I disagree with this article on obesity..Whats your opinion?

hedonist said:

callen, your comments seem to equate common sense with someone thinking they're above others. My goodness, we might as well stifle the conversation then.

To insinuate that anyone who sees this in another or different way lacks empathy or humaneness is just off (not to mention the unnecessary tone of condescension).

the tone of condescension runs rampant on both sides of the argument.

paulonious said:

hedonist said:

callen, your comments seem to equate common sense with someone thinking they're above others. My goodness, we might as well stifle the conversation then.

To insinuate that anyone who sees this in another or different way lacks empathy or humaneness is just off (not to mention the unnecessary tone of condescension).

the tone of condescension runs rampant on both sides of the argument.

Rampant? Not sure I agree with you there. Maybe I missed something, but this seemed to be a pretty informative and honest / respectful discussion, for the most part on both parts. How the suggestion of some here needing therapy due to their views entered into things, I have no idea.

hedonist said:

callen, your comments seem to equate common sense with someone thinking they're above others. My goodness, we might as well stifle the conversation then.

To insinuate that anyone who sees this in another or different way lacks empathy or humaneness is just off (not to mention the unnecessary tone of condescension).

This is AMT it's not personal and if the mindset shifts from "they are dumb and Lazy" to why is it humans do bad things that's not stifling debate it's progressing it. In my opinion.

.

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

We all crave the hit. Be it sex, cars, music, drugs jewelry etc. For many that have limited choices to get the Hit they turn to that surgery drink. Rather than that bowl of grass. Add the very effective marketing machines incredible knowledge of the human brain, it's no wonder we as a nation are overweight.

It's so easy to judge. Harder to have empathy to see reason humans are the way they are. Guess therapy for some to express their perceived superiority.

So because I make the decision to eat healthy and hold people accountable for the decisions they make without making excuses for them, I need therapy for my superiority complex?

I don't need spoon fed. Neither do people that live in poverty. You know, I know, the poor knows what's good for you and what's not. You don't need to spend 12 years in school to figure that out.

Your not special Last 12. Your lucky. Your are the product of your environment just as other humans are the product of theirs. You are not special or in any way better. Tough to swallow but once you do you'll be a kindler gentler human. And then have empathy. Almost Christ like if he existed. Ha

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. You'd almost have to be because I don't recall saying I was special or superior to anyone.

If you say "I know " so I eat better and those dummies can do the same you are indeed saying you are better. I'm simply saying you are the way you are due to the DNA that you were given and the environment to which you live. So rather think Bout why people are the way they are rather than looking down on others.

And always healthy to look at ones own shortcomings and one may see motivations to which we dog out others as the need for humans to get high. One persons porn is another's coca cola.

Cool thing we all get high on PJ.

hedonist said:

paulonious said:

hedonist said:

callen, your comments seem to equate common sense with someone thinking they're above others. My goodness, we might as well stifle the conversation then.

To insinuate that anyone who sees this in another or different way lacks empathy or humaneness is just off (not to mention the unnecessary tone of condescension).

the tone of condescension runs rampant on both sides of the argument.

Rampant? Not sure I agree with you there. Maybe I missed something, but this seemed to be a pretty informative and honest / respectful discussion, for the most part on both parts. How the suggestion of some here needing therapy due to their views entered into things, I have no idea.

I just meant with people, instead of discussing the potential socio-economic reasons for this, who turned it into "I make better decisions than them, stop making excuses for fat people".

Thanks for the thread, Speedy. It was a good read. I am firmly in the camp that the majority of the poor cannot use poverty as an excuse for obesity since they're obviously spending money on some sort of food. There can be many other factors from lack of education about nutrition, to easily accessible quality food in their neighborhoods, to them placing a lower priority on nutrition in the face of other perceived higher-priority issues in their lives (paying the rent, keeping their families safe, etc...). As many have pointed out in this thread, eating healthy does not have to cost more. In fact, in most cases it will cost less than buying fast food or pre-packaged, processed food. The problem is that it takes conscious effort to make it less expensive. I shop sales. I buy meat after it has been marked down as a Manager's Special as it approaches expiration and take it right home to the freezer. I buy big bags of rice and beans. My wife shops coupons and takes advantage of sales to stock the pantry. We know what things should cost from experience, and won't overpay. We'll go without some things and wait for a sale. We plan our menus. Last week I cooked a number of dinners, each feeding a 3 adults and providing leftovers, for under $10 each. I made lettuce wraps, a Hungarian cauliflower soup, some German Rouladen, and chicken gyros last week for dinners. Probably once a week we I'll make a pizza crust (flour and water are cheap!), and repurpose some leftovers into some sort of pizza. The week before I had some leftover shredded chicken we used in burritos, and I made a Mexican chicken style pizza. Last week I repurposed some Asian style ground turkey we used for lettuce wraps into an Asian style pizza. It is fun to experiment, and a fun way to eat leftovers by turning them into something different. Those meals cost even less, since I'd already accounted for the cost in the original meal and I used minimal ingredients to create a new meal from it.

So many people in the thread making excuses for others. It does come down to accountability, and it takes effort. There will always be exceptions who really are in situations where they may not be able to eat nutritiously and cheaply, but diggin's article notwithstanding, there are plenty of families out there who could do a much, much better job with their menu planning and grocery shopping. I, too, have seen plenty of people pay for pre-made, processed, ready-to-eat or frozen meals with their government assistance. I look at their basket, I look at my basket, and I know who is eating better and more cheaply. The one paying more for their basket can least afford to, and could with some effort fix it. Those are the people I think most in this thread are talking about.

hedonist said:

To be clear, my questioning the choices some make to NOT educate themselves isn't equatable to my feeling or thinking I'm above anyone (nor does anyone need to prove their empathetic side).

