Idf soldiers told to kill civilians •*graphic

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  • Idris
    Idris Posts: 2,317
    Some of the worst crimes committed have been done by people 'just following orders'.

    If rafie supports the actions of his government, then he should serve, proudly, but if he is truly against these actions of his government, he should probably then object and not go.

    I hate this occupation/massacre...but good luck being involved in it, hope you keep well! Stay safe!
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478

    Wishing somebody well before he goes to war and hoping he doesn't get killed is a far cry from supporting somebody going off to murder. The ignorant part is comparing the two and saying Americans are supporting the murderous actions of Isreal by wishing an Israeli soldier well before he goes off to mandatory service. Wheather or not you share the same beliefs as whoever the hell it is that is going to serve in the Israeli army Monday, one shouldn't be chastised for hoping he doesn't die. Hopefully he will have the common sense not to murder innocent civilians in this war. If he does, shame on him and i would.hope he is convicted of war crimes. That still doesn't mean I can't hope he comes back alive.

    What would happen to an American that was supposed to report for duty knowing he/she was going to Iraq or Afghanistan and refused? They would be court marshalled and be labelled a traitor.

    I understand what you are saying, but I don't see what he/she said was ignorant. Semantics or difference of opinion perhaps.

    At some point if you want real peace the soldier has to take a stand and not go. Face the consequences. But from what I read from Raffies earlier post she/he believes this is a just conflict. So no need to take a stand.

    With all the evidence that has come out I could not in good conscience participate in this conflict. I know it's easy for me to say sitting from the comfort of my home in peace, but that is just how I feel.

    I do not wish anyone harm, but I can understand why someone would not wish them luck either.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    What are the consequences? I don't know.

    And I don't think I've seen anyone say "good luck", just sending wishes for safety on what I can't imagine his path tomorrow will take.

    To Idris, having my grandparents placed in a camp and my grandmother dying there, I get your comment about "just following orders". To be honest, I have conflicting feelings about that and probably always will.
  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,594
    I made two posts in regards to Rafie. In neither did I wish him luck. I urged him to be well and to get back safe...and only after stressing that I wanted nothing more than for the shooting to stop.

    I've made this point before and I will repeat it here: Many of the pro-Israeli voices have retreated from this discussion, and in their absence a few of the pro-Palestinian voices have turned their anger on others, many of whom do largely agree with their cause.
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • rafie
    rafie Posts: 2,160
    I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was.
    I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).

    Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.
    Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!

    2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
    2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
    2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    Cheers, man. Thank you for sharing of yourself, and agreed with your last sentence - speedy, among other things.
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    rafie said:

    I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated.

    I apologize for the insinuation. From your posts on the other thread I jumped to that conclusion which I was wrong to.

    With any luck you will not be sent into this conflict and it will end soon. Like I said before I wish you nor anyone else harm.

  • JimmyV
    JimmyV Boston's MetroWest Posts: 19,594
    dignin said:

    rafie said:

    I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated.

    I apologize for the insinuation. From your posts on the other thread I jumped to that conclusion which I was wrong to.

    With any luck you will not be sent into this conflict and it will end soon. Like I said before I wish you nor anyone else harm.

    Takes stones to apologize sometimes. Well done.

    =D>
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    Rafie
    You know anything about Hannibal directive?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    rafie said:

    I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue.

    Israel has had 47 years to end it's occupation through dialogue, but has failed to engage in good-faith negotiations to reach a peaceful settlement.

    Now it's time for the international community to impose strict sanctions and boycotts on Israel to force it to comply with it's obligations under international law.

  • Idris
    Idris Posts: 2,317
    hedonist said:


    To Idris, having my grandparents placed in a camp and my grandmother dying there, I get your comment about "just following orders". To be honest, I have conflicting feelings about that and probably always will.

