Michael Brown Shooting

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

Dosent Holders presence in and of itself play right into the crowd mentality of guilt by accusation.Why this issue for the glorious presences of Holder.
If this cop gets a fair shake I'd be surprised.Its a no win for DA and the Federal Gov should NOT be involved here.There is no pre established racially motivated actions,nor does the cop have a history of race issue.This is a local issue.Elected local officials should be dealing with this.It does not reach a Civil Rights violation.Not a federal issue and would be a slippery slope if they take it.

We must be reading different news. Also rr I'm still waiting for a link talking about the dozens of witnesses backing the cops version of the events.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/08/14/ferguson-police-department-details/14064451/

2. Black people account for most arrests in Ferguson

Last year, black residents accounted for 86% of the vehicle stops made by Ferguson police and nearly 93% of the arrests made from those stops, according to the state attorney general. FBI statistics show that 85% of the people arrested by Ferguson police are black, and that 92% of people arrested specifically for disorderly conduct are black.

But 65% of the population in Ferguson is black. And only 6% of their police force is black. Ummmm...... I think I see a bit of a problem here.

Stats on how many qualified black applicants tried for employment within the dept would be helpful.How many officers do they employ?Is there a hiring practice issue(different discussion).State police and county don't have the same demographically challenged issues do they?

There are 53 officers on the Ferguson police force and only 3 of them are black (or 4 - for some reason that number is unclear), and every single other cop is white. There is not a single other ethnicity represented in the force. So we're talking local police force.... however, almost all if Missouri is white - it's like Ferguson is where all the black people are - so the stats for the state police is similar, but much less meaningful.
Accordoing to the Ferguson police, this massive discrepancy is due to the fact that all the black people in Ferguson have an ongoing distrust of the police force and therefore don't want to be on it. I'd say that statement reenforces the idea that the police force has problems related to racial relations, and that's under the very dubious assumption that the police chief is telling the truth (or is even capable of recognizing if there is a problem). It doesn't explain anything away at all.

Another interesting fact: "Missouri law requires the state’s attorney general to issue an annual Vehicle Stops Report detailing demographic information for people pulled over by officers in each city. In 2013, the attorney general’s office reported that black drivers in Ferguson were about twice as likely to be arrested after police stops than whites. Blacks made up 93 percent of 2013 arrests after car stops." (politifact.com)

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

callen said:

blackredyellow said:

callen said:

Cliffy6745 said:

rr165892 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

rr165892 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

Yay, I see the racist is out in force since I last checked in.

Why is this Rascist?I can't speak for others,but I hate criminals of all colors.And in THIS case I think the kid was a thug not an angel and his actions led to his demise.No color needed

Travon was way more innocent then this clown was.

Not you.

Although while you say this specific cop doesn't have a history of race issues, it does sound like the entire police force does, in general.

Maybe you should also give the investigators a call since you know so much about how it went down.

These areas are powder kegs of emotion.IMO its more about economics and the frustration of being trapped within this enviorment.Race just plays as an easy way to vent this built up angst as a scapegoat for the real issues .

How the hell do you know all this?

Agree with most of what RR wrote. Think it's pretty universally accepted.

A lot of it is, until you get to this part:
"Are freedoms and rights being suppressed ? no.Are random people being singled out based on color? No"

Truth is, we don't know that the answers are "no". If you can't walk down the street without getting followed and questioned, or you get beaten by an over zealous cop, I would imagine that you would feel like your rights are being suppressed. And the arrest stats seem to show that black people are being singled out.

I'm not sure of the legal definition of discrimination, maybe these citizens aren't being denied jobs or education or housing based on their skin color, but if you feel like you are being harrassed and not given a fair shake, because you are a certain color, that has to be some sort of discrimination, right?

Sort of like sexual harassment.., it's basically harassment if the victim feels harassed. It's obvious that these people feel harassed based on their skin color.

Yeah had issues with those lines as well. But in end if all were part of the bounty would be better.

Blackredyellow,
Lets not forget he was hassled because he was walking down the middle of the fucking road,being a belligerent cocky asshole to the cop while holding a handful of stolen goods which he just strong armed robbed from a hard working fellow member of his community.So random targeting based on color holds zero weight here.Stick with facts

Exactly stick with the facts. None of what you wrote here are facts. They maybe true but we don't know that yet.

Kid on film robbing store=fact
Walking in road witnessed by everyone=fact
Mouthing off to cop witnessed by many=fact
Had cigars on him=fact
Only thing that is conjecture is he wasn't singled out.

