If you think Palestinians don't care about their own people, you couldn't be more wrong. Just cuz someone posts Hamas memebers killing Palestinians for TREASON, doesn't mean they don't have compassion for their own people wether dead or alive. It's the opposite, to kill your own people for treason tells me you care more about your people. Remember, these people were killed for treason, working with the idf. Who knows how many civilians died because of these treasonist acts. To be butt hurt over this boggles my mind. Spies are killed all over the world all the time. To make this a special case is bull shit. Sorry, but you can't pick and choose what forms of treason are exceptable for murder. Treason is treason and it happened in America and all around the world. Let's be real here.
I never said Palestinians don't care about their own people, man. I was and am critical of Hamas.
+1
BB, I have not ignored your question to me from yesterday. Went back to work today and have not had much free time. When I have a few minutes on a computer (and not a handheld device) I will respond.
No prob rafie, I know you've got a life buddy. All good
I had to remove an extremely graphic image a few pages back. You can link to extremely graphic images of war horrors, but not hot-link to them, so people who don't want to click on the link can choose to do that. That way, people who want to post images can do so and other people can choose to click on the link or not.
B for effort F for effect F for humor Would've been better if the bucket was filled with baby limbs, baby arms baby hands baby fingers babytoes, baby skull!
B for effort F for effect F for humor Would've been better if the bucket was filled with baby limbs, baby arms baby hands baby fingers babytoes, baby skull!
The body parts would be against Muslim tradition. Body goes back to the earth asap. Can't play around with the human body like a joke, know what I mean? I know what you meant by your post, it is fucked up what's happening and although body parts would be more shocking, I think this way was a good way to lighten up yet bring more awareness to this conflict.
Is there no humanity in Israel left? Now they're calling Palestinian prisoners into offices to tell them they killed their family and bombed their home. Wtf, how can people have ZERO hearts or compassion.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
Terrible shit going on.... BB, I am glad you guys are continuing to bring attention to these crimes against humanity.
Thanks! Just doing what we can. Thanks for reading and wanting to know.
Yes, I think it is sad that this kind of devastation of human life has become the "norm". It is important that we don't become desensitized to it. Putting a human face on it hopefully makes it real to people that are so far removed from that region. and maybe they will write their representatives and do what they can to stop this shit.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
I'll admit it rafie, but can you admit Israel is targeting civilians?
Promised you a reply, so here we go:
As someone who served in the IDF (and does a month of reserve duty every year or two) I can honestly say that I have no doubt that Israel and the IDF do not have a policy of targeting civilians. My reservations to this statement are as follows:
1) There is no question that many civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli attacks (the ratio of civilians to fighters being killed is debatable). I think that Israel does a lot to prevent civilian casualties (warning in advance to cell phones, drops flyers from planes, warning bombs on the roof before destroying a building...) but sees the civilians that are killed as reasonable collateral damage (I, personally, believe that there will always be civilian casualties when rockets are being launched from densely populated areas, but the amount of civilians killed in this round of hostilities was way too high and could (and should) have been much lower). I think that it is a bit ridiculous to think that Israeli leadership actually wants civilian casualties. It is clear to anyone with 2 working brain cells that Israel has nothing to gain from Civilian casualties and that the more civilians that are killed, the more the world will be against Israel. I have said it before, I believe that Hamas leadership uses this to their advantage and encourage (and occasionally force) civilians to stay in areas that they know are targets for attacks. Quite a few of the civilians that have been killed in gaza have also been killed not by Israeli bombings but by Hamas rockets falling short (this has been proven in international media over the past couple of weeks, I do not have the energy/time to back up the statement by providing links). To summarize this point, I have no doubt that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, but can and should do more to prevent civilian casualties (although it will never be 0).
2) There have been stories popping up about how Israeli soldiers intentionally targeting civilians. This is absolutely possible (although I question the credibility of any specific stories such as the one that started this thread), but is not policy. We need to remember that nearly all the Israeli soldiers who participated in the ground assault are kids 18 - 21 years old. Think of yourself and your friends at this age. They are not necessarily equipped with the emotional tools to process the horrors of what they are seeing and needing to do. Obviously some will crack (It happens in every war around the world. There are a few examples in the beheading thread). That is a far cry from it being policy. Moreso, If any Israeli soldier would receive a direct order to intentionally harm civilians for absolutely no reason, it is their legal (not to mention moral) responsibility to refuse the order. This is one of the first things that are thought during basic training (again, I speak from experience as someone who served/serves as an infantry soldier).
