There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about the beheadings in Mexico, but I assume that those being killed are involved in the drug cartels, while the folks being beheaded in the Middle East may be viewed at as innocents (reporters...). People killing innocents is more scary than people who kill for money. For example, I don't expect to get killed in gang violence since I'm not in a gang. Now, if go to some countries in the Middle East, I'll die or get kidnapped for being an American even though I mean no harm.
innocent people are being killed, in a gang or not.
and when you say this... People killing innocents is more scary than people who kill for money.
That makes sense to you?
I'm not as scared about someone in a gang killing a rival gang member in a turf war because.....I'm not interested in their turf. I'm not trying to sell drugs or whatever they are into. They kill for money so if I'm not in the way of their money I'm not going to be as scared of them.
Now, if there are gang members that killed indiscriminantly based on their ideology that everyone who doesn't follow them deserves to die, then those people I would be scared of.
I don't view gang members as innocents. They know what they are getting themselves into. As Christian family in Iraq that gets killed because they are Christian are the innocent ones who did nothing wrong. If they could be killed, then any of us could be killed if those killers make their way into the states. The gangs are here, but I'm not scared because I'm not in a gang. Gangs don't want to blow up the world trade center and take planes out of the sky. They want to sell drugs and if I don't buy or sell drugs, I'll be okay.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
bootlegger, do you support action against ISIS because they are 'evil' or because they are a direct threat to our interest(s) in the region?
They are a threat that is moving country to country and radicalizing people all over the world. That is why I support action against them.
Unfortunately there is no perfect answer. The US pulled back from the Middle East with Obama and it hasn't gotten better. I don't think the US is the cause of problems in the Middle East. The US's actions may just dictate what brutal group is afforded the opportunity to grow and which one is being targeted by the USA. We see what happens when the US tries to stay out of the region. Chaos.
You don't view the US as a cause of problems in the mid east? Sorry, they are a major cause of the problems, overthrowing democratically elected governments (example, Mosaddegh in 1953) or our support for the corrupt leaders in the mid east that oppress it's own people, our exportation of weapons to these countries all contribute to the madness.
So much of it has our 'Made in U.S.A' stamp on it. - Also this "They are a threat that is moving country to country and radicalizing people all over the world. That is why I support action against them. "
They are only able to turn people on their side, because they can use the US as an excuse, a common enemy.
We need to remove ourselves from it all and see where everything falls,
When the British Empire told Gandhi that if they left India, the country would face 'problems and chaos', The Mahatma replied, 'Yes, but they will be OUR problems'.
Nope. The US was created in 1776. If my understanding is correct, there was war and genocide before 1776. I will try to find an article to support this theory, but I'm fairly certain.
Yep, just found one. The Civil War....damn, that was after 1776....oh I will find an example and blow your freaking minds...stay tuned.....
Prepare to have your minds blown people....war before the US existed....Google don't fail me now. You already know everything about me, now just tell me a little world history.
Well, I'm sorry to say folks that I have confirmed there was no war before 1776. The revolutionary war was the first war on record. It is all the US's fault. Damn. We blew it. Utopia denied. We have tang though. The US gave us tang.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
bootlegger, do you support action against ISIS because they are 'evil' or because they are a direct threat to our interest(s) in the region?
They are a threat that is moving country to country and radicalizing people all over the world. That is why I support action against them.
Unfortunately there is no perfect answer. The US pulled back from the Middle East with Obama and it hasn't gotten better. I don't think the US is the cause of problems in the Middle East. The US's actions may just dictate what brutal group is afforded the opportunity to grow and which one is being targeted by the USA. We see what happens when the US tries to stay out of the region. Chaos.
You don't view the US as a cause of problems in the mid east? Sorry, they are a major cause of the problems, overthrowing democratically elected governments (example, Mosaddegh in 1953) or our support for the corrupt leaders in the mid east that oppress it's own people, our exportation of weapons to these countries all contribute to the madness.
So much of it has our 'Made in U.S.A' stamp on it. - Also this "They are a threat that is moving country to country and radicalizing people all over the world. That is why I support action against them. "
They are only able to turn people on their side, because they can use the US as an excuse, a common enemy.
We need to remove ourselves from it all and see where everything falls,
When the British Empire told Gandhi that if they left India, the country would face 'problems and chaos', The Mahatma replied, 'Yes, but they will be OUR problems'.
Nope. The US was created in 1776. If my understanding is correct, there was war and genocide before 1776. I will try to find an article to support this theory, but I'm fairly certain.
