What the hell happened in Wisconsin?

Last-12-Exit · March 2015

It amazes me to hear some of you defend the criminals of this country. Once again, some of you throw blame in the wrong direction. Poor training, over zealous police, and racism is is the reason in your eyes. Forget about the fact that these guys ARE BREAKING THE LAW. The argument of "assault shouldn't result in the death penalty" is tiresome. No, it shouldnt. If the ass holes had just bothered to have his day in court.

Since when is the life of a cop more important than the life of the criminal? When the criminal decided he wanted to reach for the cops gun, or assault the officer. That's when. And that's not a choice made by the cop. It was made by the CRIMINAL. Most of you guys want to hang the cop before the evidence is publicly known. (See Darren Wilson). Hell, even when the evidence is out there, most of you will find a way to make excuses for the criminal.

America's police force doesn't need better training. They need the support of the people they protect. Here's the bottom line: if you just listen to them, they won't shoot you. Why can't some of you understand this concept? There is no excuse for what Michael Brown did. Or this guy in Wisconsin. They deserved what they got. Not because they were black, or poor, or mentally ill. Because they were stupid. Because they didn't listen. Because they HIT A POLICE OFFICER. When has that ever been acceptable?

rgambs · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

hedonist said:

jeffbr said:
I know we don't share a lot of common ground on this topic, but will agree with you here. In fact, the DoJ put our Seattle PD under a mandatory reform plan due to many civil rights violations that were occurring in the dept. One thing that is changing is that the SPD is being trained to do just as you suggest above. They are even spending less time at the academy teaching fighting techniques, and more time teaching them how to talk to people, be empathetic, and deal with individuals. Here's a link to the specific outline of the change at SPD:
http://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/doj-and-city-hail-federal-judge-s-approval-new-seattle-police-department-crisis

One of the most egregious shootings in the past few years was an SPD cop who jumped out of his car yelling at a Native American man who was a known street person, had some hearing impairment, alcoholism, and some mental issues. He was a woodcarver, and would sit on the streets of Seattle carving little totems, so he always was carrying his carving knife. He had no time to comprehend what the officer was yelling at him, no time to comply, and was gunned down. Even SPD ruled the shooting unjustified. I thought the cop should fry for the shooting, but he was dismissed from the dept, and not prosecuted. Anyway, that is one example of why the DoJ stepped in and we had wholesale changes in leadership in the SPD.

I think empathy, and understanding can go a long way toward deescalation, and avoiding many tragic shootings. At the same time, I completely justify the shooting of criminals who will not comply, and pose a serious risk to the safety and lives of the cops and public. So while you think many of us are blood-thirsty, blindly pro-cop, racists who like to see minorities get killed, what I think most of us are can be summed up as pragmatic realists.
Talk about a voice of reason! I inherited (or learned) this myself from my father - although both of us admittedly had/have a nice measure of idealism/romanticism mixed in.

Here in West Hollywood, there's a fair population of homeless / mentally ill. Without fail, every incident to which I've been privy has involved kind, gentle officers/sheriffs who treated each of these people with respect. That kind of training/instinct?/character goes a long, long way.

And not only that, but it seems as if the anti-cop contingent refuses to acknowledge the truth to the matter which is as follows: we are debating the rare exception to the rule. Without question, the majority of police work is exemplary, done with very little fanfare, and employing so much of what is being demanded.

For as often as some posters cite statistics to back up... say... pitbull attacks (only to use a recent thread for example)... they haven't done a great job keeping nation wide law enforcement in perspective when presented with international newsworthy items periodically when citizens become unruly in the policing process.

Those of us in the "anti-cop contingent", as you have so flippantly labeled us, have all acknowledged that the majority of police work is acceptable. You call it the "rare exception" while people related to Mr Rice and Mr Thomas and countless others call it a senseless tragedy and a serious problem. Your continuous ridicule of those who shine light on police brutality issues is immature. You post with an air of childish arrogance because we annoy you and you can't handle that apparently.
Just because you want us to end every statement in the debate with a caveat about most cops being good, that doesn't mean we should have to bother to do so. If we did then you would have to end every post with a caveat about how police brutality does exist and is a problem and we would all be wasting our time.

rgambs · March 2015

Last-12-Exit said:
It amazes me to hear some of you defend the criminals of this country. Once again, some of you throw blame in the wrong direction. Poor training, over zealous police, and racism is is the reason in your eyes. Forget about the fact that these guys ARE BREAKING THE LAW. The argument of "assault shouldn't result in the death penalty" is tiresome. No, it shouldnt. If the ass holes had just bothered to have his day in court.

