) "cheat" every fucking day.
b) as unfair as it might be to label someone (piazza) a user, it's just as unfair to assume someone clean (biggio, pujols, griffey, etc)
a) so, fuck the guys that took the high road? ... we're using the everyone's doing it so therefore it must be ok reasoning? ... great lesson to teach kids with ...
b) i agree that if usage is the reason why these folks are being held out then it's hard to know who took and who didn't especially when the cone of silence seems to reward those that maintain it ...
at the end of the day - the baseball HOF is about as meaningful as an oscar or grammy ... it's nice that some players i cheered for were honoured ... but in the end - it won't change what i think of them ... i do know that i would think more highly of any of them - if they spoke the truth ... but that's taking the high road and it seems less and less people really value that anymore ...
a) just about everyone, in every walk of life, is looking for an edge. lawyers and politicians (not the most lovable bunch ) "cheat" every fucking day.
b) as unfair as it might be to label someone (piazza) a user, it's just as unfair to assume someone clean (biggio, pujols, griffey, etc)
a) so, fuck the guys that took the high road? ... we're using the everyone's doing it so therefore it must be ok reasoning? ... great lesson to teach kids with ...
b) i agree that if usage is the reason why these folks are being held out then it's hard to know who took and who didn't especially when the cone of silence seems to reward those that maintain it ...
at the end of the day - the baseball HOF is about as meaningful as an oscar or grammy ... it's nice that some players i cheered for were honoured ... but in the end - it won't change what i think of them ... i do know that i would think more highly of any of them - if they spoke the truth ... but that's taking the high road and it seems less and less people really value that anymore ...
a) I get your point, but I just don't like these sanctimonious BBWAs making the call. as my boy barry said "clean out your own closet before you come after me"
for me it's hard to say what is "cheating" and what's not....so many legal things (lasik, atrhroscopy, etc.) today that weren't available before....forget comparing eras...it can't be done. let the dominant guys in...note the PED use/suspicion on their plaques.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Griifey Jr. received 99.3% of the ballot, breaking Tom Seaver's record!
8/28/98- Camden, NJ
10/31/09- Philly
5/21/10- NYC
9/2/12- Philly, PA
7/19/13- Wrigley
10/19/13- Brooklyn, NY
10/21/13- Philly, PA
10/22/13- Philly, PA
10/27/13- Baltimore, MD
4/28/16- Philly, PA
4/29/16- Philly, PA
5/1/16- NYC
5/2/16- NYC
9/2/18- Boston, MA
9/4/18- Boston, MA
9/14/22- Camden, NJ
9/7/24- Philly, PA
9/9/24- Philly, PA
Tres Mts.- 3/23/11- Philly. PA
Eddie Vedder- 6/25/11- Philly, PA
RNDM- 3/9/16- Philly, PA
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Wob, are you upset because juice-head didn't make it again? KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.
Wob, are you upset because juice-head didn't make it again? KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.
Bonds should be in the HOF, and no, i'm not a big fan of his or his teams.
Wob, are you upset because juice-head didn't make it again? KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.
But Griffey's career arc is text book steroid user. His home run totals are a near perfect bell curve: 16, 22, 22, 27, 45, 40, 17 (only 72 games), 49, 56, 56, 48, 40, 22, 8, 13, 20, 35, 27, 30, 33, 19 ,0
The outliers are from 1993-2000, height of the steroid era (and when he was teammates with Arod), and his body later began to break down with injuries often related to PED use. Yet nobody ever mentions him as a possible candidate cause he was a nice guy. Went from a 20 something HR guy to a 50 HR guy how? Just started seeing the ball better? Please. He was juicing just like 90% of players in that era.
Wob, are you upset because juice-head didn't make it again? KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.
But Griffey's career arc is text book steroid user. His home run totals are a near perfect bell curve: 16, 22, 22, 27, 45, 40, 17 (only 72 games), 49, 56, 56, 48, 40, 22, 8, 13, 20, 35, 27, 30, 18, 15, 3, 19 ,0
The outliers are from 1993-2000, height of the steroid era (and when he was teammates with Arod), and his body later began to break down with injuries often related to PED use. Yet nobody ever mentions him as a possible candidate cause he was a nice guy. Went from a 20 something HR guy to a 50 HR guy how? Just started seeing the ball better? Please. He was juicing just like 90% of players in that era.