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people. This is not what is (was) happening in Gaza. People here have said again and again that Israel is a military super power with the most advanced weapons available. If Israeli policy was really to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible the casualty rate would not be 2100, but closer to 210,000. No doubt that Gaza is going through a humanitarian catastrophe, but it is not a genocide.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
I'll admit it rafie, but can you admit Israel is targeting civilians?
Promised you a reply, so here we go:
As someone who served in the IDF (and does a month of reserve duty every year or two) I can honestly say that I have no doubt that Israel and the IDF do not have a policy of targeting civilians. My reservations to this statement are as follows:
1) There is no question that many civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli attacks (the ratio of civilians to fighters being killed is debatable). I think that Israel does a lot to prevent civilian casualties (warning in advance to cell phones, drops flyers from planes, warning bombs on the roof before destroying a building...) but sees the civilians that are killed as reasonable collateral damage (I, personally, believe that there will always be civilian casualties when rockets are being launched from densely populated areas, but the amount of civilians killed in this round of hostilities was way too high and could (and should) have been much lower). I think that it is a bit ridiculous to think that Israeli leadership actually wants civilian casualties. It is clear to anyone with 2 working brain cells that Israel has nothing to gain from Civilian casualties and that the more civilians that are killed, the more the world will be against Israel. I have said it before, I believe that Hamas leadership uses this to their advantage and encourage (and occasionally force) civilians to stay in areas that they know are targets for attacks. Quite a few of the civilians that have been killed in gaza have also been killed not by Israeli bombings but by Hamas rockets falling short (this has been proven in international media over the past couple of weeks, I do not have the energy/time to back up the statement by providing links). To summarize this point, I have no doubt that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, but can and should do more to prevent civilian casualties (although it will never be 0).
2) There have been stories popping up about how Israeli soldiers intentionally targeting civilians. This is absolutely possible (although I question the credibility of any specific stories such as the one that started this thread), but is not policy. We need to remember that nearly all the Israeli soldiers who participated in the ground assault are kids 18 - 21 years old. Think of yourself and your friends at this age. They are not necessarily equipped with the emotional tools to process the horrors of what they are seeing and needing to do. Obviously some will crack (It happens in every war around the world. There are a few examples in the beheading thread). That is a far cry from it being policy. Moreso, If any Israeli soldier would receive a direct order to intentionally harm civilians for absolutely no reason, it is their legal (not to mention moral) responsibility to refuse the order. This is one of the first things that are thought during basic training (again, I speak from experience as someone who served/serves as an infantry soldier).
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people. This is not what is (was) happening in Gaza. People here have said again and again that Israel is a military super power with the most advanced weapons available. If Israeli policy was really to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible the casualty rate would not be 2100, but closer to 210,000. No doubt that Gaza is going through a humanitarian catastrophe, but it is not a genocide.
Thanks for this, Rafie. I'm pretty sure the stories about Israeli soldiers targeting civilians would never be officially condoned by the Israeli government - and certainly not on paper. I wonder if you could give your two cents about the social opinions of the deaths of civilians in Gaza (i.e. whether they are justifiable in the eyes of Israelis or Israeli soldiers). My only experience with IDF soldiers was on Birthright, where I met genuine, peace-loving soldiers, and with an ex-friend of mine, who left for Israel a bit of a bigot, but came back with such an astonishing loathing of 'Arabs' that it blew me away. When in Malaysia together, he refused to enter a mosque with me, based on absolutely horrifically unfounded and discriminatory statements.
In my opinion, if there is in fact a social acceptance (or push for) the loss of lives of civilians in Gaza, it should be an obligation of the Israeli government to implement programs to combat unfounded hatred, and anything less would be inadequate.
For the record - I am not saying this is a prevalent attitude, rather I'm hoping you can shine some light on what the prevalent attitudes are.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Well, when you got senior Pentagon officials speaking out with what happened in gaza, saying Israel used so much unproportinate force, you mite have a serious problem on your hands. This article has to be read. So much info on it I couldn't even cut it down. This is some damning shit right here:
“Eleven battalions of IDF artillery is equivalent to the artillery we deploy to support two divisions of U.S. infantry,” a senior Pentagon officer with access to the daily briefings said. “That’s a massive amount of firepower, and it’s absolutely deadly.” Another officer, a retired artillery commander who served in Iraq, said the Pentagon’s assessment might well have underestimated the firepower the IDF brought to bear on Shujaiya. “This is the equivalent of the artillery we deploy to support a full corps,” he said. “It’s just a huge number of weapons.”