Are these the same dozens of witnesses you referenced hearing about on CNN? I've heard other witnesses say different, but I'm not claiming that what they have said is fact.

As far as the robbery goes, we still don't know the facts surrounding that. Only what the police have stated, which as has been shown before, they are not above reproach. I have not yet heard audio to that video, but maybe there is no audio.

My point is I am not going to believe what the cops have said yet. Until they provide some proof.

callen said:

PJ_Soul said:

rr165892 said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

Dosent Holders presence in and of itself play right into the crowd mentality of guilt by accusation.Why this issue for the glorious presences of Holder.
If this cop gets a fair shake I'd be surprised.Its a no win for DA and the Federal Gov should NOT be involved here.There is no pre established racially motivated actions,nor does the cop have a history of race issue.This is a local issue.Elected local officials should be dealing with this.It does not reach a Civil Rights violation.Not a federal issue and would be a slippery slope if they take it.

We must be reading different news. Also rr I'm still waiting for a link talking about the dozens of witnesses backing the cops version of the events.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/08/14/ferguson-police-department-details/14064451/

2. Black people account for most arrests in Ferguson

Last year, black residents accounted for 86% of the vehicle stops made by Ferguson police and nearly 93% of the arrests made from those stops, according to the state attorney general. FBI statistics show that 85% of the people arrested by Ferguson police are black, and that 92% of people arrested specifically for disorderly conduct are black.

But 65% of the population in Ferguson is black. And only 6% of their police force is black. Ummmm...... I think I see a bit of a problem here.

Stats on how many qualified black applicants tried for employment within the dept would be helpful.How many officers do they employ?Is there a hiring practice issue(different discussion).State police and county don't have the same demographically challenged issues do they?

There are 53 officers on the Ferguson police force and only 3 of them are black (or 4 - for some reason that number is unclear), and every single other cop is white. There is not a single other ethnicity represented in the force. So we're talking local police force.... however, almost all if Missouri is white - it's like Ferguson is where all the black people are - so the stats for the state police is similar, but much less meaningful.
Accordoing to the Ferguson police, this massive discrepancy is due to the fact that all the black people in Ferguson have an ongoing distrust of the police force and therefore don't want to be on it. I'd say that statement reenforces the idea that the police force has problems related to racial relations, and that's under the very dubious assumption that the police chief is telling the truth (or is even capable of recognizing if there is a problem). It doesn't explain anything away at all.

Another interesting fact: "Missouri law requires the state’s attorney general to issue an annual Vehicle Stops Report detailing demographic information for people pulled over by officers in each city. In 2013, the attorney general’s office reported that black drivers in Ferguson were about twice as likely to be arrested after police stops than whites. Blacks made up 93 percent of 2013 arrests after car stops." (politifact.com)

Arrests after being pulled over May have more to do with failure to pay fines. No insurance. Economic issues as well as potentially race driven. Nothing is black and white. Racism is alive and well but so is economic disparity.

blackredyellow said:

rr165892 said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

Dosent Holders presence in and of itself play right into the crowd mentality of guilt by accusation.Why this issue for the glorious presences of Holder.
If this cop gets a fair shake I'd be surprised.Its a no win for DA and the Federal Gov should NOT be involved here.There is no pre established racially motivated actions,nor does the cop have a history of race issue.This is a local issue.Elected local officials should be dealing with this.It does not reach a Civil Rights violation.Not a federal issue and would be a slippery slope if they take it.

We must be reading different news. Also rr I'm still waiting for a link talking about the dozens of witnesses backing the cops version of the events.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/08/14/ferguson-police-department-details/14064451/

2. Black people account for most arrests in Ferguson

Last year, black residents accounted for 86% of the vehicle stops made by Ferguson police and nearly 93% of the arrests made from those stops, according to the state attorney general. FBI statistics show that 85% of the people arrested by Ferguson police are black, and that 92% of people arrested specifically for disorderly conduct are black.

But 65% of the population in Ferguson is black. And only 6% of their police force is black. Ummmm...... I think I see a bit of a problem here.

Stats on how many qualified black applicants tried for employment within the dept would be helpful.How many officers do they employ?Is there a hiring practice issue(different discussion).State police and county don't have the same demographically challenged issues do they?

It's kind of a never ending circle though... If you are an 18 year old black kid who grew up in a town where you felt like the cops were assholes and everyone told you that the cops were assholes, would you want to be a cop?