Since when is the life of a cop more important than the life of the criminal? When the criminal decided he wanted to reach for the cops gun, or assault the officer. That's when. And that's not a choice made by the cop. It was made by the CRIMINAL. Most of you guys want to hang the cop before the evidence is publicly known. (See Darren Wilson). Hell, even when the evidence is out there, most of you will find a way to make excuses for the criminal.

America's police force doesn't need better training. They need the support of the people they protect. Here's the bottom line: if you just listen to them, they won't shoot you. Why can't some of you understand this concept? There is no excuse for what Michael Brown did. Or this guy in Wisconsin. They deserved what they got. Not because they were black, or poor, or mentally ill. Because they were stupid. Because they didn't listen. Because they HIT A POLICE OFFICER. When has that ever been acceptable?

Yeah because just listening worked out so well for Tamir Rice and John Crawford and countless others. You can rant and rave about CRIMINALS all you want, people who aren't breaking the law will continue to be shot and killed because of the unconditional support people like you give to police.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

hedonist said:

jeffbr said:
I know we don't share a lot of common ground on this topic, but will agree with you here. In fact, the DoJ put our Seattle PD under a mandatory reform plan due to many civil rights violations that were occurring in the dept. One thing that is changing is that the SPD is being trained to do just as you suggest above. They are even spending less time at the academy teaching fighting techniques, and more time teaching them how to talk to people, be empathetic, and deal with individuals. Here's a link to the specific outline of the change at SPD:
http://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/doj-and-city-hail-federal-judge-s-approval-new-seattle-police-department-crisis

One of the most egregious shootings in the past few years was an SPD cop who jumped out of his car yelling at a Native American man who was a known street person, had some hearing impairment, alcoholism, and some mental issues. He was a woodcarver, and would sit on the streets of Seattle carving little totems, so he always was carrying his carving knife. He had no time to comprehend what the officer was yelling at him, no time to comply, and was gunned down. Even SPD ruled the shooting unjustified. I thought the cop should fry for the shooting, but he was dismissed from the dept, and not prosecuted. Anyway, that is one example of why the DoJ stepped in and we had wholesale changes in leadership in the SPD.

I think empathy, and understanding can go a long way toward deescalation, and avoiding many tragic shootings. At the same time, I completely justify the shooting of criminals who will not comply, and pose a serious risk to the safety and lives of the cops and public. So while you think many of us are blood-thirsty, blindly pro-cop, racists who like to see minorities get killed, what I think most of us are can be summed up as pragmatic realists.
Talk about a voice of reason! I inherited (or learned) this myself from my father - although both of us admittedly had/have a nice measure of idealism/romanticism mixed in.

Here in West Hollywood, there's a fair population of homeless / mentally ill. Without fail, every incident to which I've been privy has involved kind, gentle officers/sheriffs who treated each of these people with respect. That kind of training/instinct?/character goes a long, long way.

And not only that, but it seems as if the anti-cop contingent refuses to acknowledge the truth to the matter which is as follows: we are debating the rare exception to the rule. Without question, the majority of police work is exemplary, done with very little fanfare, and employing so much of what is being demanded.

For as often as some posters cite statistics to back up... say... pitbull attacks (only to use a recent thread for example)... they haven't done a great job keeping nation wide law enforcement in perspective when presented with international newsworthy items periodically when citizens become unruly in the policing process.
Those of us in the "anti-cop contingent", as you have so flippantly labeled us, have all acknowledged that the majority of police work is acceptable. You call it the "rare exception" while people related to Mr Rice and Mr Thomas and countless others call it a senseless tragedy and a serious problem. Your continuous ridicule of those who shine light on police brutality issues is immature. You post with an air of childish arrogance because we annoy you and you can't handle that apparently.
Just because you want us to end every statement in the debate with a caveat about most cops being good, that doesn't mean we should have to bother to do so. If we did then you would have to end every post with a caveat about how police brutality does exist and is a problem and we would all be wasting our time.

Firstly... I stand in the same corner as you with regards to Thomas and Rice (I said so in a post a short while back). These cases were brutal and justice for them has hardly been served. Unfortunately, some are not able to discern between incidents where police brutality is legitimate and when they are not though.

Your comment that suggested my 'continuous ridicule of those who shine light on police brutality issues is immature' seems to have betrayed your sensitivity somewhat. If you feel ridiculed by what I have expressed, then perhaps I've touched a nerve that might make you want to examine some of your perspectives instead of lash out at me for speaking my mind.