Yep, just found one. The Civil War....damn, that was after 1776....oh I will find an example and blow your freaking minds...stay tuned.....
What, on, earth...My mind is definitely blown now.
Well, I'm sorry to say folks that I have confirmed there was no war before 1776. The revolutionary war was the first war on record. It is all the US's fault. Damn. We blew it. Utopia denied. We have tang though. The US gave us tang.
I think I've entered the twilight zone...someone please hand me a cup of fluoridated water, I need to lower my IQ to follow whats happening right now.
You act like the USA is the reason for all of the wars and conflicts in the world., like the Middle East would be this peaceful utopia if the USA or the West never got involved. There was war and barbarism long before the USA and will be long after.
The USA isn't perfect. Sometimes it does things for great motives, and sometimes it does things for not the purest motives. But that doesn't necessarily mean it should then stand down against ISIS or IS or whatever if the right thing to do is get rid of them. IS is evil. It is evil. They are using US intervention or whatever excuse to ultimately feed their sadist personalities.
You really need to do some study regarding these Mexican Drug Cartels'. You really need to educate yourself more about them.
I say that humbly.
That is why I said I didn't know much about it in my post, and perhaps the general opinion of Americans is similar to mine (in that I think it is is all cartel people getting killed), and so they aren't as fired up about it (although I think we are all horrified by it).
I think I've entered the twilight zone...someone please hand me a cup of fluoridated water, I need to lower my IQ to follow whats happening right now.
You act like the USA is the reason for all of the wars and conflicts in the world., like the Middle East would be this peaceful utopia if the USA or the West never got involved. There was war and barbarism long before the USA and will be long after.
And I've drunk a shitload of tang tonight.
Sorry, but you have not read my posts properly and/or taken enough time to understand them.
I've never said that the mid east would be some Utopia without US hegemony.
It will have problems, but it will be their problems. They dont need our influence.
I've never said that the U.S is responsible for all the wars and conflicts in the world.
Now, If I have said something that is incorrect, then simply prove it, and I'll correct myself, I care about facts.
Sober up from the (orange?) tang, then come back and speak to me.
You really need to do some study regarding these Mexican Drug Cartels'. You really need to educate yourself more about them.
I say that humbly.
That is why I said I didn't know much about it in my post, and perhaps the general opinion of Americans is similar to mine (in that I think it is is all cartel people getting killed), and so they aren't as fired up about it (although I think we are all horrified by it).
Sorry I was not arguing that, And I dont know nearly enough about them myself, but I know that they have killed people who were not in line with them, innocents etc..
I have a friend from Mexico who is quite near to this.
I think I've entered the twilight zone...someone please hand me a cup of fluoridated water, I need to lower my IQ to follow whats happening right now.
You act like the USA is the reason for all of the wars and conflicts in the world., like the Middle East would be this peaceful utopia if the USA or the West never got involved. There was war and barbarism long before the USA and will be long after.
And I've drunk a shitload of tang tonight.
Sorry, but you have not read my posts properly and/or taken enough time to understand them.
I've never said that the mid east would be some Utopia without US hegemony.
It will have problems, but it will be their problems. They dont need our influence.
I've never said that the U.S is responsible for all the wars and conflicts in the world.
Now, If I have said something that is incorrect, then simply prove it, and I'll correct myself, I care about facts.
Sober up from the (orange?) tang, then come back and speak to me.
Does the US get involved in Middle East conflicts? Yep. Unfortunately, a lot of times in the Middle East there aren't a lot of good guys to support.
Hypothetical: Look at Syria. The US can't side with Assad, so they would most likely support the rebels. Say the US sends arms to the rebels to topple Assad. The rebels are victorious. Next thing you know the rebels become worse than Assad. Now, is this the US's fault, or is it the fact that the US is forced to choose between the lesser of two evils at the moment?
So, you might say the US is at fault for the rebels gaining power, when in fact the original regime was evil too. So you are a damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator. Sure, he kept the factions in line, but he was nonetheless brutal and evil. The US created a mess in Iraq, but if we want to say everything was just fine before the US got there and villify the US for creating ISIS when it would have formed regardless in some other form is ridiculous.
The world will get cleaned up when it doesn't rely on the US to police it. For now, no one can police ISIS except the US, so we must act.
