I think there are probably around an equal percentage of nutty extremists within each ethnic/religious group.
That's one of the reasons why us Jews get so defensive - cuz there's so damn few of us.
Not an excuse for hurting people though.
You think so? You don't think that Islamic extremism is on a different level when compared to most other ethnic or religious groups? It seems to me like it's a bigger problem than in other cases.....
Answer me this: which other religion has had their geographic base involved in the kind of violent repression and foreign intervention, for generations, that Islam has? Which other religion has seen their geographic base lose decades of advances in science, infrastructure, education, healthcare, and art/culture due to violence and sanctions? Look at the situations in Iraq, Palestine, and Syria. How long will it take those countries to get these socio-economic metrics back to the standards they were at just a few years ago? Do you think this has no affect on the psyche of these people? People talk as if terrorism and religious extremism are created in a fucking vacuum. I wonder how this poll would break down based on economics and exposure to violence? Violence and religious extremism are refuges of the poor, desperate, and victimized. I'm sure you know there is a correlation between these things....At this point, things are pretty comfy in the US and Canada...But do you think there would be a rise in christian extremism if our economies completely fell apart and internal wars influenced by foreign powers became the norm? Of course there would. How self-righteous of so called christian nations (along with all of us agnostic/atheists), who are often somewhat responsible for conditions in the middle east, to sit in our comfortable opulence, feeling no empathy, nor accountability for our own actions and their repercussions, then blame it all on religion. This comfortable opulence comes on the backs of less powerful nations....neo liberals robbing them of their resources with their unfair trade and banking, neo cons with their armies and mercenaries...we've shipped slavery abroad so we can 'watch for falling prices'. Violence and religious extremism are the price we pay for our own extreme, violent policies. Me you, you me, it's all related.
I think there are probably around an equal percentage of nutty extremists within each ethnic/religious group.
That's one of the reasons why us Jews get so defensive - cuz there's so damn few of us.
Not an excuse for hurting people though.
You think so? You don't think that Islamic extremism is on a different level when compared to most other ethnic or religious groups? It seems to me like it's a bigger problem than in other cases.....
Answer me this: which other religion has had their geographic base involved in the kind of violent repression and foreign intervention, for generations, that Islam has? Which other religion has seen their geographic base lose decades of advances in science, infrastructure, education, healthcare, and art/culture due to violence and sanctions? Look at the situations in Iraq, Palestine, and Syria. How long will it take those countries to get these socio-economic metrics back to the standards they were at just a few years ago? Do you think this has no affect on the psyche of these people? People talk as if terrorism and religious extremism are created in a fucking vacuum. I wonder how this poll would break down based on economics and exposure to violence? Violence and religious extremism are refuges of the poor, desperate, and victimized. I'm sure you know there is a correlation between these things....At this point, things are pretty comfy in the US and Canada...But do you think there would be a rise in christian extremism if our economies completely fell apart and internal wars influenced by foreign powers became the norm? Of course there would. How self-righteous of so called christian nations (along with all of us agnostic/atheists), who are often somewhat responsible for conditions in the middle east, to sit in our comfortable opulence, feeling no empathy, nor accountability for our own actions and their repercussions, then blame it all on religion. This comfortable opulence comes on the backs of less powerful nations....neo liberals robbing them of their resources with their unfair trade and banking, neo cons with their armies and mercenaries...we've shipped slavery abroad so we can 'watch for falling prices'. Violence and religious extremism are the price we pay for our own extreme, violent policies. Me you, you me, it's all related.
Wow wow wow =D> I def COULDNT have said it any better. Real shit right there.
Not so sure that religion has anything to do with our treatment of each other. It's just basic evolved human nature.
Think all humans have the same wants and needs. Sooner we recognize that the sooner we can tell those that want us to sacrifice for their gains to fk off.
I think there are probably around an equal percentage of nutty extremists within each ethnic/religious group.
That's one of the reasons why us Jews get so defensive - cuz there's so damn few of us.
Not an excuse for hurting people though.
You think so? You don't think that Islamic extremism is on a different level when compared to most other ethnic or religious groups? It seems to me like it's a bigger problem than in other cases.....