For the record... I'm really not sure where I made a deliberate attempt to 'ridicule' anyone. If you can point me to such a moment, I might take a moment or two to rephrase or perhaps even apologize if necessary.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:
It amazes me to hear some of you defend the criminals of this country. Once again, some of you throw blame in the wrong direction. Poor training, over zealous police, and racism is is the reason in your eyes. Forget about the fact that these guys ARE BREAKING THE LAW. The argument of "assault shouldn't result in the death penalty" is tiresome. No, it shouldnt. If the ass holes had just bothered to have his day in court.

Since when is the life of a cop more important than the life of the criminal? When the criminal decided he wanted to reach for the cops gun, or assault the officer. That's when. And that's not a choice made by the cop. It was made by the CRIMINAL. Most of you guys want to hang the cop before the evidence is publicly known. (See Darren Wilson). Hell, even when the evidence is out there, most of you will find a way to make excuses for the criminal.

America's police force doesn't need better training. They need the support of the people they protect. Here's the bottom line: if you just listen to them, they won't shoot you. Why can't some of you understand this concept? There is no excuse for what Michael Brown did. Or this guy in Wisconsin. They deserved what they got. Not because they were black, or poor, or mentally ill. Because they were stupid. Because they didn't listen. Because they HIT A POLICE OFFICER. When has that ever been acceptable?

Yeah because just listening worked out so well for Tamir Rice and John Crawford and countless others. You can rant and rave about CRIMINALS all you want, people who aren't breaking the law will continue to be shot and killed because of the unconditional support people like you give to police.

Should we stop all surgical procedures or rewrite current practices because doctors have screwed up in the line of work?

Should we imprison doctors for malpractice that results in death?

Last-12-Exit · March 2015

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:
It amazes me to hear some of you defend the criminals of this country. Once again, some of you throw blame in the wrong direction. Poor training, over zealous police, and racism is is the reason in your eyes. Forget about the fact that these guys ARE BREAKING THE LAW. The argument of "assault shouldn't result in the death penalty" is tiresome. No, it shouldnt. If the ass holes had just bothered to have his day in court.

Since when is the life of a cop more important than the life of the criminal? When the criminal decided he wanted to reach for the cops gun, or assault the officer. That's when. And that's not a choice made by the cop. It was made by the CRIMINAL. Most of you guys want to hang the cop before the evidence is publicly known. (See Darren Wilson). Hell, even when the evidence is out there, most of you will find a way to make excuses for the criminal.

America's police force doesn't need better training. They need the support of the people they protect. Here's the bottom line: if you just listen to them, they won't shoot you. Why can't some of you understand this concept? There is no excuse for what Michael Brown did. Or this guy in Wisconsin. They deserved what they got. Not because they were black, or poor, or mentally ill. Because they were stupid. Because they didn't listen. Because they HIT A POLICE OFFICER. When has that ever been acceptable?

Yeah because just listening worked out so well for Tamir Rice and John Crawford and countless others. You can rant and rave about CRIMINALS all you want, people who aren't breaking the law will continue to be shot and killed because of the unconditional support people like you give to police.

I do not give unconditional support to police. Unjustified shootings should be prosecuted. The problem is that you guys find wrong doing in the justified shootings. The Tamir rice shooting will probably go down as justified. I believe where they (the cops) screwed up is falsifying the report not knowing it was on tape.

Publicly bashing every cop that shoots somebody is not the answer. Yes, there have been unjustified killings by police over the years. But not every one is unjustified. Most of them are 100% justified.

backseatLover12 · March 2015

hedonist said:

jeffbr said:
I know we don't share a lot of common ground on this topic, but will agree with you here. In fact, the DoJ put our Seattle PD under a mandatory reform plan due to many civil rights violations that were occurring in the dept. One thing that is changing is that the SPD is being trained to do just as you suggest above. They are even spending less time at the academy teaching fighting techniques, and more time teaching them how to talk to people, be empathetic, and deal with individuals. Here's a link to the specific outline of the change at SPD:
http://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/doj-and-city-hail-federal-judge-s-approval-new-seattle-police-department-crisis

One of the most egregious shootings in the past few years was an SPD cop who jumped out of his car yelling at a Native American man who was a known street person, had some hearing impairment, alcoholism, and some mental issues. He was a woodcarver, and would sit on the streets of Seattle carving little totems, so he always was carrying his carving knife. He had no time to comprehend what the officer was yelling at him, no time to comply, and was gunned down. Even SPD ruled the shooting unjustified. I thought the cop should fry for the shooting, but he was dismissed from the dept, and not prosecuted. Anyway, that is one example of why the DoJ stepped in and we had wholesale changes in leadership in the SPD.