The US pulled back from the Middle East with Obama
No it didn't. For starters the U.S continued to stand alone in the World in its support of Israel's crimes against the Palestinians. It also helped overthrow the democratically elected government of Egypt.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,959
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
The USA isn't perfect. Sometimes it does things for great motives, and sometimes it does things for not the purest motives. But that doesn't necessarily mean it should then stand down against ISIS or IS or whatever if the right thing to do is get rid of them. IS is evil. It is evil. They are using US intervention or whatever excuse to ultimately feed their sadist personalities.
No country is perfect, We just need a country/state that puts people over profit, but we (humans) are greedy, we consume, and then consume more...Do you know what the fastest growing religion in the world is? Consumerism.
We take and don't give back, is that really our nature?...Perhaps, but we have advanced minds, the ability to think...to think Critically...! (and clearly)
The U.S needs to be content, we need to be content with what we have, the U.S expands the empire, because they are not 'content' and have fear, they fear that unless they have The ultimate Control of Affairs, someone else will come and grow more powerful and take over. It's fear,lack of trust.
That's what we have become, a people who do not trust...People. It is poetically sad. - We have messed with Iraq enough, we should really step back and let the people of the mid-east deal with it's problems, they don't need more U.S intervention. Good Motives or not.
But we should not play like we care about the refugees and innocents, not after we have destroyed generations of babies with the chemicals we dropped and the dictators and war lords we back.
Iraq is about protection of our interests, So lets just call it what it is. This 'we rescued the poor people on the mountain' excuse.
I get ISIS is dangerous, not because of the innocents they kill, but because they pose a threat to our ultimate goal, which is control, dominance.
So, let's deal with ISIS, cause they are bad. Then lets deal with ourselves, let's stop support for all the corrupt leaders and governments, lets stop the sending of arms to dictators...tyrants,
Lets not back African War Lords, lets remove ourselves from these lands, lets bring all our troops home, lets spend money on us, here, people are dying here, on our streets.
I will say something about the cartels...it is without doubt a fair analogy to the system of oppression used in the Middle East, minus the border crossing stuff. Even if they were ideologues, they would have no hope of overrunning the US...that's just silly. Esp when considering, like with so many other criminal and terror groups - the US already own them! Yes, terrorists could kill your economy, and drug cartels could do that too...so could your own bankers, corps, and politicians. They ARE doing that.
The US got more involved in the Mexican drug war by way of a $10b (think I have the numbers right) loan to fight it. That money was used by the Mexican government to favour one cartel over the other....as if the US wouldn't have green lighted this approach to use of their funding...and if you know anything about American drug policy - these moves were made to control the drug trade, not stop it....these policies resulted in tens of thousands of deaths - most of them innocent, desperate migrants forced to work or hired by the cartels. (Again, working off the top of my head here)...the whole thing started over changes in cocaine shipping routes from Columbia - the bulk of their coke never came thru Mexico until US funding and policy changes in Columbia made it happen. Those migrant workers? Mostly people who lost their jobs when nafta came into effect. I posted some lengthy articles about all of this in a thread about it when the violence was peaking, do a search if interested.
The US is the worlds biggest drug consumer (and everything else consumer), and the worlds biggest drug war enforcer. So don't try to give me some sob story about everyone being against you and how you always feel like people are blaming you for everything - that Mexico was always a shit hole or whatever. Again - it was policy funded and backed by the US that exacerbated existing problems to benefit their interests only, fuck the locals. You want to bleat on about the good you do, and your responsibility as sole super power and biggest consumer block - then own the bad with the good. Stop trying to absolve your accountability by saying everyone else is as bad, and it's always been that way. It's a straw man, and we don't know how any other system would have unfolded thru history. So don't assume things couldn't be better, even if you do see the US as only 'imperfect'.
I think I've entered the twilight zone...someone please hand me a cup of fluoridated water, I need to lower my IQ to follow whats happening right now.
You act like the USA is the reason for all of the wars and conflicts in the world., like the Middle East would be this peaceful utopia if the USA or the West never got involved. There was war and barbarism long before the USA and will be long after.
And I've drunk a shitload of tang tonight.
Sorry, but you have not read my posts properly and/or taken enough time to understand them.
I've never said that the mid east would be some Utopia without US hegemony.
It will have problems, but it will be their problems. They dont need our influence.
I've never said that the U.S is responsible for all the wars and conflicts in the world.
Now, If I have said something that is incorrect, then simply prove it, and I'll correct myself, I care about facts.
Sober up from the (orange?) tang, then come back and speak to me.
Does the US get involved in Middle East conflicts? Yep. Unfortunately, a lot of times in the Middle East there aren't a lot of good guys to support.
