Meanwhile back in Israel

badbrains · May 2015

Meanwhile in Jerusalem:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/05/clashes-israelis-mark-east-jerusalem-occupation-day-150517194107697.html

mickeyrat · May 2015

Define "Jewish Identity" for me will you?

benjs · May 2015

Mickeyrat, who're you asking?

mickeyrat · May 2015

Both you and yosi.

yosi · May 2015

I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

mickeyrat · May 2015

I was clear in the question. define it. Not what you THINK it is. but what it actually is. ethnic? nationality? belief in judaism? define it.

yosi · May 2015

That's a complicated question the answer to which shifts from person to person. And that's true both for personal identity and the state's identity (since I'm not sure which you're asking about). I don't mean to be evasive, but you're asking a very broad question.

mickeyrat · May 2015

yosi said:
I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.

Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?

benjs · May 2015

mickeyrat said:
I was clear in the question. define it. Not what you THINK it is. but what it actually is. ethnic? nationality? belief in judaism? define it.

To ask what defines a Jewish identity is much like asking you what defines an American. I could be technical and say a Jew is a person who either converts to Judaism, or is born to a Jewish mother. Similarly, I could say you are an American if you hold American citizenship. But I can tell you this: I could live a hundred years in America, and even though my dad is American and therefore (according to the US government) I am American - I sure as hell don't identify as American.

Since Judaism has been recognized over the years as both a race and a religion (and a culture that has grown as a result), there are some major complexities associated with that question. Interestingly enough, in Toronto, to be Jewish very much equates to being Zionist, and accepting of Israeli actions. Because of living here and understanding that fact, I have never identified less as a Jew than since learning about this conflict. I've also spoken to an ultra-Orthodox Jew in Israel who told me to my face that I am not a Jew. He didn't mean it offensively. He meant that based on my core values and ways of life, he did not consider me a Jew (left-leaning was part of that), even though my mother was Jewish, and we can actually trace our lineage back to Rebbe Nachman, a Rabbi who started a Hasidic movement. This same man once taught me a Jewish concept of "whose blood is redder", meaning we can not decide what a person is worth and who a person is by what we see on the outside. The irony - but back on topic here.

What I think is that if reparations are indeed only to be granted with the concept of a Jewish identity preserved (and maybe this is what you're getting at) then the concept of a Jewish identity simply must be demystified in order to progress. How can you protect an abstract thought whose definition varies from person to person and can even change over time?

badbrains · May 2015

More people complaining that news sources are silent when it comes to Israeli guests.

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/amena-saleem/softball-interviews-israeli-ministers-breach-impartiality-code-bbc-admits

yosi · May 2015

Benjs, it's only ever been defined as a race by its enemies. There are Jews of myriad different racial backgrounds. I'd say that what you're getting at is a shared ethnic heritage. In any event the way I would have put it is that Jews have for millennia understood themselves as comprising both a religion and a nation (the shared culture being a feature of both).

benjs · May 2015

yosi said:
Benjs, it's only ever been defined as a race by its enemies. There are Jews of myriad different racial backgrounds. I'd say that what you're getting at is a shared ethnic heritage. In any event the way I would have put it is that Jews have for millennia understood themselves as comprising both a religion and a nation (the shared culture being a feature of both).

Fair enough - nation, not race. I still stand by what I say that, if we're to say that the Jewish identity is no longer up for discussion (i.e. it must be preserved in the region), and that some form of reparations are owed to the Palestinians, then defining a Jewish identity would probably be a solid first step to decide what form reparations may take.

mickeyrat · May 2015

mickeyrat said:

yosi said:
I assume the question is what I think the "Jewish identity" of Israel should consist of. Basically I'd like for the country's civic identity to be defined by its Jewish majority. So Hebrew as the common vernacular, the national calendar defined by the Jewish calendar (e.g., major school holidays aligned with Passover (let's say) in the same way that winter break in the US lines up with Christmas), etc. I also think there should be a strict separation of synagogue and state.
Who exactly would this apply to? Who is included in the Jewish majority?