I think empathy, and understanding can go a long way toward deescalation, and avoiding many tragic shootings. At the same time, I completely justify the shooting of criminals who will not comply, and pose a serious risk to the safety and lives of the cops and public. So while you think many of us are blood-thirsty, blindly pro-cop, racists who like to see minorities get killed, what I think most of us are can be summed up as pragmatic realists.
Talk about a voice of reason! I inherited (or learned) this myself from my father - although both of us admittedly had/have a nice measure of idealism/romanticism mixed in.

Here in West Hollywood, there's a fair population of homeless / mentally ill. Without fail, every incident to which I've been privy has involved kind, gentle officers/sheriffs who treated each of these people with respect. That kind of training/instinct?/character goes a long, long way.

You agree with 30, talking about empathy, yet you defend death upon one man, on the ground, against 4 cops, hedonist. This is so contradictive, it begs explanation.

backseatLover12 · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

hedonist said:

jeffbr said:
I know we don't share a lot of common ground on this topic, but will agree with you here. In fact, the DoJ put our Seattle PD under a mandatory reform plan due to many civil rights violations that were occurring in the dept. One thing that is changing is that the SPD is being trained to do just as you suggest above. They are even spending less time at the academy teaching fighting techniques, and more time teaching them how to talk to people, be empathetic, and deal with individuals. Here's a link to the specific outline of the change at SPD:
http://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwa/pr/doj-and-city-hail-federal-judge-s-approval-new-seattle-police-department-crisis

One of the most egregious shootings in the past few years was an SPD cop who jumped out of his car yelling at a Native American man who was a known street person, had some hearing impairment, alcoholism, and some mental issues. He was a woodcarver, and would sit on the streets of Seattle carving little totems, so he always was carrying his carving knife. He had no time to comprehend what the officer was yelling at him, no time to comply, and was gunned down. Even SPD ruled the shooting unjustified. I thought the cop should fry for the shooting, but he was dismissed from the dept, and not prosecuted. Anyway, that is one example of why the DoJ stepped in and we had wholesale changes in leadership in the SPD.

I think empathy, and understanding can go a long way toward deescalation, and avoiding many tragic shootings. At the same time, I completely justify the shooting of criminals who will not comply, and pose a serious risk to the safety and lives of the cops and public. So while you think many of us are blood-thirsty, blindly pro-cop, racists who like to see minorities get killed, what I think most of us are can be summed up as pragmatic realists.
Talk about a voice of reason! I inherited (or learned) this myself from my father - although both of us admittedly had/have a nice measure of idealism/romanticism mixed in.

Here in West Hollywood, there's a fair population of homeless / mentally ill. Without fail, every incident to which I've been privy has involved kind, gentle officers/sheriffs who treated each of these people with respect. That kind of training/instinct?/character goes a long, long way.

And not only that, but it seems as if the anti-cop contingent refuses to acknowledge the truth to the matter which is as follows: we are debating the rare exception to the rule. Without question, the majority of police work is exemplary, done with very little fanfare, and employing so much of what is being demanded.

For as often as some posters cite statistics to back up... say... pitbull attacks (only to use a recent thread for example)... they haven't done a great job keeping nation wide law enforcement in perspective when presented with international newsworthy items periodically when citizens become unruly in the policing process.

The Fuck? Did I Not explain myself several times here or are you people refusing to read what I write? THE NATIONAL PROBLEM OF POLICE AND MINORITIES. It is not an exception to the rule, it is REALITY of society in the United States. Besides 30, who has given a good debate here, no one else has. I'll say it one. more. time. There are good cops out there, but the bad ones are giving the entire police force suddenly, a bad name.

No, scratch that. The law allows for the police to use deadly force to protect cops from civil suits if they shoot to injure an area other than the chest and not kill who they're going after. Seriously, I'm going to refuse to debate here if you're not reading the links to back my point up. The proof is there, from a cop. Because there are two sides to this argument yet, all I'm hearing is an undying allegiance to support the police force regardless of wrongdoing to the public.

oftenreading · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:
It amazes me to hear some of you defend the criminals of this country. Once again, some of you throw blame in the wrong direction. Poor training, over zealous police, and racism is is the reason in your eyes. Forget about the fact that these guys ARE BREAKING THE LAW. The argument of "assault shouldn't result in the death penalty" is tiresome. No, it shouldnt. If the ass holes had just bothered to have his day in court.