Hypothetical: Look at Syria. The US can't side with Assad, so they would most likely support the rebels. Say the US sends arms to the rebels to topple Assad. The rebels are victorious. Next thing you know the rebels become worse than Assad. Now, is this the US's fault, or is it the fact that the US is forced to choose between the lesser of two evils at the moment?
So, you might say the US is at fault for the rebels gaining power, when in fact the original regime was evil too. So you are a damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator. Sure, he kept the factions in line, but he was nonetheless brutal and evil. The US created a mess in Iraq, but if we want to say everything was just fine before the US got there and villify the US for creating ISIS when it would have formed regardless in some other form is ridiculous.
The world will get cleaned up when it doesn't rely on the US to police it. For now, no one can police ISIS except the US, so we must act.
The world relies on the US to police it? Hahaha....that's funny shit. Everyone knows capitalists see conflict as opportunity, and whichever side is willing to sell the most of their country gets that support. You see these people being promoted on tv and it is always framed as victims asking for the US to bring their benevolent intervention...
Your hypothetical doesn't elaborate on the 'damned if we don't' at all....it just says we can't support Assad. No one asked you to support Assad, so that isn't 'damned if you don't'.....if You can't even see that flaw in your thinking, and you are so black and white as to say something as polarizing as that phrase, then there isn't much more to talk about. Obviously not being involved at all ( the real 'don't') isn't an option. Not because of responsibility and the heart strings your tv pulled, but because the US must maintain hegemony and the role you cherish as world police.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Fucken GREAT question Thirty!
No no no. Where else we gonna get our drugs from?
The Tang factories, of course! :-D
I've been following this thread over its course...and I apologize if inappropriate but I just love this.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Fucken GREAT question Thirty!
No no no. Where else we gonna get our drugs from?
The Tang factories, of course! :-D
)
Tang is a helluva drug.
Anyone try the Valencia orange drink at Starbucks? I'm addicted to it. But I've been told it's a glorified tang drink. And u know what, it really is, but I fucken love it.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Fucken GREAT question Thirty!
No no no. Where else we gonna get our drugs from?
The Tang factories, of course! :-D
)
Tang is a helluva drug.
Anyone try the Valencia orange drink at Starbucks? I'm addicted to it. But I've been told it's a glorified tang drink. And u know what, it really is, but I fucken love it.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Fucken GREAT question Thirty!
No no no. Where else we gonna get our drugs from?
The Tang factories, of course! :-D
)
Tang is a helluva drug.
Anyone try the Valencia orange drink at Starbucks? I'm addicted to it. But I've been told it's a glorified tang drink. And u know what, it really is, but I fucken love it.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Fucken GREAT question Thirty!
No no no. Where else we gonna get our drugs from?
Another great question Mickey!
badbrains, my friend, we may just be known for our weed up here, but you're always welcome here in Canada for oodles of drugs.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I would like to see other countries step in against these monsters, the US can't do everything. The way these fuckers are behaving, murdering and torturing innocents, kidnapping children it must be stopped. Innocent civilians should get protection wherever in the world things like this is happening. I have no good answer how but other countries should work together.
I would like to see other countries step in against these monsters, the US can't do everything. The way these fuckers are behaving, murdering and torturing innocents, it must stop. Innocent civilians should get protection wherever in the world things like this is happening.
I would like to see other countries step in against these monsters, the US can't do everything. The way these fuckers are behaving, murdering and torturing innocents, it must stop. Innocent civilians should get protection wherever in the world things like this is happening.
Sure, everyone but the Palestinians.
The innocent civilian palestines should also be protected, this world is so messed up.
Comments
Now, if there are gang members that killed indiscriminantly based on their ideology that everyone who doesn't follow them deserves to die, then those people I would be scared of.
I don't view gang members as innocents. They know what they are getting themselves into. As Christian family in Iraq that gets killed because they are Christian are the innocent ones who did nothing wrong. If they could be killed, then any of us could be killed if those killers make their way into the states. The gangs are here, but I'm not scared because I'm not in a gang. Gangs don't want to blow up the world trade center and take planes out of the sky. They want to sell drugs and if I don't buy or sell drugs, I'll be okay.
Yep, just found one. The Civil War....damn, that was after 1776....oh I will find an example and blow your freaking minds...stay tuned.....
I say that humbly.
And I've drunk a shitload of tang tonight.
I've never said that the mid east would be some Utopia without US hegemony.
It will have problems, but it will be their problems. They dont need our influence.
I've never said that the U.S is responsible for all the wars and conflicts in the world.