LOVE this. There are a few players that are above suspicion for absolutely no reason, Griffey (and Jeter), being the prime examples.
Have to respectfully disagree. (And he wasn't a nice guy, especially toward the back half of his career he was pretty much a grouchy malcontent) The number drops were more about injuries and then being old. He missed lots of games those years. Compare to Bonds' numbers and you have a mis-match...although I do not think you were trying to compare the two. (Bonds' only real comparison is Clemens in the "somehow mysteriously get significantly better when older" category.)
I can understand people not liking some players (I cannot stand Bonds) and hating on them but I think there are other reasons why nobody lumps Jr. in with the cheaters....among them the fact that he was asking for testing throughout and openly complained about people amassing numbers while cheating. This doesnt exonerate him but it is sort of the anti-cheater stance. [It also should be pointed out that he was 19, 20, 21, and 22 those first 4 years before the jump you attribute to roids. I think he just grew up. But we can disagree, I recognize your opinion and that we stand on opposite sides. Cool.]
Oh well, I will be happy when he goes into the Hall.
And I do think Barry Bonds is a HoF player --- my comment above was that he would have been one of these 90%+ vote guys if it were not for his size increasing so much as he got older, his hat size going up so much, and the fact that he was such an ass about it when getting caught instead of admitting to what he so obviously was doing.
Comments
Well said. The roider's do not deserve to be in the hall of fame. The hall of fame is the highest honor a baseball player can recieve. There isn't a damn thing honoroable about cheating. It's disgraceful what they did, and while the certainly reaped the rewards while playing, this is one reward they don't deserve at all.
Chicago 5/16/06, Chicago 5/17/06, Grand Rapids 5/19/06
Milwaukee 6/29/06, Milwaukee 6/30/06, Lollapalooza 8/5/07
Eddie Solo Milwaukee 8/19/08, Toronto 8/21/09, Chicago 8/23/09
Chicago 8/24/09, Indianapolis 5/7/10, Ed Chicago 6/29/11, Alpine Valley 9/3/11 and 9/4/11, Wrigley 7/19/13, Moline 10/18/14, Milwaukee 10/20/14
What about hank Aaron?
I heard he delivered blocks of ice up 5 story buildings day after through out his youth giving him strong wrists.Turn on fast ball strong.
Maybe, but he used greenies too. And he rails against all the more recent and current players that have used peds. Sounds like a bitter old man that's mad cuz his record got broken.
It'd be more like a Shelf of Fame if they took out all the players that cheated or did other dishonorable things.
Let's start with 2 of the top 5 players ever in Mays and Aaron.
definitely. the major effect of widespread steroid use in sports is the way it infiltrates the perceptions of clean athletes on the part of the public at large. Everyone cheated its said, which is somewhat true, but that ignores the many MLB players, or cyclists or whoever, who despite the pressure, despite their knowing that their teammates, opponents and their bosses were all sympathetic and condoned using, they didnt buckle and they stayed true and clean. During the Steroid era, there were plenty on clean players. Not everyone used. I think people know Bonds is a phony. And they know his stats are essentially meaningless. He shouldnt be allowed in the HOF because 1, he used, and thus his stats are essentially zeros across the board. and 2, because he's done nothing in the past few years to admit to his wrong doing. Whats always bugged me about Bonds, in comparison to some other users, is he just flat out doesnt care. he doesnt care he broke the HR record while using, He doesnt care the effect he had. he doesnt care he essentially spat in Aarons face. and 3, he hasnt ever come out and admitted whats glaringly obvious.
Mcgwire will never be in the HOF, and he's always been a hell of alot more sympathetic and all around nice guy than Bonds. If Mcgwire isnt forgiven, why should Bonds be?
That said, in my view anyone caught with steroids in any sport, should have their entire record cleared completely. Arod, Mcgwire, Bonds, Giambi, Pettit, Clements, Sosa, Palmiero, Sheffield, Knoblacuh etc...
My view is that the guys who have the numbers should get in, even if it means adjusting the baseline to accommodate the advantages they gained. There should be an educational portion of the Hall which informs future generations that specific guys played during the so called "Steroid Era." It's a shame that the Hall of Fame will not include the all-time home run king, the guy with the most Cy Young awards, the greatest hitting catcher of all time and many other great players from the era who may or may not have used performance enhancing drugs.