Since when is the life of a cop more important than the life of the criminal? When the criminal decided he wanted to reach for the cops gun, or assault the officer. That's when. And that's not a choice made by the cop. It was made by the CRIMINAL. Most of you guys want to hang the cop before the evidence is publicly known. (See Darren Wilson). Hell, even when the evidence is out there, most of you will find a way to make excuses for the criminal.

America's police force doesn't need better training. They need the support of the people they protect. Here's the bottom line: if you just listen to them, they won't shoot you. Why can't some of you understand this concept? There is no excuse for what Michael Brown did. Or this guy in Wisconsin. They deserved what they got. Not because they were black, or poor, or mentally ill. Because they were stupid. Because they didn't listen. Because they HIT A POLICE OFFICER. When has that ever been acceptable?

Yeah because just listening worked out so well for Tamir Rice and John Crawford and countless others. You can rant and rave about CRIMINALS all you want, people who aren't breaking the law will continue to be shot and killed because of the unconditional support people like you give to police.
Should we stop all surgical procedures or rewrite current practices because doctors have screwed up in the line of work?

Should we imprison doctors for malpractice that results in death?

When a surgical procedure results in death that isn't expected, the cause is investigated. When it is due to physician error or even malpractice, you can bet that there are consequences. If the harm is deliberate or due to reckless behaviour, then yes, the physician can go to jail, although that situation is rare. And of course "current practices" in surgery are constantly being researched and improved upon to improve results - is that the same for policing? Surgery has very strict protocols and checklists to ensure that proper procedures are followed. And I think someone mentioned education and training as well. Surgeons are required to have quite a lot of that, continuing every year that they practice. 400 hundred hours of continuing education every 5 years, in fact. That's part of why surgical practice continues to improve.

backseatLover12 · March 2015

And not only that, but it seems as if the anti-cop contingent refuses to acknowledge the truth to the matter which is as follows: we are debating the rare exception to the rule. Without question, the majority of police work is exemplary, done with very little fanfare, and employing so much of what is being demanded.

For as often as some posters cite statistics to back up... say... pitbull attacks (only to use a recent thread for example)... they haven't done a great job keeping nation wide law enforcement in perspective when presented with international newsworthy items periodically when citizens become unruly in the policing process.

Those of us in the "anti-cop contingent", as you have so flippantly labeled us, have all acknowledged that the majority of police work is acceptable. You call it the "rare exception" while people related to Mr Rice and Mr Thomas and countless others call it a senseless tragedy and a serious problem. Your continuous ridicule of those who shine light on police brutality issues is immature. You post with an air of childish arrogance because we annoy you and you can't handle that apparently.
Just because you want us to end every statement in the debate with a caveat about most cops being good, that doesn't mean we should have to bother to do so. If we did then you would have to end every post with a caveat about how police brutality does exist and is a problem and we would all be wasting our time.

You know what's happening, is that 30 is willing to see both sides when replying to you or me or anyone else looking at things realistically, but in response to hedonist, who is "on the other side", he's throwing labels like we're not here. What do you think we are 30, stupid? Your true colors are shining through, dude.

muskydan · March 2015

guys, guys, guys.... U ain't gonna convice or change anyone's mind on this subject no matter how hard you try. I know it's maddening but it is what it is. I assure you Liberal society will be getting the Type of policing they are demanding ....it's already happening and Turning out to be a lot safer for officers, Unless assassinations of police continue, then you will see the real militarization of the Police. Tax payers will suffer Unfortionately in that the bad guys will no longer fear the police and will continue to do what they are bred to do. And a couple of years from now the same kuckleheads will be on here posting non sence about why the Police didn't do anything. Protect yourself and your family any which way you can and when the police do the report for you, they will be sympathetic and understanding from all the wonderful sensitivity training required.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:
It amazes me to hear some of you defend the criminals of this country. Once again, some of you throw blame in the wrong direction. Poor training, over zealous police, and racism is is the reason in your eyes. Forget about the fact that these guys ARE BREAKING THE LAW. The argument of "assault shouldn't result in the death penalty" is tiresome. No, it shouldnt. If the ass holes had just bothered to have his day in court.

Since when is the life of a cop more important than the life of the criminal? When the criminal decided he wanted to reach for the cops gun, or assault the officer. That's when. And that's not a choice made by the cop. It was made by the CRIMINAL. Most of you guys want to hang the cop before the evidence is publicly known. (See Darren Wilson). Hell, even when the evidence is out there, most of you will find a way to make excuses for the criminal.