Answer me this: which other religion has had their geographic base involved in the kind of violent repression and foreign intervention, for generations, that Islam has? Which other religion has seen their geographic base lose decades of advances in science, infrastructure, education, healthcare, and art/culture due to violence and sanctions? Look at the situations in Iraq, Palestine, and Syria. How long will it take those countries to get these socio-economic metrics back to the standards they were at just a few years ago? Do you think this has no affect on the psyche of these people? People talk as if terrorism and religious extremism are created in a fucking vacuum. I wonder how this poll would break down based on economics and exposure to violence? Violence and religious extremism are refuges of the poor, desperate, and victimized. I'm sure you know there is a correlation between these things....At this point, things are pretty comfy in the US and Canada...But do you think there would be a rise in christian extremism if our economies completely fell apart and internal wars influenced by foreign powers became the norm? Of course there would. How self-righteous of so called christian nations (along with all of us agnostic/atheists), who are often somewhat responsible for conditions in the middle east, to sit in our comfortable opulence, feeling no empathy, nor accountability for our own actions and their repercussions, then blame it all on religion. This comfortable opulence comes on the backs of less powerful nations....neo liberals robbing them of their resources with their unfair trade and banking, neo cons with their armies and mercenaries...we've shipped slavery abroad so we can 'watch for falling prices'. Violence and religious extremism are the price we pay for our own extreme, violent policies. Me you, you me, it's all related.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
Do these reporters and photo journalist who go to these places know what their getting into? Yes they do. They choose to go. My sympathy for the families of these reporters but these reporters know what their getting into, they know the risk and they take on that risk ... probably for the one great story or picture they hope will bring them fame.
So if no media or journalists goes to troubled areas...is this a step in the right direction? Who will have most to lose on that? yes, they risk their lives for the world to know and should get credit for it.
I'm saying they know the risk, just no need for people in the west to act so out raged. You're entering a war zone, bad things happen in war zones.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
or.......never mind, but why don't you tell us all about the koran and how it's interpited by the peaceful muslims because to be honest with you I havn't heard too much that sounds good.
Godfather.
Did you know Christians interpret the Bible differently? And did you know some interpret it so differently that they kill over it? Ever hear of the KKK or neo Nazis? Before slavery ended, most people used the Bible to justify slavery.
In conclusion, a sacred text is interpreted various ways, most peaceful. But there are a handful that kill for it because they believe that is what the text means.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
ISIS is bringing in $2M/day through control of and through black market oil sales.
Where are you getting that stat? They're not the only ones profiting from the black market in oil....twice now, a Kurdish tanker has been tracked to the coast of Israel before turning off it's satellite equipment. Then turning it back on with less draft (lighter load)....That's 2 million barrels of oil https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13627-kurdish-oil-tanker-spotted-off-israel
Is there a chance this is another case of blaming the bad guy for the bad things 'we' are doing?
or.......never mind, but why don't you tell us all about the koran and how it's interpited by the peaceful muslims because to be honest with you I havn't heard too much that sounds good.
Godfather.
Did you know Christians interpret the Bible differently? And did you know some interpret it so differently that they kill over it? Ever hear of the KKK or neo Nazis? Before slavery ended, most people used the Bible to justify slavery.
In conclusion, a sacred text is interpreted various ways, most peaceful. But there are a handful that kill for it because they believe that is what the text means.
I know but that was not the topic of this thread, have I ever heard of the KKK or the Neo Nazis ???....I have been appointed by popular vote the village racist/bigot of course I have heard of these dirt bags hahhhahhahhahhahah.
Beheaded by extremists trying to hijack religion in response to shortsighted US foreign policy.
Theres your title.
Trying to hijack a religion? So far I'd say mission accomplished in the middle east.
Several years ago it was the Arab Spring and lots of people posting here were rejoicing that the people were rising up and dismantling US backed dictators.
Now that the Arab Spring has completely back-fired and crazy people are seizing the reigns of power, it is once again the US fault.
Beheaded by extremists trying to hijack religion in response to shortsighted US foreign policy.
Theres your title.
Trying to hijack a religion? So far I'd say mission accomplished in the middle east.
Several years ago it was the Arab Spring and lots of people posting here were rejoicing that the people were rising up and dismantling US backed dictators.
Now that the Arab Spring has completely back-fired and crazy people are seizing the reigns of power, it is once again the US fault.
No surprise here that you're the first to come and post this. 1.6 billion Muslims with 99.999999999999% who are PEACEFUL, but let's forget that and talk about a group that our military can wipe out in 3 mins. So what's the issue? Why not take them out? Why keep them around? Oh ya, we need a bad guy to keep the war machine going. Where's your crying GF on gaza? Why aren't you up and arms, screaming about all the dead INNOCENT children on the streets of Gaza. Shit, 3 were murdered just last night. Why no rage from you? Oh, that's right, cuz they're Muslim so it's OK to kill them. Pages and pages of slaughters happening against innocent civilians in gaza and GF posts something about Muslims beheading a journalist. Did you hear his voice, Sounds British to me. Mite want to attack England next for sending these guys over there.