Waiting, watching the clock......

Halifax2TheMax · May 2015

You can talk about Jewish identity and what a defined Jewish state would look like until the cows come home. Meanwhile, the Israeli government had to walk back their plan of separate buses for Jews and Palestinians returning from the West Bank. Separate but equal? Yea okay, I get it. It's Selma and Montgomery all over again. WTF?

badbrains · May 2015

Halifax2TheMax said:
You can talk about Jewish identity and what a defined Jewish state would look like until the cows come home. Meanwhile, the Israeli government had to walk back their plan of separate buses for Jews and Palestinians returning from the West Bank. Separate but equal? Yea okay, I get it. It's Selma and Montgomery all over again. WTF?

Ya, I saw something about this today.

gimmesometruth27 · May 2015

ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.

benjs · May 2015

gimmesometruth27 said:
ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.

In some ways it's ironic - in others, it makes perfect sense.

Take the largest group of persecuted people (persecuted for existing), put them in a newly formed state that's marketed as a "safe haven", congregate and hide the indigenous people, and thus the realities of the land (i.e. they were never the only ones there), and lead them to war at the onset of the state claiming enemies are still seeking their persecution for merely existing.

Israel, from day one, has been a successful experiment in marketing and in opportunism. What must be overcome is an extended sense of collective victimization, from a people who first witnessed an experiment in marketing and in opportunism (Nazi Germany), and then became part of one unknowingly. Reality is setting in for some, but I do understand why it's taken so long, given the aura of fear and threatened existence. I just hope the enlightenment of the injustices surrounding the state's founding (and continuing injustices) expands rapidly so the next phase can start, where people who ought to have freedom start to receive it.

i_lov_it · May 2015

benjs said:

gimmesometruth27 said:
ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.
In some ways it's ironic - in others, it makes perfect sense.

Take the largest group of persecuted people (persecuted for existing), put them in a newly formed state that's marketed as a "safe haven", congregate and hide the indigenous people, and thus the realities of the land (i.e. they were never the only ones there), and lead them to war at the onset of the state claiming enemies are still seeking their persecution for merely existing.

Israel, from day one, has been a successful experiment in marketing and in opportunism. What must be overcome is an extended sense of collective victimization, from a people who first witnessed an experiment in marketing and in opportunism (Nazi Germany), and then became part of one unknowingly. Reality is setting in for some, but I do understand why it's taken so long, given the aura of fear and threatened existence. I just hope the enlightenment of the injustices surrounding the state's founding (and continuing injustices) expands rapidly so the next phase can start, where people who ought to have freedom start to receive it.

Good point also I don't think it was an experiment of such and you mention "Marketing" what are they selling?...could it be weapons for the fighting maybe or Democracy even.

mickeyrat · May 2015

i_lov_it said:

benjs said:

gimmesometruth27 said:
ironically the descendants of victims of the greatest crime in human history are ok with the actions of israel.
In some ways it's ironic - in others, it makes perfect sense.

Take the largest group of persecuted people (persecuted for existing), put them in a newly formed state that's marketed as a "safe haven", congregate and hide the indigenous people, and thus the realities of the land (i.e. they were never the only ones there), and lead them to war at the onset of the state claiming enemies are still seeking their persecution for merely existing.

Israel, from day one, has been a successful experiment in marketing and in opportunism. What must be overcome is an extended sense of collective victimization, from a people who first witnessed an experiment in marketing and in opportunism (Nazi Germany), and then became part of one unknowingly. Reality is setting in for some, but I do understand why it's taken so long, given the aura of fear and threatened existence. I just hope the enlightenment of the injustices surrounding the state's founding (and continuing injustices) expands rapidly so the next phase can start, where people who ought to have freedom start to receive it.
Good point also I don't think it was an experiment of such and you mention "Marketing" what are they selling?...could it be weapons for the fighting maybe or Democracy even.

Fear.

badbrains · May 2015

Fear is your only God

Meanwhile back in Israel

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