Now, If I have said something that is incorrect, then simply prove it, and I'll correct myself, I care about facts.
Sober up from the (orange?) tang, then come back and speak to me.
I have a friend from Mexico who is quite near to this.
Hypothetical:
Look at Syria. The US can't side with Assad, so they would most likely support the rebels. Say the US sends arms to the rebels to topple Assad. The rebels are victorious. Next thing you know the rebels become worse than Assad. Now, is this the US's fault, or is it the fact that the US is forced to choose between the lesser of two evils at the moment?
So, you might say the US is at fault for the rebels gaining power, when in fact the original regime was evil too. So you are a damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator. Sure, he kept the factions in line, but he was nonetheless brutal and evil. The US created a mess in Iraq, but if we want to say everything was just fine before the US got there and villify the US for creating ISIS when it would have formed regardless in some other form is ridiculous.
The world will get cleaned up when it doesn't rely on the US to police it. For now, no one can police ISIS except the US, so we must act.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
We take and don't give back, is that really our nature?...Perhaps, but we have advanced minds, the ability to think...to think Critically...! (and clearly)
The U.S needs to be content, we need to be content with what we have, the U.S expands the empire, because they are not 'content' and have fear, they fear that unless they have The ultimate Control of Affairs, someone else will come and grow more powerful and take over. It's fear,lack of trust.
That's what we have become, a people who do not trust...People. It is poetically sad.
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We have messed with Iraq enough, we should really step back and let the people of the mid-east deal with it's problems, they don't need more U.S intervention. Good Motives or not.
But we should not play like we care about the refugees and innocents, not after we have destroyed generations of babies with the chemicals we dropped and the dictators and war lords we back.
Iraq is about protection of our interests, So lets just call it what it is. This 'we rescued the poor people on the mountain' excuse.
I get ISIS is dangerous, not because of the innocents they kill, but because they pose a threat to our ultimate goal, which is control, dominance.
So, let's deal with ISIS, cause they are bad. Then lets deal with ourselves, let's stop support for all the corrupt leaders and governments, lets stop the sending of arms to dictators...tyrants,
Lets not back African War Lords, lets remove ourselves from these lands, lets bring all our troops home, lets spend money on us, here, people are dying here, on our streets.
If we really care about, peace, justice, truth.
The US got more involved in the Mexican drug war by way of a $10b (think I have the numbers right) loan to fight it. That money was used by the Mexican government to favour one cartel over the other....as if the US wouldn't have green lighted this approach to use of their funding...and if you know anything about American drug policy - these moves were made to control the drug trade, not stop it....these policies resulted in tens of thousands of deaths - most of them innocent, desperate migrants forced to work or hired by the cartels. (Again, working off the top of my head here)...the whole thing started over changes in cocaine shipping routes from Columbia - the bulk of their coke never came thru Mexico until US funding and policy changes in Columbia made it happen. Those migrant workers? Mostly people who lost their jobs when nafta came into effect. I posted some lengthy articles about all of this in a thread about it when the violence was peaking, do a search if interested.
The US is the worlds biggest drug consumer (and everything else consumer), and the worlds biggest drug war enforcer. So don't try to give me some sob story about everyone being against you and how you always feel like people are blaming you for everything - that Mexico was always a shit hole or whatever. Again - it was policy funded and backed by the US that exacerbated existing problems to benefit their interests only, fuck the locals. You want to bleat on about the good you do, and your responsibility as sole super power and biggest consumer block - then own the bad with the good. Stop trying to absolve your accountability by saying everyone else is as bad, and it's always been that way. It's a straw man, and we don't know how any other system would have unfolded thru history. So don't assume things couldn't be better, even if you do see the US as only 'imperfect'. The world relies on the US to police it? Hahaha....that's funny shit. Everyone knows capitalists see conflict as opportunity, and whichever side is willing to sell the most of their country gets that support. You see these people being promoted on tv and it is always framed as victims asking for the US to bring their benevolent intervention...
Your hypothetical doesn't elaborate on the 'damned if we don't' at all....it just says we can't support Assad. No one asked you to support Assad, so that isn't 'damned if you don't'.....if You can't even see that flaw in your thinking, and you are so black and white as to say something as polarizing as that phrase, then there isn't much more to talk about. Obviously not being involved at all ( the real 'don't') isn't an option. Not because of responsibility and the heart strings your tv pulled, but because the US must maintain hegemony and the role you cherish as world police.
Now back to our regularly-scheduled programming.
Tang is a helluva drug.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1