    Fair enough, I can't comment regarding such matters of your heart, I hope one day those conflicted feelings you have are settled.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/03/israel-spied-kerry-peace-effort-report

    Israel spied on John Kerry during failed peace talks – report

    Der Spiegel says Israelis eavesdropped on phone calls
    State Department offers no comment


    theguardian.com, Sunday 3 August 2014

    john kerry The US secretary of state, John Kerry, speaks on his phone at Ramstein air base in Germany on Friday. Photograph: Lucas Jackson/AP

    Israel spied on the US secretary of state, John Kerry, during peace talks with Palestinians and Arab states last year, the magazine Der Spiegel has reported.

    The German weekly said on Sunday that Israeli intelligence and at least one other secret service intercepted Kerry’s phone calls during a doomed, nine-month effort to broker a peace deal.

    If confirmed, the report will further sour the diplomat’s relationship with Binyamin Netanyahu’s government and raise fresh questions about the vulnerability of phone communications to eavesdropping.

    There was no immediate reaction from Jerusalem or Washington. The State Department did not respond to a request for comment.

    The report was published on another bloody day in Gaza, where a projectile hit a street outside a school where people were sheltering, killing at least seven and wounding dozens, many of whom were buying sweets and biscuits from stalls.

    The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, called the attack a “moral outrage and a criminal act” and said the Israel Defence Forces had been repeatedly informed of the location of civilian shelters.

    Citing “several intelligence sources”, Der Spiegel said Israeli spies and an unidentified intelligence agency listened in on Kerry’s talks with high-ranking officials from Israel, the Palestinian territories and Arab states. Some calls were allegedly made on normal phones and were not encrypted.

    “The government in Jerusalem then used the information obtained in international negotiations aiming to reach a diplomatic solution in the Middle East,” it said.

    ....
  • Idris
    Idris Posts: 2,317
    rafie said:

    I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was.
    I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).

    Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.

    I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.

    and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.

    You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.

    "I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."

    Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
  • Idris said:

    rafie said:

    I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was.
    I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).

    Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.

    I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.

    and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.

    You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.

    "I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."

    Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
    The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.

    All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    edited August 2014
    rafie said:

    I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform).

    Incredible. The ones calling for an end to the illegal occupation and the persecution of Palestinians by Israelis are more violent than those killing (or contributing to the murder) to preserve it.
    Post edited by fuck on
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069

    Idris said:

    I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.

    and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.

    You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.

    "I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."

    Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.

    The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.

    All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
    I am a Palestinian, and my family and I have suffered dearly for it. I would kindly ask that you not trivialize the struggle of Palestinians by equating it with that of the Zionist oppressors.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    edited August 2014

    Wishing somebody well before he goes to war and hoping he doesn't get killed is a far cry from supporting somebody going off to murder. The ignorant part is comparing the two and saying Americans are supporting the murderous actions of Isreal by wishing an Israeli soldier well before he goes off to mandatory service. Wheather or not you share the same beliefs as whoever the hell it is that is going to serve in the Israeli army Monday, one shouldn't be chastised for hoping he doesn't die. Hopefully he will have the common sense not to murder innocent civilians in this war. If he does, shame on him and i would.hope he is convicted of war crimes. That still doesn't mean I can't hope he comes back alive.

    Again, you have not answered my actual concerns. This just sounds like an emotional rant on your part. My point is: when do we assign responsibility not just for those declaring the war, but those soldiers participating in it and carrying out these massacres? A soldier who reports to duty, does he or she not carry part of the responsibility for contributing to this mass murder?

    If we rewinded this to the era of Apartheid South Africa and you all were meeting a policemen going out to arrest and kill Black South Africans, would you wish him well before his journey or try to hold his feet to the fire and ask that he not participate in this madness? Would you demand that he shoulder some of the responsibility?

    What would happen to an American that was supposed to report for duty knowing he/she was going to Iraq or Afghanistan and refused? They would be court marshalled and be labelled a traitor.

    So we're using the "I was just taking orders" line? And here I thought comparing Zionists to Nazis wasn't acceptable...
  • Idris
    Idris Posts: 2,317

    Idris said:

    rafie said:

    I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was.
    I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).

    Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.

    I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.

    and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.

    You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.

    "I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."

    Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
    The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.

    All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
    Good, I was not trying to 'veil' it.

    Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.

    If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.

    My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
  • Idris said:

    Idris said:

    rafie said:

    I had no intention of posting here again, but I see that a debate has arisen concerning my well being. First of all, thanks to those of you who wish for me to come back alive (sounds ridiculous that people actually attacked you for saying this...). I never said that I believe that this was a just war as someone hear insinuated. I believe that this is a war that has been a long time coming (sadly, since the last one...). I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this. I live in this country (by choice, I also have American citizenship, so I could leave any time) and care about the people living here (this in no way insinuates that I do not care about what the palestinians are going through in Gaza). Thankfully I do not live in the range of the rockets, but most of my friends and family do. Every day they have sirens ringing telling them to get to shelter from rocket attacks. We had a friend over last week for a couple of nights so she and her 2 young kids could get away from the sirens (her husband has been enlisted since the start of the conflict). The first thing that we did with them was go to a park not far from our house. Once arriving to the park, her 4 year old son said that we need to hurry before an alarm goes off and he asked where the bomb shelter was.
    I am going to fill my duty to help stop things like this from happening. Like I have said before, I do not believe that this conflict will end trough violence, but rather through dialogue. I may be the one going to the army in the morning, but trust me when I say that the anti-Israel faction posting here are way more violent than I have ever been in my entire life (including my time in uniform). Things will never change as long as you are only looking for someone to blame. Instead of always looking for a way to slander someone else, how about you look for a way to understand their way of thinking (even, and especially, if it is opposite to what you think).

    Here's hoping that this conflict reaches a speedy ending.

    I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.

    and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.

    You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.

    "I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."

    Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.
    The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.

    All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
    Good, I was not trying to 'veil' it.

    Also,he should not 'just not report', he should call the papers/media his leaders and say why he refuses to report.

    If someone is dismayed with whats going on, then dont go and join in it.

    My comment lacks class, sure, and the man who is ready to go kill, for something he does not even believe in, thats what? Class?
    Did you speak so strongly against the US soldiers when they shipped off to Afghanistan and then Iraq after 15 Saudi Arabian terrorists (and 4 others) flew into the World Trade Center? Did you demand they treat their 'service' like a buffet table and pick and choose which events they'll participate in based on what they believe... in other words 'serve' on their terms and not their country's?

    I would surmise that you yourself have never made such a valiant and bold stand in your life like the one you are demanding from rafie.

    Don't get me wrong- I wish he wasn't adding to the forces that are mounting against the Palestinian people. I just don't like everybody talking so self-righteous from the comfort of their sofas.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • fuck said:

    Idris said:

    I hope for a 'just' ending, even if it takes another 40 years. I hope Israel stops taking more land, and returns to the '67 borders.

    and I will say this again, if you do not even believe that this is a 'just' war, then don't fight in it.

    You worry about these 'rockets', just take away the 'cause' of them. I mean, you hold your hand over an open fire then complain about the burns.

    "I would never in a million years consider not filling my civil duty as a citizen of Israel and going to reserve duty when called, especially not during a time like this."

    Of course, Israel is so close to wiping out gaza, how could anyone think about not fulfilling ones civil duty in a time like this.

    The last statement you made lacks class. It's a not so cleverly veiled insult where you are essentially calling him out as an opportunistic nationalist trying to seize the moment- ignoring the numerous times he has expressed dismay at the current situation.

    All these folks here thinking the guy should just not report speak from the safety and comfort of their sofas... far removed from the situation. It's always so much easier to say than to do.
    I am a Palestinian, and my family and I have suffered dearly for it. I would kindly ask that you not trivialize the struggle of Palestinians by equating it with that of the Zionist oppressors.
    This is nonsense. You'll have to explain how you perceived this from my writing.

    I never trivialized anything. And I never equated his call to duty with the struggles the Palestinian people are and have been enduring.
    "My brain's a good brain!"