Meanwhile back in Israel

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

yosi said:

I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?

Waiting, watching the clock......

Still Here

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

yosi said:

I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?

Waiting, watching the clock......

Still Here

Taps fingers on the table.

anxiously waiting a reply.

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

yosi said:

I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?

Waiting, watching the clock......

Still Here

Taps fingers on the table.

anxiously waiting a reply.

I was waiting to see if Yosi would respond to this, as it was a question addressed to him. The Gregorian calendar (including statutory holidays) is based off of Christianity. As a Jew, I still get days off for Christmas and New Year's Day, not Passover. In Israel, I would expect that national holidays would be aligned with Jewish holidays as well, and that it would become all but commonplace to pay Muslims on Islamic holidays (just as I've actually never had issues with employers in Canada paying me on Jewish holidays if I need to be with my family).

Yosi - I do have a question as well. The synagogue in Israel defines the immigration policy, inasmuch as it gives preference to a religious affiliation - this for a state with so much historical and religious significance to those of the Islamic and Christian faiths, not to mention those who (and let's not bother with details for the purpose of this conversation) once lived on this land, and now don't. Is a population demographic not a state affair? When the synagogue is responsible for that, how could Israel ever exist with a strict separation of synagogue and state?

Not to mention - when your population is demographically skewed by an unfair immigration policy, that trickles down to other policies, as a predominantly Jewish population will vote on topics in ways that work out advantageously towards predominantly Jews.

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

Report by Amnesty International on Hamas actions against its own people during last year's war.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/11631865/Amnesty-International-report-details-spine-chilling-Hamas-killings-and-torture.html

You can be for a free Palestine and be against Hamas at the same time.

or you can be a lost cause like yourself.

Why you embrace Hamas over the moderate Palestinian factions makes zero sense too me? Maybe one day you can explain it to us.

I have to explain shit to you? I embrace Hamas now? Really? You support a fucken regime hell bent on killing all the civilians in Palestine and take all of their land. Who's killed more innocent people BS, Hamas or the regime of Israel? Serious question.

From what I understand you support the Hamas faction over Fatah. If I am wrong please correct me. In the past you had no problem with Hamas's killing of Fatah members as mentioned in the Amnesty International report.

Now personally I do not support "a fucken regime hell bent on killing all the civilians in Palestine and take all of their land." That regime doesn't exist and never has. If it did I certainly would not support it.

Now as far as who has killed more "innocent people" Hamas or Israel? Not sure I have all the metrics but my guess is probably Israel. That's not for Hamas's lack of trying but it's kind of what they do isn't it? They shoot poorly targeted rockets at innocents from a school or from a residential building (according to amnesty international) and when fire is returned they parade their martyrs around for the benefit of the international community. Hamas essentially uses their own citizens as death pawns. Fatah was against the war for that reason. Hamas crushed their own internal dissenters. You were ok with that.

Oh you most def support a killing machine in that regime. Stop being a pussy and "OWN IT"

See you don't even answer the hamas/fatah question. You just throw mud.

Now take a deep breath and say Israel is not "a fucken regime hell bent on killing all the civilians in Palestine and take all of their land." You might not like Israel, you might absolutely disagree with their policies, but you know that statement isn't true. Take a deep breath and say it. You will be ok. Babysteps.

benjs said:

benjs said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

yosi said:

I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?

Waiting, watching the clock......

Still Here

Taps fingers on the table.

anxiously waiting a reply.

I was waiting to see if Yosi would respond to this, as it was a question addressed to him. The Gregorian calendar (including statutory holidays) is based off of Christianity. As a Jew, I still get days off for Christmas and New Year's Day, not Passover. In Israel, I would expect that national holidays would be aligned with Jewish holidays as well, and that it would become all but commonplace to pay Muslims on Islamic holidays (just as I've actually never had issues with employers in Canada paying me on Jewish holidays if I need to be with my family).

Yosi - I do have a question as well. The synagogue in Israel defines the immigration policy, inasmuch as it gives preference to a religious affiliation - this for a state with so much historical and religious significance to those of the Islamic and Christian faiths, not to mention those who (and let's not bother with details for the purpose of this conversation) once lived on this land, and now don't. Is a population demographic not a state affair? When the synagogue is responsible for that, how could Israel ever exist with a strict separation of synagogue and state?