The Muslim world should be doing a LOT more to quell radicalism. As it is, they do almost nothing. I don't understand why they don't. These radical Muslims hurt them all, yet there is close to no action against it within their own communities.
I do agree with you and I've talked about it in other threads here that I was concerned that there wasn't enough outrage(at least visible and public) by the moderate Muslim populations and governments.
In numbers the Muslim world could move mountains if they all were on the same page.
That last sentence, very interesting,
It'strue, all the 'Moderate Muslims' united, indeedcould move mountains...Just like many other large (in number) groups could do...A UnitedAfrica, that would be something. Imagine all the 'African Nations' united, It would surely yield great results for the people of 'Africa'.
Sounds good right? Sure...But these things would be devastating to the established Power Structure, and this Power Structure is largely responsible for keeping other nations and people down, separate and 'fighting'.
Any powerful group is a potential threat to us (the USA), and a group is even more of a threat when that group does not fully adhere to the way things are, or our interpretation or feelings towards the way things 'should' be.
We want 'peace' in Iraq, but what kind of 'peace' is that? A peace that continues to uphold our predominant influence, no doubt.
Protecting ourinterests...And as it's been said many times before, what about our silence? and our lack of Outrage at the systems in place causing so much death and violence, strife. 'we' support these things, The people 'we' vote for, upholding this, no wonder is it said that 'history is cyclical', it's because we don't seem to learn from our mistakes and we continue to let greed influence us, greed deludes us, makes us want more and more power, power is had by gaining control, Control by whatever means, regardless of the consequences. (and the consequences? The results?...The breeding of more of the same, hate, violence, death, bloodshed)
Every 'thinking' person should be Outraged at the State of Affairs, at what's going on, it's all connected,
After ISIS, then what? What really has changed? They will be replaced, and that next group we'll also have to destroy, cause, you know, they will be even more 'evil' than ISIS. It goes on and on.
We paved the path for ISIS, then are sickened and shocked when our chickens come home to roost - , when we see the consequences of our actions play out in such horrific fashion, sure then we wake up a little, only to go back to sleep and continue building the same path that led/leads to the same old place, more bloodshed.
What do you think we should do? We can't give up fighting against terrorists, they will not stop and they are a threat to the whole world.
"We can't give up fighting against terrorists"?...Well We surely can't continue creating terrorist at the same time as well. Which is exactly what our policy has done/is doing.
The only reason we dislike these terrorists is because they are a direct threat to our interests. We support other 'terrorist' as long as they are in line with our interests.
It's hypocrisy. We don't do it for the innocents, if that was the case, we would not be supporting all these corrupt leaders/groups around the world.
Many African leaders we support chop peoples heads off too, but as long as the heads come off with our (essential) backing/and or indifference, it all seems 'fine'.
We need to take a step back from our roles around the world and focus on helping our own country be strong in ways that are not destructive to other nations/people.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Beheaded by extremists trying to hijack religion in response to shortsighted US foreign policy.
Theres your title.
Trying to hijack a religion? So far I'd say mission accomplished in the middle east.
Several years ago it was the Arab Spring and lots of people posting here were rejoicing that the people were rising up and dismantling US backed dictators.
Now that the Arab Spring has completely back-fired and crazy people are seizing the reigns of power, it is once again the US fault.
Right.........
Right ......
Anywho, I'm not saying Muslims are evil, but we shouldn't sugarcoat ISIS and saying they are a small minority. If Muslim extremism is as small as you claim it is, the KKK would currently occupy a vast majority of the US southeast.
Beheaded by extremists trying to hijack religion in response to shortsighted US foreign policy.
Theres your title.
Trying to hijack a religion? So far I'd say mission accomplished in the middle east.
Several years ago it was the Arab Spring and lots of people posting here were rejoicing that the people were rising up and dismantling US backed dictators.
Now that the Arab Spring has completely back-fired and crazy people are seizing the reigns of power, it is once again the US fault.
Right.........
Right ......
Anywho, I'm not saying Muslims are evil, but we shouldn't sugarcoat ISIS and saying they are a small minority. If Muslim extremism is as small as you claim it is, the KKK would currently occupy a vast majority of the US southeast.
There's 17,000 members of IS, and I've actually heard it today on the news that it mite be 29,000. I would say that's a minority yes.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
bootlegger, do you support action against ISIS because they are 'evil' or because they are a direct threat to our interest(s) in the region?
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Fucken GREAT question Thirty!
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Fucken GREAT question Thirty!
Yes, excellent question. I'm guessing we would only be outraged if a Mexican crossed the border and beheaded someone.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
bootlegger, do you support action against ISIS because they are 'evil' or because they are a direct threat to our interest(s) in the region?