America's police force doesn't need better training. They need the support of the people they protect. Here's the bottom line: if you just listen to them, they won't shoot you. Why can't some of you understand this concept? There is no excuse for what Michael Brown did. Or this guy in Wisconsin. They deserved what they got. Not because they were black, or poor, or mentally ill. Because they were stupid. Because they didn't listen. Because they HIT A POLICE OFFICER. When has that ever been acceptable?

Yeah because just listening worked out so well for Tamir Rice and John Crawford and countless others. You can rant and rave about CRIMINALS all you want, people who aren't breaking the law will continue to be shot and killed because of the unconditional support people like you give to police.
Should we stop all surgical procedures or rewrite current practices because doctors have screwed up in the line of work?

Should we imprison doctors for malpractice that results in death?
When a surgical procedure results in death that isn't expected, the cause is investigated. When it is due to physician error or even malpractice, you can bet that there are consequences. If the harm is deliberate or due to reckless behaviour, then yes, the physician can go to jail, although that situation is rare. And of course "current practices" in surgery are constantly being researched and improved upon to improve results - is that the same for policing? Surgery has very strict protocols and checklists to ensure that proper procedures are followed. And I think someone mentioned education and training as well. Surgeons are required to have quite a lot of that, continuing every year that they practice. 400 hundred hours of continuing education every 5 years, in fact. That's part of why surgical practice continues to improve.

I'd bet you more cops go to jail for 'malpractice' than doctors do. I've heard of doctors losing their license after multiple botched surgeries, but that's about it to be honest.

If we were to persist with this line of discussion... it would be important to note that as delicate as a surgeon's work might be... it's rather static versus the fluidity of a cop's work- not to mention the fact that 'clientele' factors in as well. Dealing with potentially dangerous people heightens the senses more than a prepped and drugged patient would. I guess I'm trying to say that I can understand cop error more than a surgeon's given the variables.

If I was brash, I'd question how many times people have died from complications in surgery that were more error on the part of the attending surgeon than what may have been revealed. If one was to doubt the 'he went for my gun' excuse... it seems only natural they would doubt 'he wasn't strong enough' or 'there was nothing we could do' as well.

* Education is significant. I would be completely in favor of recertification models where cops needed to recertify every 2-3 years: fitness, aptitude, performance considerations, etc. I'd also like to see more professional development opportunities (without knowing exactly what currently exists). Whatever we do... let's not pretend a cop needs as much education as a surgeon though

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

backseatLover12 said:
And not only that, but it seems as if the anti-cop contingent refuses to acknowledge the truth to the matter which is as follows: we are debating the rare exception to the rule. Without question, the majority of police work is exemplary, done with very little fanfare, and employing so much of what is being demanded.

For as often as some posters cite statistics to back up... say... pitbull attacks (only to use a recent thread for example)... they haven't done a great job keeping nation wide law enforcement in perspective when presented with international newsworthy items periodically when citizens become unruly in the policing process.

Those of us in the "anti-cop contingent", as you have so flippantly labeled us, have all acknowledged that the majority of police work is acceptable. You call it the "rare exception" while people related to Mr Rice and Mr Thomas and countless others call it a senseless tragedy and a serious problem. Your continuous ridicule of those who shine light on police brutality issues is immature. You post with an air of childish arrogance because we annoy you and you can't handle that apparently.
Just because you want us to end every statement in the debate with a caveat about most cops being good, that doesn't mean we should have to bother to do so. If we did then you would have to end every post with a caveat about how police brutality does exist and is a problem and we would all be wasting our time.

You know what's happening, is that 30 is willing to see both sides when replying to you or me or anyone else looking at things realistically, but in response to hedonist, who is "on the other side", he's throwing labels like we're not here. What do you think we are 30, stupid? Your true colors are shining through, dude.

Huh?

backseatLover12 · March 2015

That's right Musky, because you refuse to acknowledge the problem going on, you'll continue to live in flat out denial that there's a huge problem staring straight at YOU.

It is absolutely deplorable that you can sleep at night knowing that people are getting killed unjustly, yet police get away with it especially lately, with the law behind them supporting the continual racism and brutality. Continue to blindly live in denial.

Everyone, welcome to the Police state, now everyone... OBEY!

oftenreading · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:
It amazes me to hear some of you defend the criminals of this country. Once again, some of you throw blame in the wrong direction. Poor training, over zealous police, and racism is is the reason in your eyes. Forget about the fact that these guys ARE BREAKING THE LAW. The argument of "assault shouldn't result in the death penalty" is tiresome. No, it shouldnt. If the ass holes had just bothered to have his day in court.

