What the hell happened in Wisconsin?

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

dignin said:
I'm confused. So these people were not mentally ill? Even though the professionals say they are. Or not mentally ill enough for some here? Where is the line? I'm at a loss.

You said earlier that most of these people are mentally ill. I assumed you were talking of all people that fall victim to a police gun after a struggle.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.

callen · March 2015

hedonist said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Due to love of guns? Really, that's the reason?

How about due to protection of life, whether that of an innocent or the big bad cop?

What about assholes drunk or wasted out of their mind who are aggressive and...(wait for it)...reaching for the gun? Or armed themselves? We just had someone out here (mentioned in another thread) who after a fucked up pursuit came out gun a'blazing. Could've been killed by return fire but the police, after a long standoff, handled it peacefully. No dead asshole.

That this is so black and white to some, just beyond me.

Yes due to the love of guns and the number, US cops are rightfully concerned and some folks such as the guy in gas station reaching for his wallet are shot.

In many European countries cops don't carry guns and cop shootings like in US don't happen.

The black and white seems to reside in shootings and killings and blank approval to cops following current procedures.

callen · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.

Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?

Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.

HughFreakingDillon · March 2015

callen said:

hedonist said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Due to love of guns? Really, that's the reason?

How about due to protection of life, whether that of an innocent or the big bad cop?

What about assholes drunk or wasted out of their mind who are aggressive and...(wait for it)...reaching for the gun? Or armed themselves? We just had someone out here (mentioned in another thread) who after a fucked up pursuit came out gun a'blazing. Could've been killed by return fire but the police, after a long standoff, handled it peacefully. No dead asshole.

That this is so black and white to some, just beyond me.

Yes due to the love of guns and the number, US cops are rightfully concerned and some folks such as the guy in gas station reaching for his wallet are shot.

In many European countries cops don't carry guns and cop shootings like in US don't happen.

The black and white seems to reside in shootings and killings and blank approval to cops following current procedures.

so American cops should carry billy clubs to a gun fight? seriously? it was the cop's fault for bringing the gun to the fight?

yes, we all know that many euro cops don't carry guns. yes, the gun culture in america is different than anywhere else. that's not the fault of the police. they don't "love guns". they NEED GUNS. I hate guns, personally. But I can't for the life of me picture a world in north america where cops don't carry guns. it would be a cake walk for criminals.

I'll ask again: what would YOU have the cops do instead of carrying guns? don't make this into a culture war. we know american gun culture is fucked up. but that doesn't change what cops need to do in times of danger.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?

Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.

You are the one critical of current practices.

How about you offer solutions?

brianlux · March 2015

I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.

jeffbr · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.

Thanks, Thirty. Was going to ask that myself. Diagnosing mental health issues can be tricky. Even for trained professionals in the mental health field. And they don't always agree, since it can be a judgement call based on interviews, and observations over a period of time. Hell, even in trials each side calls their mental health professional expert witnesses who often contradict one another. But let's ignore all of that and demand that cops make split-second mental health evaluation and diagnosis while in the heat of the moment. And maybe they can do a split-second toxicology screening as well just to make sure there's no chemical imbalance before they apply force. It seems like regardless of the immediate threat, cops are going to get shit on here for after-the-fact diagnosis that couldn't possibly be known to cops in the heat of the moment.

rgambs · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?

Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.

You are the one critical of current practices.

How about you offer solutions?

Better pay

Higher admittance standards

Better de-escalation training

Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force

Higher physical fitness standards

Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training

Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers

Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front

Bodycams

HughFreakingDillon · March 2015

brianlux said:
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.

I personally don't think that choice of entertainment is part of the problem. Canadians and Europeans watch the same movies and play the same video games as Americans do.

I'm being completely serious when I say this: the only thing that will change American gun culture is an apocalypse. Seriously. I truly believe it is irreversable at this point. You try, you will get a revolution. A fucking violent one at that.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?

Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.

You are the one critical of current practices.

How about you offer solutions?
Better pay

Higher admittance standards

Better de-escalation training

Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force

Higher physical fitness standards

Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training

Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers

Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front

Bodycams

Good. Get it done.

In the meantime, we have human beings like you and I doing a really tough job. How about until we have implemented these changes, we afford them a level of respect and understanding when they are challenged in a potentially life and death situation.

Of course, when it is ascertained that one of these professionals has performed negligently (Rice or Thomas cases for examples), we should administer appropriate consequences.