They are a threat that is moving country to country and radicalizing people all over the world. That is why I support action against them.
Unfortunately there is no perfect answer. The US pulled back from the Middle East with Obama and it hasn't gotten better. I don't think the US is the cause of problems in the Middle East. The US's actions may just dictate what brutal group is afforded the opportunity to grow and which one is being targeted by the USA. We see what happens when the US tries to stay out of the region. Chaos.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about the beheadings in Mexico, but I assume that those being killed are involved in the drug cartels, while the folks being beheaded in the Middle East may be viewed at as innocents (reporters...). People killing innocents is more scary than people who kill for money. For example, I don't expect to get killed in gang violence since I'm not in a gang. Now, if go to some countries in the Middle East, I'll die or get kidnapped for being an American even though I mean no harm.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about the beheadings in Mexico, but I assume that those being killed are involved in the drug cartels, while the folks being beheaded in the Middle East may be viewed at as innocents (reporters...). People killing innocents is more scary than people who kill for money. For example, I don't expect to get killed in gang violence since I'm not in a gang. Now, if go to some countries in the Middle East, I'll die or get kidnapped for being an American even though I mean no harm.
You do know that IS has "beheaded" more MUSLIMS then Americans? And in Mexico, it's all fair game for them. They've beheaded women there.
Regarding the "moderate Muslims need to do more to combat extremism" line:
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
I wasn't talking about Muslims in the Middle East only. I was talking about Muslims all over the world. I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Can you post a link to an article to support your claims of Muslim friends? And if you do post one, I will say it is full of lies and then post a link to "antiwar.com" and claim it is unbiased.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
bootlegger, do you support action against ISIS because they are 'evil' or because they are a direct threat to our interest(s) in the region?
They are a threat that is moving country to country and radicalizing people all over the world. That is why I support action against them.
Unfortunately there is no perfect answer. The US pulled back from the Middle East with Obama and it hasn't gotten better. I don't think the US is the cause of problems in the Middle East. The US's actions may just dictate what brutal group is afforded the opportunity to grow and which one is being targeted by the USA. We see what happens when the US tries to stay out of the region. Chaos.
You don't view the US as a cause of problems in the mid east? Sorry, they are a major cause of the problems, overthrowing democratically elected governments (example, Mosaddegh in 1953) or our support for the corrupt leaders in the mid east that oppress it's own people, our exportation of weapons to these countries all contribute to the madness.
So much of it has our 'Made in U.S.A' stamp on it. - Also this "They are a threat that is moving country to country and radicalizing people all over the world. That is why I support action against them. "
They are only able to turn people on their side, because they can use the US as an excuse, a common enemy.
We need to remove ourselves from it all and see where everything falls,
When the British Empire told Gandhi that if they left India, the country would face 'problems and chaos', The Mahatma replied, 'Yes, but they will be OUR problems'.
There have been an awful lot of beheadings and mutilations in Mexico the past decade.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about the beheadings in Mexico, but I assume that those being killed are involved in the drug cartels, while the folks being beheaded in the Middle East may be viewed at as innocents (reporters...). People killing innocents is more scary than people who kill for money. For example, I don't expect to get killed in gang violence since I'm not in a gang. Now, if go to some countries in the Middle East, I'll die or get kidnapped for being an American even though I mean no harm.
innocent people are being killed, in a gang or not.
and when you say this... People killing innocents is more scary than people who kill for money.
Comments
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5697160?utm_hp_ref=tw
Me you, you me, it's all related.
Not so sure that religion has anything to do with our treatment of each other. It's just basic evolved human nature.
Think all humans have the same wants and needs. Sooner we recognize that the sooner we can tell those that want us to sacrifice for their gains to fk off.
And media is the most effective tool for control.
I think it's very condescending for someone in a position of privilege to talk to Muslims living in the Middle East this way. Tell me, what are YOU doing to combat Western imperial policies that allow for extremism to grow? As Drowned Out accurately mentioned, there is a long history of imperial and colonial practices by Western powers in the Middle East/South Asia/North Africa that allowed extremism to grow. And I often find on this board that many of you end up supporting some of these policies because there is a clear refusal to actually engage with history. How did the Middle East become the way it did? What are these extremists a product of? What are they actually rebelling against? If we continue to just ignore legitimate grievances of Muslims living in the Middle East and confront our policies that continue to contribute to the disenfranchisement of these people, that continue to support dictators and settler-colonies that occupy and ethnically cleanse other people, then there will naturally be movements that grow to counter this. And so long as the US and its allies continue to fight this (or pretend to) with the same policies that created them in the first place, then where do you think the "moderate" Muslims are left? In between armed thugs and the world's biggest military, without the ability to even live normal lives.