The black community as a whole share some blame though... in this whole thing, the older (35+) black residents seem the most sympathetic in this whole thing... they are cleaning up the streets in the morning, they are the business owners, they are offering to care for children who's schools are still closed, they want their families to have a better future, etc., but I saw last night that in the last local election, only 6% of the black population voted (17% of white). If things are that corrupt and that racist in the town, maybe they should have spent some of their energy in recent years mobilizing to change that by running for local office, or supporting minority candidates. With only 17% of white people voting, the black community could easily sweep a local election if they pushed voter turnout.

Cliffy6745 said:

blackredyellow said:

rr165892 said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

Dosent Holders presence in and of itself play right into the crowd mentality of guilt by accusation.Why this issue for the glorious presences of Holder.
If this cop gets a fair shake I'd be surprised.Its a no win for DA and the Federal Gov should NOT be involved here.There is no pre established racially motivated actions,nor does the cop have a history of race issue.This is a local issue.Elected local officials should be dealing with this.It does not reach a Civil Rights violation.Not a federal issue and would be a slippery slope if they take it.

We must be reading different news. Also rr I'm still waiting for a link talking about the dozens of witnesses backing the cops version of the events.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/08/14/ferguson-police-department-details/14064451/

2. Black people account for most arrests in Ferguson

Last year, black residents accounted for 86% of the vehicle stops made by Ferguson police and nearly 93% of the arrests made from those stops, according to the state attorney general. FBI statistics show that 85% of the people arrested by Ferguson police are black, and that 92% of people arrested specifically for disorderly conduct are black.

But 65% of the population in Ferguson is black. And only 6% of their police force is black. Ummmm...... I think I see a bit of a problem here.

Stats on how many qualified black applicants tried for employment within the dept would be helpful.How many officers do they employ?Is there a hiring practice issue(different discussion).State police and county don't have the same demographically challenged issues do they?

It's kind of a never ending circle though... If you are an 18 year old black kid who grew up in a town where you felt like the cops were assholes and everyone told you that the cops were assholes, would you want to be a cop?

The black community as a whole share some blame though... in this whole thing, the older (35+) black residents seem the most sympathetic in this whole thing... they are cleaning up the streets in the morning, they are the business owners, they are offering to care for children who's schools are still closed, they want their families to have a better future, etc., but I saw last night that in the last local election, only 6% of the black population voted (17% of white). If things are that corrupt and that racist in the town, maybe they should have spent some of their energy in recent years mobilizing to change that by running for local office, or supporting minority candidates. With only 17% of white people voting, the black community could easily sweep a local election if they pushed voter turnout.

And yet many are trashing them for using this as an opportunity to increase voter registration

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

callen said:

blackredyellow said:

callen said:

Cliffy6745 said:

rr165892 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

rr165892 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

Yay, I see the racist is out in force since I last checked in.

Why is this Rascist?I can't speak for others,but I hate criminals of all colors.And in THIS case I think the kid was a thug not an angel and his actions led to his demise.No color needed

Travon was way more innocent then this clown was.

Not you.

Although while you say this specific cop doesn't have a history of race issues, it does sound like the entire police force does, in general.

Maybe you should also give the investigators a call since you know so much about how it went down.

These areas are powder kegs of emotion.IMO its more about economics and the frustration of being trapped within this enviorment.Race just plays as an easy way to vent this built up angst as a scapegoat for the real issues .

How the hell do you know all this?

Agree with most of what RR wrote. Think it's pretty universally accepted.

A lot of it is, until you get to this part:
"Are freedoms and rights being suppressed ? no.Are random people being singled out based on color? No"

Truth is, we don't know that the answers are "no". If you can't walk down the street without getting followed and questioned, or you get beaten by an over zealous cop, I would imagine that you would feel like your rights are being suppressed. And the arrest stats seem to show that black people are being singled out.

I'm not sure of the legal definition of discrimination, maybe these citizens aren't being denied jobs or education or housing based on their skin color, but if you feel like you are being harrassed and not given a fair shake, because you are a certain color, that has to be some sort of discrimination, right?

Sort of like sexual harassment.., it's basically harassment if the victim feels harassed. It's obvious that these people feel harassed based on their skin color.

Yeah had issues with those lines as well. But in end if all were part of the bounty would be better.