HughFreakingDillon · March 2015

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?

Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.

You are the one critical of current practices.

How about you offer solutions?
Better pay

Higher admittance standards

Better de-escalation training

Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force

Higher physical fitness standards

Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training

Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers

Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front

Bodycams

agreed on all counts. but where is all this money going to come from? in Canada, cops are paid hansomly. by and large, the right people are recruited. not sure why it's so different to the south.

do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · March 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.
I personally don't think that choice of entertainment is part of the problem. Canadians and Europeans watch the same movies and play the same video games as Americans do.

I'm being completely serious when I say this: the only thing that will change American gun culture is an apocalypse. Seriously. I truly believe it is irreversable at this point. You try, you will get a revolution. A fucking violent one at that.

Yup. You're a tad bit fooked to put it bluntly.

Small incremental changes are your only hope to achieve change over the long haul. There is no immediate band aid cure for what ails you at the moment.

brianlux · March 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:
I'll throw in my two cents. Unless you're in favor of needless deaths and ongoing violence, the culture needs to change. Callen pointed out that in some European cultures cops don't even carry guns. Why? Because they are not a culture of violence and because they have less social inequity. We promote violence through our a-musement (interesting word when you break it down), and so-called entertainments. That's half the picture. The other half is the inequity in the U.S. The rich get richer poor get poorer. The result of that is and always will be, more violence. Change the culture, change the social structure, follow the lead of places where those things are working and there will be less violence. But does America really want less violence. Look at our history. Probably not.
I personally don't think that choice of entertainment is part of the problem. Canadians and Europeans watch the same movies and play the same video games as Americans do.

I'm being completely serious when I say this: the only thing that will change American gun culture is an apocalypse. Seriously. I truly believe it is irreversable at this point. You try, you will get a revolution. A fucking violent one at that.

In general, we're so slow to and resistant to change here in the U.S. that any revolution or apocalypse in going to be none existent or very much in slow motion. The best weapon is the pen. And the internet is like a super-pen. If we use it right, the culture will change. If we continue to promote violence, the slo-mo break down will just keep degrading what is left.

rgambs · March 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?

Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.

You are the one critical of current practices.

How about you offer solutions?
Better pay

Higher admittance standards

Better de-escalation training

Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force

Higher physical fitness standards

Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training

Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers

Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front

Bodycams
agreed on all counts. but where is all this money going to come from? in Canada, cops are paid hansomly. by and large, the right people are recruited. not sure why it's so different to the south.

do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.

The money could come from anywhere...cut subsidies to the sugar, oil, "defense" industries and boom, there's your money. Close a foreign military base, legalize pot and tax it, sin tax on soda, the possibilities are limitless.

As far as the gun pull, I don't know if they exist, but the mechanics wouldn't be b hard to design...a deep groove on the gun correspondent to a ridge in the holster is a pretty simple idea. Think aboutaboutw a gun comes out of a belt holster...because ypur arm is bent and your hand faces away from you, it comes out up and slightly back, now just increase the back slide a little bit and it wont come out if someone pulls from the front as their hand faces you.

rgambs · March 2015

If we can make police safer and more confident, everybody wins.
Every step away from Barney Fife and towards James Bond makes everybody safer and happier.

HughFreakingDillon · March 2015

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?

Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.

You are the one critical of current practices.

How about you offer solutions?
Better pay

Higher admittance standards

Better de-escalation training

Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force

Higher physical fitness standards

Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training

Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers

Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front

Bodycams
agreed on all counts. but where is all this money going to come from? in Canada, cops are paid hansomly. by and large, the right people are recruited. not sure why it's so different to the south.

do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.

The money could come from anywhere...cut subsidies to the sugar, oil, "defense" industries and boom, there's your money. Close a foreign military base, legalize pot and tax it, sin tax on soda, the possibilities are limitless.

As far as the gun pull, I don't know if they exist, but the mechanics wouldn't be b hard to design...a deep groove on the gun correspondent to a ridge in the holster is a pretty simple idea. Think aboutaboutw a gun comes out of a belt holster...because ypur arm is bent and your hand faces away from you, it comes out up and slightly back, now just increase the back slide a little bit and it wont come out if someone pulls from the front as their hand faces you.

that was my point. all of those options of where the money could come from aren't feasible in the current social paranoid and conservative climate in the US. I just don't see it happening. defence is too high a commodity in the public's eyes. cutting subsidies to the biggest industries in the US is a no brainer-ain't gonna happen. taxing soda is a tax on the poor. closing a military base? are you MAD? LOL

Last-12-Exit · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.