Meanwhile, here you all are saying why aren't they doing enough. How about you do something? It's ironic to me that some of you even openly acknowledge that our policies created ISIS, but then support US military involvement in northern Iraq because "we created the mess [by intervening militarily] so now we have to fix it [by intervening militarily]." It's just interesting that there does not appear to be any critical thinking here. Any serious questioning of past policies specifically with regards to how they reflect our future engagement with this part of the world, is just nonexistent. And then we just blame the victims for not "doing enough" without actually being aware of the various debates going on in the Middle East, the trends and movements that exist there, how deep our own involvement is, etc etc. Nope, it's just "them" that aren't doing enough.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
And did you know some interpret it so differently that they kill over it? Ever hear of the KKK or neo Nazis?
Before slavery ended, most people used the Bible to justify slavery.
In conclusion, a sacred text is interpreted various ways, most peaceful. But there are a handful that kill for it because they believe that is what the text means.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
They're not the only ones profiting from the black market in oil....twice now, a Kurdish tanker has been tracked to the coast of Israel before turning off it's satellite equipment. Then turning it back on with less draft (lighter load)....That's 2 million barrels of oil
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13627-kurdish-oil-tanker-spotted-off-israel
Is there a chance this is another case of blaming the bad guy for the bad things 'we' are doing?
Godfather.
Several years ago it was the Arab Spring and lots of people posting here were rejoicing that the people were rising up and dismantling US backed dictators.
Now that the Arab Spring has completely back-fired and crazy people are seizing the reigns of power, it is once again the US fault.
The only reason we dislike these terrorists is because they are a direct threat to our interests. We support other 'terrorist' as long as they are in line with our interests.
It's hypocrisy. We don't do it for the innocents, if that was the case, we would not be supporting all these corrupt leaders/groups around the world.
Many African leaders we support chop peoples heads off too, but as long as the heads come off with our (essential) backing/and or indifference, it all seems 'fine'.
We need to take a step back from our roles around the world and focus on helping our own country be strong in ways that are not destructive to other nations/people.
I can't remember fuck. Are you Muslim? If you are, then you have a different perspective on this thinking than the Muslims I've spoken to about it. I have seen only complete agreement from Muslims about how the Muslim world needs to do way, way more to combat Islamic extremism all over the world. The Muslims I've personally spoken to about it were: 1) 2nd generation Canadian, 2) Muslim of Indian decent raised and living in Thailand after being educated in Canada, 3) Iraqi refugee in Canada (his father was a member of the Iraqi communist party and escaped persecution with his family in the 1990s), 4) a Muslim born and raised in the UK, 5) a particularly devout Muslim from Bangladesh, 6) a Nigerian Muslim in Canada as a mature international student. Every one of these 6 people said that they completely agreed that the Muslim world has to do more to counter extremism, and 2 of them told me that they thought the reason more isn't done is because they believe Muslims tend to side with Muslims first no matter what - they said it was a sense of obligation to other Muslims that kept a lot of people from standing stronger against extremists. These people are not, of course, experts on the subject. They are just random Muslims (all men, btw... not sure if women might have a different perspective). So take it for what it's worth. Just thought their opinions were interesting and the seemed to support my supposition that the Muslim world needs to do more to stop and prevent Islamic extremism.
Anywho, I'm not saying Muslims are evil, but we shouldn't sugarcoat ISIS and saying they are a small minority. If Muslim extremism is as small as you claim it is, the KKK would currently occupy a vast majority of the US southeast.
I just thought I would predict the future and get the next argument over with.
Are people similarly outraged over these given the motivation is ultimately currency versus religious differences? Is one beheading more justified than another?
Unfortunately there is no perfect answer. The US pulled back from the Middle East with Obama and it hasn't gotten better. I don't think the US is the cause of problems in the Middle East. The US's actions may just dictate what brutal group is afforded the opportunity to grow and which one is being targeted by the USA. We see what happens when the US tries to stay out of the region. Chaos.
So much of it has our 'Made in U.S.A' stamp on it.
-
Also this "They are a threat that is moving country to country and radicalizing people all over the world. That is why I support action against them. "
They are only able to turn people on their side, because they can use the US as an excuse, a common enemy.
We need to remove ourselves from it all and see where everything falls,
When the British Empire told Gandhi that if they left India, the country would face 'problems and chaos', The Mahatma replied, 'Yes, but they will be OUR problems'.
and when you say this... People killing innocents is more scary than people who kill for money.
That makes sense to you?