I believe a huge portion of the players were using. The problem is, you can't prove any of them weren't cheating. To say that one player was absolutely clean is naive. There is no way of knowing. Just because a guy isn't huge doesn't mean he didn't use. Do I believe that Ken Griffey Jr., Derek Jeter, Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, etc. were clean? Yes. Do I know this for a fact? Absolutely not. Let them all in and link them to the era during which they played.
__________________________________________________________
Shameless beer-related plugs:
Instagram/Twitter/Untappd: FtMyersBeerGuy
it really shouldn't be this big of an issue but the BBWA take themselves way too seriously. a guy is either a hall of famer or not, it shouldn't change year to year. i hate that they won't put guys in on the 1st ballot because they like to say he is not a 1st ballot hall of famer.
Amphetimines were against the law, too. I still don't see how folks are separating the 2.
Barry Bonds is a douche wether he had used steroids or not. His plaque being in a town I visit once every 10 years or so will do nothing to change mine or my kids' lives. But, going there and instead of enjoying myself, but having to explain why the Bonds, Clemens and all the other best players of their young childhood are not included while they are skimming writeups of guys that passed before I, their Dad was born is not happening. I wouldn't even bother going. I'd rather go - yep, steroids, yep, steriods, nope, Derek Jeter than go to a museum that is trying to preach to me.
Now, if you want to keep Palmeiro out b/c no way in hell he gets to the magic number, I'm fully supportive of that. Change the metric. Don't try to play Seargent Friday.
thats my problem with those who used. They ruined it for everyone else. Whenever a record is broken now, or players currently playing, they all will be looked at skeptically, and many people will believe they used, reguardless of if there is any evidence that they did use. Merely playing during the steroid era essentially makes everyone a suspect. And that sucks for players who never used at all. This past summer I posted on here, about having a discussion with 2 family members and both were certain griffey used steroids. Reguardless of whether you personally think he did, he was never mentioned in any of the reports, he wasnt caught with anything, and everyone views him as a classy guy. The fact that people are positive he used, based on conjecture, illustrate this point. And wasnt it this past summer also that someone accused Jeter of it, without evidence. If it ever came out both were using I think people would flip their wigs.
The accusations in this thread against Aaron are absurd. And the situation is exactly what im discussing. Theres never been a hint or a whiff of cheating or using blown in his direction. He's being suspected because alot of people during his era also used apparently. So, the cheaters, again, ruin everything for everyone.
I dont think Aaron used.
HOFers happy Bonds, Clemens denied
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/hall ... ied-010913
Nobody was happier about the Hall of Fame shutout than the Hall of Famers themselves.
Goose Gossage, Al Kaline, Dennis Eckersley and others are in no rush to open the door to Cooperstown for anyone linked to steroids.
Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa: Keep `em all out of our club.
''If they let these guys in ever - at any point - it's a big black eye for the Hall and for baseball,'' Gossage said in a phone interview with The Associated Press. ''It's like telling our kids you can cheat, you can do whatever you want, and it's not going to matter.''
For only the second time in 42 years, baseball writers failed to elect anyone to the Hall of Fame on Wednesday, sending a firm signal that stars of the Steroids Era will be held to a different standard.
All the awards and accomplishments collected over storied careers by Bonds, Clemens and Sosa - all eligible for the first time - could not offset suspicions those exploits were artificially boosted by performance-enhancing drugs.
''I'm kind of glad that nobody got in this year,'' Kaline said. ''I feel honored to be in the Hall of Fame. And I would've felt a little uneasy sitting up there on the stage, listening to some of these new guys talk about how great they were.''
Gossage went even further. ''I think the steroids guys that are under suspicion got too many votes,'' he said. ''I don't know why they're making this such a question and why there's so much debate. To me, they cheated. Are we going to reward these guys?''
Not this year, at least.
Bonds received just 36.2 percent of the vote and Clemens 37.6 in totals announced by the Hall and the Baseball Writers' Association of America, both well short of the 75 percent needed for election - yet still too close for Gossage's taste. Sosa, eighth on the career home run list, got 12.5 percent.
''Wow! Baseball writers make a statement,'' Eckersley wrote on Twitter. ''Feels right.''