Bingo. Stop using illness as an excuse to defy the police. It will end badly EVERY TIME.

rgambs · March 2015

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:
Of course they don't leave guns in car when going to a call. Can't do that in states due to love of guns.

But also say there has to be a better way than to give mentally unstable person access to the gun.

And "he reached for my gun" seems to be a common theme.

Resisting arrest and fighting with police is a common theme too.

How is the cop supposed to be aware of medical condition of suspect? Acting strangely can be attributed to several things... not to mention drugs that can make a person highly unpredictable and volatile.
Resisting arrest a death sentence ? Fighting cop death sentence ? Who determines resistance? The cop?

Offer solutions. Five cops and no Visable weapon should not equal death. One idiot with flat blade screwdriver against. 5. Cops should not equal death.

You are the one critical of current practices.

How about you offer solutions?
Better pay

Higher admittance standards

Better de-escalation training

Tougher penalties (or simply having penalties) for unnecessary use of force

Higher physical fitness standards

Extensive, ongoing PT and hand to hand combat training

Tasers on all belts and flak on all officers

Holsters which prohibit gun pulls from the front

Bodycams
agreed on all counts. but where is all this money going to come from? in Canada, cops are paid hansomly. by and large, the right people are recruited. not sure why it's so different to the south.

do such holsters exist, by the way? and don't all cops pull forward when drawing their gun? I would imagine it would be incredibly awkward to pull backwards when it's on your hip.

The money could come from anywhere...cut subsidies to the sugar, oil, "defense" industries and boom, there's your money. Close a foreign military base, legalize pot and tax it, sin tax on soda, the possibilities are limitless.

As far as the gun pull, I don't know if they exist, but the mechanics wouldn't be b hard to design...a deep groove on the gun correspondent to a ridge in the holster is a pretty simple idea. Think aboutaboutw a gun comes out of a belt holster...because ypur arm is bent and your hand faces away from you, it comes out up and slightly back, now just increase the back slide a little bit and it wont come out if someone pulls from the front as their hand faces you.
that was my point. all of those options of where the money could come from aren't feasible in the current social paranoid and conservative climate in the US. I just don't see it happening. defence is too high a commodity in the public's eyes. cutting subsidies to the biggest industries in the US is a no brainer-ain't gonna happen. taxing soda is a tax on the poor. closing a military base? are you MAD? LOL

Haha yeah, there isn't much hope for any progress in this country, unless you count regression as progress lol

backseatLover12 · March 2015

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

backseatLover12 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

backseatLover12 said:
Are there any minorities on these boards? How about we hear what their views are. I bet not one of you supporting the police is in the minority.
Some very sound logic has been presented to you.

You have ignored it and further... you have become rude- taking personal shots, stomping your foot, and appearing completely unwilling to consider anything outside of your belief system.

Not fantastic.
I have ignored what, I ask questions and get the run-around for answers. Except for the other post, 30, where I agree with you, you are merely taking stabs now. My belief system or the big elephant in the room that we are having a national crisis between Police and minorities??? That shoot to kill is acceptable???
You haven't spoken to any of the moderate positions posted.

And seem to have forgotten that you essentially acknowledged the police are only the tip of the spear. Society has created a situation where many people- especially minorities- have grown to resent much, hate the estabishment, resort to crime, and force the police hand. Police have grown to resent consistently dealing with problems in certain neighborhoods. Every cop has their story: most do not enter the force as full fledged racists- these attitudes develop over time and incident.

We have placed both sides of the issue we speak of as opponents to some degree by setting the stage. It's way bigger than retraining officers or offering sensitivity training- these tactics are nothing more than plugging holes in the dam with your fingers.

Moderate positions? Have you any acknowledgment that maybe the establishment has gotten more racist rather than accepting? It goes both ways. Establishment tends to be racist, minorities get pissed about it. Minorities lack respect for racist authority, authority's coming back with the big guns. So if that's what you mean by moderate positions, let's agree that both sides have a part in it.

It STARTS with retraining the police, and continues with accepting everyone regardless of color. This has to come from the authority first.

What the hell happened in Wisconsin?

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