Talk about judging. Sheesh!

No kidding. It is funny how those who accuse others of being judgmental are making some pretty big judgments themselves. The only way one forms an opinion is through judgment, isn't it? We have to make some sort of judgment about something in order to even have an opinion unless we're all sitting around reciting well-established, uncontested factual information to each other, which sounds pretty boring to me.

Last-12-Exit said:

paulonious said:

Last 12 Exit said: "So because I make the decision to eat healthy and hold people accountable for the decisions they make without making excuses for them, I need therapy for my superiority complex?"

While saying you need therapy is a bit much, putting yourself in the "better decisions" box, you kind of take yourself out of the "understanding society" box.

I had a conversation with a very well-to-do dentist friend of mine (both of us at the head table at our friend's wedding) about how he doesn't tip waitresses. He said 'why should I give them my hard earned money because they made poorer decisions in life than I did?'. I thought that was incredibly elitist. He isn't taking into consideration the lot this person was given. He basically grew up rich compared to most people in these positions. His parents paid for his schooling all the way through, and somehow he views this as a good decision he had made in life.

there's a reason that obesity runs rampant in poorer communities. and it's isn't as simplistic as saying "they made bad choices" at the grocery store. it runs MUCH deeper than that.

So we can't agree that eating salads and raw fruits and vegetables is a better decision that eating McDonald's every day? In that case, I guess I'm an elitist. Lol.

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

Last-12-Exit said:

callen said:

We all crave the hit. Be it sex, cars, music, drugs jewelry etc. For many that have limited choices to get the Hit they turn to that surgery drink. Rather than that bowl of grass. Add the very effective marketing machines incredible knowledge of the human brain, it's no wonder we as a nation are overweight.

It's so easy to judge. Harder to have empathy to see reason humans are the way they are. Guess therapy for some to express their perceived superiority.

So because I make the decision to eat healthy and hold people accountable for the decisions they make without making excuses for them, I need therapy for my superiority complex?

I don't need spoon fed. Neither do people that live in poverty. You know, I know, the poor knows what's good for you and what's not. You don't need to spend 12 years in school to figure that out.

Your not special Last 12. Your lucky. Your are the product of your environment just as other humans are the product of theirs. You are not special or in any way better. Tough to swallow but once you do you'll be a kindler gentler human. And then have empathy. Almost Christ like if he existed. Ha

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. You'd almost have to be because I don't recall saying I was special or superior to anyone.

If you say "I know " so I eat better and those dummies can do the same you are indeed saying you are better. I'm simply saying you are the way you are due to the DNA that you were given and the environment to which you live. So rather think Bout why people are the way they are rather than looking down on others.

And always healthy to look at ones own shortcomings and one may see motivations to which we dog out others as the need for humans to get high. One persons porn is another's coca cola.

Cool thing we all get high on PJ.

Please show me the list where I referred to anyone as dummies.

yes, Last, it is a choice, but it's a choice based on many factors. it is not as simplistic as saying "people are lazy" or "they make bad decisions".

jeffbr said:

Thanks for the thread, Speedy. It was a good read. I am firmly in the camp that the majority of the poor cannot use poverty as an excuse for obesity since they're obviously spending money on some sort of food. There can be many other factors from lack of education about nutrition, to easily accessible quality food in their neighborhoods, to them placing a lower priority on nutrition in the face of other perceived higher-priority issues in their lives (paying the rent, keeping their families safe, etc...). As many have pointed out in this thread, eating healthy does not have to cost more. In fact, in most cases it will cost less than buying fast food or pre-packaged, processed food. The problem is that it takes conscious effort to make it less expensive. I shop sales. I buy meat after it has been marked down as a Manager's Special as it approaches expiration and take it right home to the freezer. I buy big bags of rice and beans. My wife shops coupons and takes advantage of sales to stock the pantry. We know what things should cost from experience, and won't overpay. We'll go without some things and wait for a sale. We plan our menus. Last week I cooked a number of dinners, each feeding a 3 adults and providing leftovers, for under $10 each. I made lettuce wraps, a Hungarian cauliflower soup, some German Rouladen, and chicken gyros last week for dinners. Probably once a week we I'll make a pizza crust (flour and water are cheap!), and repurpose some leftovers into some sort of pizza. The week before I had some leftover shredded chicken we used in burritos, and I made a Mexican chicken style pizza. Last week I repurposed some Asian style ground turkey we used for lettuce wraps into an Asian style pizza. It is fun to experiment, and a fun way to eat leftovers by turning them into something different. Those meals cost even less, since I'd already accounted for the cost in the original meal and I used minimal ingredients to create a new meal from it.

So many people in the thread making excuses for others. It does come down to accountability, and it takes effort. There will always be exceptions who really are in situations where they may not be able to eat nutritiously and cheaply, but diggin's article notwithstanding, there are plenty of families out there who could do a much, much better job with their menu planning and grocery shopping. I, too, have seen plenty of people pay for pre-made, processed, ready-to-eat or frozen meals with their government assistance. I look at their basket, I look at my basket, and I know who is eating better and more cheaply. The one paying more for their basket can least afford to, and could with some effort fix it. Those are the people I think most in this thread are talking about.

hedonist said:

To be clear, my questioning the choices some make to NOT educate themselves isn't equatable to my feeling or thinking I'm above anyone (nor does anyone need to prove their empathetic side).

Talk about judging. Sheesh!

No kidding. It is funny how those who accuse others of being judgmental are making some pretty big judgments themselves. The only way one forms an opinion is through judgment, isn't it? We have to make some sort of judgment about something in order to even have an opinion unless we're all sitting around reciting well-established, uncontested factual information to each other, which sounds pretty boring to me.

Jeff,there you go trying to make sense again.You about summed it up perfect.