The results keep the sport's career home run leader (Bonds) and most decorated pitcher (Clemens) out of Cooperstown - for now. Bonds, Clemens and Sosa have up to 14 more years on the writers' ballot to gain baseball's highest honor.
Bonds, baseball's only seven-time MVP, hit 762 home runs - including a record 73 in 2001. He has denied knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs and was convicted of one count of obstruction of justice for giving an evasive answer in 2003 to a grand jury investigating PEDs.
Clemens, the game's lone seven-time Cy Young Award winner, is third in career strikeouts (4,672) and ninth in wins (354). He was acquitted of perjury charges stemming from congressional testimony during which he denied using PEDs.
Ken Rosenthal says it's actually a good thing that nobody was voted into the HOF this year.
''If you don't think Roger Clemens cheated, you're burying your head in the sand,'' Gossage said.
Sosa, who finished with 609 home runs, was among those who tested positive in MLB's 2003 anonymous survey, The New York Times reported in 2009. He told a congressional committee in 2005 that he never took illegal performance-enhancing drugs. He also was caught using a corked bat during his career.
''What really gets me is seeing how some of these players associated with drugs have jumped over many of the greats in our game,'' Kaline said. ''Numbers mean a lot in baseball, maybe more so than in any other sport. And going back to Babe Ruth, and players like Harmon Killebrew and Frank Robinson and Willie Mays, seeing people jump over them with 600, 700 home runs, I don't like to see that.
''I don't know how great some of these players up for election would've been without drugs. But to me, it's cheating,'' he added. ''Numbers are important, but so is integrity and character. Some of these guys might get in someday. But for a year or two, I'm glad they didn't.''
Gossage, noting that cyclist Lance Armstrong was stripped of his seven Tour de France titles following allegations that he used performance-enhancing drugs, believes baseball should go just as far. He thinks the record book should be overhauled, taking away the accomplishments of players like Bonds, Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro and Mark McGwire - who has admitted using steroids and human growth hormone during his playing days.
McGwire, 10th on the career home run chart, received 16.9 percent of the vote on his seventh Hall try, down from 19.5 last year.
''I don't know if baseball knows how to deal with this at all,'' Gossage said. ''Why don't they strip these guys of all these numbers? You've got to suffer the consequences. You get caught cheating on a test, you get expelled from school.''
Juan Marichal is one Hall of Famer who doesn't see it that way. The former pitcher believes Bonds, Clemens and Sosa belong in Cooperstown.
''I think that they have been unfair to guys who were never found guilty of anything,'' Marichal said. ''Their stats define them as immortals. That's the reality and that cannot be denied.''
The BBWAA election rules say ''voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.''
While much of the focus this year was on Bonds, Clemens and Sosa, every other player with Cooperstown credentials was denied, too.
Craig Biggio, 20th on the career list with 3,060 hits, came the closest. He was chosen on 68.2 percent of the 569 ballots, 39 shy of election. Among other first-year eligibles, Mike Piazza received 57.8 percent and Curt Schilling 38.8. Jack Morris topped holdovers with 67.7 percent.
None of those players have been publicly linked to PED use, so it's difficult to determine whether they fell short due to suspicion, their stats - or the overall stench of the era they played in.
''What we're witnessing here is innocent people paying for the sinners,'' Marichal said.
Hall of Fame slugger Mike Schmidt said that comes with the territory.
''It's not news that Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Palmeiro, and McGwire didn't get in, but that they received hardly any consideration at all. The real news is that Biggio and Piazza were well under the 75 percent needed,'' Schmidt wrote in an email to the AP.
''Curt Schilling made a good point. Everyone was guilty. Either you used PEDs, or you did nothing to stop their use. This generation got rich. Seems there was a price to pay.''
At ceremonies in Cooperstown on July 28, the only inductees will be three men who died more than 70 years ago: Yankees owner Jacob Ruppert, umpire Hank O'Day and barehanded catcher Deacon White. They were chosen last month by the 16-member panel considering individuals from the era before integration in 1947.
actually, I've never hear hank "rail" against anyone.
I think it's the sanctimonious and hypocritical writers who try to make you believe that.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Yeah, except for the little fact that he has admitted to taking/trying greenies.
What about Mike Schmidt?