Since when is the life of a cop more important than the life of the criminal? When the criminal decided he wanted to reach for the cops gun, or assault the officer. That's when. And that's not a choice made by the cop. It was made by the CRIMINAL. Most of you guys want to hang the cop before the evidence is publicly known. (See Darren Wilson). Hell, even when the evidence is out there, most of you will find a way to make excuses for the criminal.

America's police force doesn't need better training. They need the support of the people they protect. Here's the bottom line: if you just listen to them, they won't shoot you. Why can't some of you understand this concept? There is no excuse for what Michael Brown did. Or this guy in Wisconsin. They deserved what they got. Not because they were black, or poor, or mentally ill. Because they were stupid. Because they didn't listen. Because they HIT A POLICE OFFICER. When has that ever been acceptable?

Yeah because just listening worked out so well for Tamir Rice and John Crawford and countless others. You can rant and rave about CRIMINALS all you want, people who aren't breaking the law will continue to be shot and killed because of the unconditional support people like you give to police.
Should we stop all surgical procedures or rewrite current practices because doctors have screwed up in the line of work?

Should we imprison doctors for malpractice that results in death?
When a surgical procedure results in death that isn't expected, the cause is investigated. When it is due to physician error or even malpractice, you can bet that there are consequences. If the harm is deliberate or due to reckless behaviour, then yes, the physician can go to jail, although that situation is rare. And of course "current practices" in surgery are constantly being researched and improved upon to improve results - is that the same for policing? Surgery has very strict protocols and checklists to ensure that proper procedures are followed. And I think someone mentioned education and training as well. Surgeons are required to have quite a lot of that, continuing every year that they practice. 400 hundred hours of continuing education every 5 years, in fact. That's part of why surgical practice continues to improve.
I'd bet you more cops go to jail for 'malpractice' than doctors do. I've heard of doctors losing their license after multiple botched surgeries, but that's about it to be honest.

If we were to persist with this line of discussion... it would be important to note that as delicate as a surgeon's work might be... it's rather static versus the fluidity of a cop's work- not to mention the fact that 'clientele' factors in as well. Dealing with potentially dangerous people heightens the senses more than a prepped and drugged patient would. I guess I'm trying to say that I can understand cop error more than a surgeon's given the variables.

If I was brash, I'd question how many times people have died from complications in surgery that were more error on the part of the attending surgeon than what may have been revealed. If one was to doubt the 'he went for my gun' excuse... it seems only natural they would doubt 'he wasn't strong enough' or 'there was nothing we could do' as well.

* Education is significant. I would be completely in favor of recertification models where cops needed to recertify every 2-3 years: fitness, aptitude, performance considerations, etc. I'd also like to see more professional development opportunities (without knowing exactly what currently exists). Whatever we do... let's not pretend a cop needs as much education as a surgeon though

Rather static? Actually no; the situation changes frequently during surgery.

Education? I'm not pretending an officer needs as much education as a surgeon, but ongoing education throughout the career would probably be helpful for policing, as with any career.

backseatLover12 · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

backseatLover12 said:
And not only that, but it seems as if the anti-cop contingent refuses to acknowledge the truth to the matter which is as follows: we are debating the rare exception to the rule. Without question, the majority of police work is exemplary, done with very little fanfare, and employing so much of what is being demanded.

For as often as some posters cite statistics to back up... say... pitbull attacks (only to use a recent thread for example)... they haven't done a great job keeping nation wide law enforcement in perspective when presented with international newsworthy items periodically when citizens become unruly in the policing process.

Those of us in the "anti-cop contingent", as you have so flippantly labeled us, have all acknowledged that the majority of police work is acceptable. You call it the "rare exception" while people related to Mr Rice and Mr Thomas and countless others call it a senseless tragedy and a serious problem. Your continuous ridicule of those who shine light on police brutality issues is immature. You post with an air of childish arrogance because we annoy you and you can't handle that apparently.
Just because you want us to end every statement in the debate with a caveat about most cops being good, that doesn't mean we should have to bother to do so. If we did then you would have to end every post with a caveat about how police brutality does exist and is a problem and we would all be wasting our time.

You know what's happening, is that 30 is willing to see both sides when replying to you or me or anyone else looking at things realistically, but in response to hedonist, who is "on the other side", he's throwing labels like we're not here. What do you think we are 30, stupid? Your true colors are shining through, dude.

Huh?

I had trouble quoting. The first 2 paragraphs are you, of course, how do you forget calling us anti-cop continents? Don't play dumb.