Blackredyellow,
Lets not forget he was hassled because he was walking down the middle of the fucking road,being a belligerent cocky asshole to the cop while holding a handful of stolen goods which he just strong armed robbed from a hard working fellow member of his community.So random targeting based on color holds zero weight here.Stick with facts

Exactly stick with the facts. None of what you wrote here are facts. They maybe true but we don't know that yet.

Kid on film robbing store=fact
Walking in road witnessed by everyone=fact
Mouthing off to cop witnessed by many=fact
Had cigars on him=fact
Only thing that is conjecture is he wasn't singled out.

Are these the same dozens of witnesses you referenced hearing about on CNN? I've heard other witnesses say different, but I'm not claiming that what they have said is fact.

As far as the robbery goes, we still don't know the facts surrounding that. Only what the police have stated, which as has been shown before, they are not above reproach. I have not yet heard audio to that video, but maybe there is no audio.

My point is I am not going to believe what the cops have said yet. Until they provide some proof.

Herein lies the problem: you have this backwards. The cops do not have the burden of proving Wilson acted appropriately- unless he is charged and to his defence. The current investigation will try to determine whether excessive force was used and in the event this is established... it is up to the people to demonstrate such by proving it.

This forum consistently demands that people enjoy the rights afforded to them by law. Hell, half the damn community insisted we treat the Boston bombers with dignity and fairness- citing they were innocent until proven guilty. Yet... here... a cop kills a 'gentle giant' in a close quarter confrontation and some of the same people are demanding the cop's head on a platter before due process.

And, without video evidence... it might come down to word vs. word. If this is the case, who are you inclined to believe?

I have no problem with what you are saying here. I have a problem with people claiming things as fact when they have not been proven as such yet.

I think the cop should have his due process. I may think the process is probably rigged in his favour given that the police generally investigate each other in these matters, friends investigating friends, but that is an issue for another thread.

I can only assume that they will take into account all the eye witnesses at the scene and see if they match the forensic evidence, this includes the officer in question. I do not take a cops statement with any more validity than a witnesses statement, especially when the cop is involved in said incident.

I agree that an outside agency should be the ones to investigate this incident.

I agree that the statement by the involved officer is subject to question.

I disagree with the broad based assertion that a police officer's statement is on par with that of any average joe on the street. While there certainly have been examples of deceit in police testimony (as there have been in any profession), I give them more credit and respect than that.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

dignin said:

rr165892 said:

callen said:

blackredyellow said:

callen said:

Cliffy6745 said:

rr165892 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

rr165892 said:

Cliffy6745 said:

Yay, I see the racist is out in force since I last checked in.

Why is this Rascist?I can't speak for others,but I hate criminals of all colors.And in THIS case I think the kid was a thug not an angel and his actions led to his demise.No color needed

Travon was way more innocent then this clown was.

Not you.

Although while you say this specific cop doesn't have a history of race issues, it does sound like the entire police force does, in general.

Maybe you should also give the investigators a call since you know so much about how it went down.

These areas are powder kegs of emotion.IMO its more about economics and the frustration of being trapped within this enviorment.Race just plays as an easy way to vent this built up angst as a scapegoat for the real issues .

How the hell do you know all this?

Agree with most of what RR wrote. Think it's pretty universally accepted.

A lot of it is, until you get to this part:
"Are freedoms and rights being suppressed ? no.Are random people being singled out based on color? No"

Truth is, we don't know that the answers are "no". If you can't walk down the street without getting followed and questioned, or you get beaten by an over zealous cop, I would imagine that you would feel like your rights are being suppressed. And the arrest stats seem to show that black people are being singled out.

I'm not sure of the legal definition of discrimination, maybe these citizens aren't being denied jobs or education or housing based on their skin color, but if you feel like you are being harrassed and not given a fair shake, because you are a certain color, that has to be some sort of discrimination, right?

Sort of like sexual harassment.., it's basically harassment if the victim feels harassed. It's obvious that these people feel harassed based on their skin color.

Yeah had issues with those lines as well. But in end if all were part of the bounty would be better.

Blackredyellow,
Lets not forget he was hassled because he was walking down the middle of the fucking road,being a belligerent cocky asshole to the cop while holding a handful of stolen goods which he just strong armed robbed from a hard working fellow member of his community.So random targeting based on color holds zero weight here.Stick with facts

Exactly stick with the facts. None of what you wrote here are facts. They maybe true but we don't know that yet.