+1
What I found is he claims to have tried them once and they made him jittery, but I don't buy that any more than I do the players that claim to have taken steroids and didn't see any results so they stopped. Even if he did actually on try them once it shows that he was willing to go to illegal links to gain an advantage.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2 ... -rodriguez\
Bingo
OK...he wants stiffer penalties....he never actually "railed" against Bonds...in ESPN Magazine a few years back, he was actually quite circumspect when it came to bonds.
and here's something that really pisses me off...."sure fire hall of famers" larussa and torre....so it's OK to build teams of users but you can't actually be a user.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Also, #blameJayCutler for A. Sele receiving one baseball hall of fame vote.
a) so, fuck the guys that took the high road? ... we're using the everyone's doing it so therefore it must be ok reasoning? ... great lesson to teach kids with ...
b) i agree that if usage is the reason why these folks are being held out then it's hard to know who took and who didn't especially when the cone of silence seems to reward those that maintain it ...
at the end of the day - the baseball HOF is about as meaningful as an oscar or grammy ... it's nice that some players i cheered for were honoured ... but in the end - it won't change what i think of them ... i do know that i would think more highly of any of them - if they spoke the truth ... but that's taking the high road and it seems less and less people really value that anymore ...
a) I get your point, but I just don't like these sanctimonious BBWAs making the call. as my boy barry said "clean out your own closet before you come after me"
for me it's hard to say what is "cheating" and what's not....so many legal things (lasik, atrhroscopy, etc.) today that weren't available before....forget comparing eras...it can't be done. let the dominant guys in...note the PED use/suspicion on their plaques.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Griifey Jr. received 99.3% of the ballot, breaking Tom Seaver's record!
10/31/09- Philly
5/21/10- NYC
9/2/12- Philly, PA
7/19/13- Wrigley
10/19/13- Brooklyn, NY
10/21/13- Philly, PA
10/22/13- Philly, PA
10/27/13- Baltimore, MD
4/28/16- Philly, PA
4/29/16- Philly, PA
5/1/16- NYC
5/2/16- NYC
9/2/18- Boston, MA
9/4/18- Boston, MA
9/14/22- Camden, NJ
9/7/24- Philly, PA
9/9/24- Philly, PA
Eddie Vedder- 6/25/11- Philly, PA
RNDM- 3/9/16- Philly, PA
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
KG w/99.3% shows what people think...Bonds would have had an easy 90+% on his first ballot if he had not juiced it up.
16, 22, 22, 27, 45, 40, 17 (only 72 games), 49, 56, 56, 48, 40, 22, 8, 13, 20, 35, 27, 30, 33, 19 ,0
The outliers are from 1993-2000, height of the steroid era (and when he was teammates with Arod), and his body later began to break down with injuries often related to PED use. Yet nobody ever mentions him as a possible candidate cause he was a nice guy. Went from a 20 something HR guy to a 50 HR guy how? Just started seeing the ball better? Please. He was juicing just like 90% of players in that era.
1995 San Francisco
San Jose
San Diego 2 shows
2003 Missoula
2005 Missoula
2006 Denver 2 shows with Tom Petty
Gorge 2 shows
2009 Utah
LA1
LA2
2012 Missoula : Meet and Greet : "Instant Classic show"
2013 Portland
Spokane
2018 Missoula
Compare to Bonds' numbers and you have a mis-match...although I do not think you were trying to compare the two. (Bonds' only real comparison is Clemens in the "somehow mysteriously get significantly better when older" category.)
I can understand people not liking some players (I cannot stand Bonds) and hating on them but I think there are other reasons why nobody lumps Jr. in with the cheaters....among them the fact that he was asking for testing throughout and openly complained about people amassing numbers while cheating. This doesnt exonerate him but it is sort of the anti-cheater stance. [It also should be pointed out that he was 19, 20, 21, and 22 those first 4 years before the jump you attribute to roids. I think he just grew up. But we can disagree, I recognize your opinion and that we stand on opposite sides. Cool.]
Oh well, I will be happy when he goes into the Hall.
And I do think Barry Bonds is a HoF player --- my comment above was that he would have been one of these 90%+ vote guys if it were not for his size increasing so much as he got older, his hat size going up so much, and the fact that he was such an ass about it when getting caught instead of admitting to what he so obviously was doing.