Rgambs, the 2nd two.

backseatLover12 · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Last-12-Exit said:
It amazes me to hear some of you defend the criminals of this country. Once again, some of you throw blame in the wrong direction. Poor training, over zealous police, and racism is is the reason in your eyes. Forget about the fact that these guys ARE BREAKING THE LAW. The argument of "assault shouldn't result in the death penalty" is tiresome. No, it shouldnt. If the ass holes had just bothered to have his day in court.

Since when is the life of a cop more important than the life of the criminal? When the criminal decided he wanted to reach for the cops gun, or assault the officer. That's when. And that's not a choice made by the cop. It was made by the CRIMINAL. Most of you guys want to hang the cop before the evidence is publicly known. (See Darren Wilson). Hell, even when the evidence is out there, most of you will find a way to make excuses for the criminal.

America's police force doesn't need better training. They need the support of the people they protect. Here's the bottom line: if you just listen to them, they won't shoot you. Why can't some of you understand this concept? There is no excuse for what Michael Brown did. Or this guy in Wisconsin. They deserved what they got. Not because they were black, or poor, or mentally ill. Because they were stupid. Because they didn't listen. Because they HIT A POLICE OFFICER. When has that ever been acceptable?

Yeah because just listening worked out so well for Tamir Rice and John Crawford and countless others. You can rant and rave about CRIMINALS all you want, people who aren't breaking the law will continue to be shot and killed because of the unconditional support people like you give to police.
Should we stop all surgical procedures or rewrite current practices because doctors have screwed up in the line of work?

Should we imprison doctors for malpractice that results in death?
When a surgical procedure results in death that isn't expected, the cause is investigated. When it is due to physician error or even malpractice, you can bet that there are consequences. If the harm is deliberate or due to reckless behaviour, then yes, the physician can go to jail, although that situation is rare. And of course "current practices" in surgery are constantly being researched and improved upon to improve results - is that the same for policing? Surgery has very strict protocols and checklists to ensure that proper procedures are followed. And I think someone mentioned education and training as well. Surgeons are required to have quite a lot of that, continuing every year that they practice. 400 hundred hours of continuing education every 5 years, in fact. That's part of why surgical practice continues to improve.
I'd bet you more cops go to jail for 'malpractice' than doctors do. I've heard of doctors losing their license after multiple botched surgeries, but that's about it to be honest.

If we were to persist with this line of discussion... it would be important to note that as delicate as a surgeon's work might be... it's rather static versus the fluidity of a cop's work- not to mention the fact that 'clientele' factors in as well. Dealing with potentially dangerous people heightens the senses more than a prepped and drugged patient would. I guess I'm trying to say that I can understand cop error more than a surgeon's given the variables.

If I was brash, I'd question how many times people have died from complications in surgery that were more error on the part of the attending surgeon than what may have been revealed. If one was to doubt the 'he went for my gun' excuse... it seems only natural they would doubt 'he wasn't strong enough' or 'there was nothing we could do' as well.

* Education is significant. I would be completely in favor of recertification models where cops needed to recertify every 2-3 years: fitness, aptitude, performance considerations, etc. I'd also like to see more professional development opportunities (without knowing exactly what currently exists). Whatever we do... let's not pretend a cop needs as much education as a surgeon though

How about backing it up with statistic links for cop and doctors going to jail then, if you're so sure...

hedonist · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Huh?

Yeah, I'm not getting this either (and frankly, not up for spending a much-welcomed Friday evening in that manner).

bsL - you beg explanation (which has been provided on my part before). It doesn't.

Have you actually read about what went down in this constantly mentioned 4-on-1 situation?

Also, this "side" shit...is bullshit. Maybe that too is part of the problem.

Anyway...

backseatLover12 · March 2015

And do me a favor and actually read the three links I posted, especially the one about the Czech Republic and the one after with a lot of bolding. Unless, you're not going to debate...

muskydan · March 2015

backseatLover12 said:
That's right Musky, because you refuse to acknowledge the problem going on, you'll continue to live in flat out denial that there's a huge problem staring straight at YOU.

It is absolutely deplorable that you can sleep at night knowing that people are getting killed unjustly, yet police get away with it especially lately, with the law behind them supporting the continual racism and brutality. Continue to blindly live in denial.

Everyone, welcome to the Police state, now everyone... OBEY!

I assure you I sleep like a baby... Thumb in my mouth w/ cows jumping over white pickets fences and all that Jazz.

What the hell happened in Wisconsin?

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