Kid on film robbing store=fact
Walking in road witnessed by everyone=fact
Mouthing off to cop witnessed by many=fact
Had cigars on him=fact
Only thing that is conjecture is he wasn't singled out.

Are these the same dozens of witnesses you referenced hearing about on CNN? I've heard other witnesses say different, but I'm not claiming that what they have said is fact.

As far as the robbery goes, we still don't know the facts surrounding that. Only what the police have stated, which as has been shown before, they are not above reproach. I have not yet heard audio to that video, but maybe there is no audio.

My point is I am not going to believe what the cops have said yet. Until they provide some proof.

Herein lies the problem: you have this backwards. The cops do not have the burden of proving Wilson acted appropriately- unless he is charged and to his defence. The current investigation will try to determine whether excessive force was used and in the event this is established... it is up to the people to demonstrate such by proving it.

This forum consistently demands that people enjoy the rights afforded to them by law. Hell, half the damn community insisted we treat the Boston bombers with dignity and fairness- citing they were innocent until proven guilty. Yet... here... a cop kills a 'gentle giant' in a close quarter confrontation and some of the same people are demanding the cop's head on a platter before due process.

And, without video evidence... it might come down to word vs. word. If this is the case, who are you inclined to believe?

I have no problem with what you are saying here. I have a problem with people claiming things as fact when they have not been proven as such yet.

I think the cop should have his due process. I may think the process is probably rigged in his favour given that the police generally investigate each other in these matters, friends investigating friends, but that is an issue for another thread.

I can only assume that they will take into account all the eye witnesses at the scene and see if they match the forensic evidence, this includes the officer in question. I do not take a cops statement with any more validity than a witnesses statement, especially when the cop is involved in said incident.

I agree that an outside agency should be the ones to investigate this incident.

I agree that the statement by the involved officer is subject to question.

I disagree with the broad based assertion that a police officer's statement is on par with that of any average joe on the street. While there certainly have been examples of deceit in police testimony (as there have been in any profession), I give them more credit and respect than that.</blockquote

so anybody with a badge is more crediblle than you!? Youre just a joe off the street, not a copper, so they are more credible? Hardly!

rgambs said:

cops need to be video recorded as they go about their jobs, and that goes for everyone's protection, the cop included. This solves almost every problem with police brutality and the he said she said that follows. Again, they can afford armored vehicles and military weapons but not surveillance??
I think that any officer who kills an unarmed citizen should be removed from "street duty"...not based on the assumption that they have done "something wrong" but based on the psychological damage that follows..2 psych evals from industry buddies doesnt provide much confidence.
Case in point: Canton, OH..an officer caught on cruiser cam pulls gun on non-aggressive concealed carrier and says (paraphrase) "i should fucking shoot you in the head". Man sues department, cop keeps his job. The reason?? The cop suffered traumatic experiences on the job that led to his behavior. Somehow, he is psychologically cleared to brandish a firearm during the exact same time as he successfully defends himself using pyschological trauma. Make sense? Of course not, but thats what happens with any industry trusted to self-regulate, it is a completely moronic idea at its core.

dignin said:

rgambs said:

cops need to be video recorded as they go about their jobs, and that goes for everyone's protection, the cop included. This solves almost every problem with police brutality and the he said she said that follows. Again, they can afford armored vehicles and military weapons but not surveillance??
I think that any officer who kills an unarmed citizen should be removed from "street duty"...not based on the assumption that they have done "something wrong" but based on the psychological damage that follows..2 psych evals from industry buddies doesnt provide much confidence.
Case in point: Canton, OH..an officer caught on cruiser cam pulls gun on non-aggressive concealed carrier and says (paraphrase) "i should fucking shoot you in the head". Man sues department, cop keeps his job. The reason?? The cop suffered traumatic experiences on the job that led to his behavior. Somehow, he is psychologically cleared to brandish a firearm during the exact same time as he successfully defends himself using pyschological trauma. Make sense? Of course not, but thats what happens with any industry trusted to self-regulate, it is a completely moronic idea at its core.

I posted this in the police abuse thread and it is relevant here also.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/12/nypd-body-worn-camera-pilot-chokehold-death

NYPD urged to step up body-worn camera pilot after chokehold death
Amid accusations of excessive force and increasing civilian video of police activity, New York officers may wear cameras while on duty

The most cited study of the effects of body-worn cameras on policing is Cambridge University’s examination of the police department in Rialto, California. After cameras were introduced in February 2012, officers’ use of force dropped 59%, and complaints against officers plummeted by 88%.