Not to mention - when your population is demographically skewed by an unfair immigration policy, that trickles down to other policies, as a predominantly Jewish population will vote on topics in ways that work out advantageously towards predominantly Jews.

Yosi - I'm still curious about the synagogue-state separation and how it'd work in Israel (as quoted above).

BS - you have said here a number of times that you can be against Hamas and for a free Palestine, completely unprovoked, as if anyone here is saying that at all. It has been months since anyone has said anything here that could even possibly be thought of (and would've then been misunderstood) as pro-Hamas. Can you answer me honestly, what your point is of reviving this notion time after time again?

Sure. As I've said before Hamas is rejectionist. They poison the well. Islamist and anti-semitic to the core and as per the Amnesty International report they are brutal to their own people. They seek not only the complete annihilation of Israel but of jews as well. They are not a partner for peace and as long as they are destroying the moderate Palestinian factions peace will never come. People on here seem to think that last summer's war was about Israel and Palestine but that is not exactly true. What it really was about was Hamas trying to establish itself as the true palestinian powerbroker at the expense of both the Palestinian Authority and it's own people. This can and should be resisted by all those who want peace.

benjs said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

mickeyrat said:

yosi said:

I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?

Waiting, watching the clock......

Still Here

Taps fingers on the table.

anxiously waiting a reply.

I was waiting to see if Yosi would respond to this, as it was a question addressed to him. The Gregorian calendar (including statutory holidays) is based off of Christianity. As a Jew, I still get days off for Christmas and New Year's Day, not Passover. In Israel, I would expect that national holidays would be aligned with Jewish holidays as well, and that it would become all but commonplace to pay Muslims on Islamic holidays (just as I've actually never had issues with employers in Canada paying me on Jewish holidays if I need to be with my family).

Yosi - I do have a question as well. The synagogue in Israel defines the immigration policy, inasmuch as it gives preference to a religious affiliation - this for a state with so much historical and religious significance to those of the Islamic and Christian faiths, not to mention those who (and let's not bother with details for the purpose of this conversation) once lived on this land, and now don't. Is a population demographic not a state affair? When the synagogue is responsible for that, how could Israel ever exist with a strict separation of synagogue and state?

Not to mention - when your population is demographically skewed by an unfair immigration policy, that trickles down to other policies, as a predominantly Jewish population will vote on topics in ways that work out advantageously towards predominantly Jews.

Sorry, work got busy. Benjs, you're right about immigration. That's the one area where a separation of synagogue and state gets tricky. I take it as a given that Israel won't get rid of the law of return, at least not entirely. Many countries have preferential immigration laws that favor their "national diasporas," so if we accept that Israel is the Jewish state I see nothing inherantly unfair about such a law. That said, I don't think that the law should grant Jews immediate automatic citizenship simply because they move to Israel, unless they are immigrating to escape persecution, which is a circumstance that speaks directly to one of the state's core functions of providing a place of refuge for the Jewish people. Economic immigrants, on the other hand, should all go into the same pot, with no special preferences for Jews.

Now, clearly the above requires some sort of criteria for determining Jewishness. I don't think that this should be a strictly religious criteria that excludes secular Jews. On the other hand, conversion is clearly one way of joining the Jewish people. And yet, Israel should recognize all denominations of Judaism equally (there's a big issue today with the Orthodox control of the Israeli rabbinate, which refuses to recognize non-orthodox conversions, which in turn has immigration consequences). It's a thorny question, but probably the answer is something along the lines of a pluralistic recognition of all types of Jewish conversion and/or some (necessarily arbitrary) hereditary standard (pretty sure they currently use one Jewish grandparent) AND (and I think this is key) some sort of demonstrable connection with the Jewish people (which would serve to exclude Jews by birth who "opt out" by converting to some other faith).

As for the majority voting in ways that favor itself, that is the essence of democracy, and is entirely legitimate so long as there are protections in place for the rights of minorities.