Artillery pieces used during the operation included a mix of Soltam M71 guns and U.S.-manufactured Paladin M109s (a 155-mm howitzer), each of which can fire three shells per minute. “The only possible reason for doing that is to kill a lot of people in as short a period of time as possible,” said the senior U.S. military officer. “It’s not mowing the lawn,” he added, referring to a popular IDF term for periodic military operations against Hamas in Gaza. “It’s removing the topsoil.”
“Holy bejeezus,” exclaimed retired Lt. Gen. Robert Gard when told the numbers of artillery pieces and rounds fired during the July 21 action. “That rate of fire over that period of time is astonishing. If the figures are even half right, Israel’s response was absolutely disproportionate.” A West Point graduate who is a veteran of two wars and is the chairman of the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation in Washington, D.C., he added that even if Israeli artillery units fired guided munitions, it would have made little difference.
“Listen, we know what it’s like to kill civilians in war,” said the senior U.S. officer. “Hell, we even put it on the front pages. We call it collateral damage. We absolutely try to minimize it, because we know it turns people against you. Killing civilians is a sure prescription for defeat. But that’s not what the IDF did in Shujaiya on July 21. Human shields? C’mon, just own up to it.”
I'll admit it rafie, but can you admit Israel is targeting civilians?
Promised you a reply, so here we go:
As someone who served in the IDF (and does a month of reserve duty every year or two) I can honestly say that I have no doubt that Israel and the IDF do not have a policy of targeting civilians. My reservations to this statement are as follows:
1) There is no question that many civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli attacks (the ratio of civilians to fighters being killed is debatable). I think that Israel does a lot to prevent civilian casualties (warning in advance to cell phones, drops flyers from planes, warning bombs on the roof before destroying a building...) but sees the civilians that are killed as reasonable collateral damage (I, personally, believe that there will always be civilian casualties when rockets are being launched from densely populated areas, but the amount of civilians killed in this round of hostilities was way too high and could (and should) have been much lower). I think that it is a bit ridiculous to think that Israeli leadership actually wants civilian casualties. It is clear to anyone with 2 working brain cells that Israel has nothing to gain from Civilian casualties and that the more civilians that are killed, the more the world will be against Israel. I have said it before, I believe that Hamas leadership uses this to their advantage and encourage (and occasionally force) civilians to stay in areas that they know are targets for attacks. Quite a few of the civilians that have been killed in gaza have also been killed not by Israeli bombings but by Hamas rockets falling short (this has been proven in international media over the past couple of weeks, I do not have the energy/time to back up the statement by providing links). To summarize this point, I have no doubt that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, but can and should do more to prevent civilian casualties (although it will never be 0).
2) There have been stories popping up about how Israeli soldiers intentionally targeting civilians. This is absolutely possible (although I question the credibility of any specific stories such as the one that started this thread), but is not policy. We need to remember that nearly all the Israeli soldiers who participated in the ground assault are kids 18 - 21 years old. Think of yourself and your friends at this age. They are not necessarily equipped with the emotional tools to process the horrors of what they are seeing and needing to do. Obviously some will crack (It happens in every war around the world. There are a few examples in the beheading thread). That is a far cry from it being policy. Moreso, If any Israeli soldier would receive a direct order to intentionally harm civilians for absolutely no reason, it is their legal (not to mention moral) responsibility to refuse the order. This is one of the first things that are thought during basic training (again, I speak from experience as someone who served/serves as an infantry soldier).
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people. This is not what is (was) happening in Gaza. People here have said again and again that Israel is a military super power with the most advanced weapons available. If Israeli policy was really to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible the casualty rate would not be 2100, but closer to 210,000. No doubt that Gaza is going through a humanitarian catastrophe, but it is not a genocide.
Thanks for this, Rafie. I'm pretty sure the stories about Israeli soldiers targeting civilians would never be officially condoned by the Israeli government - and certainly not on paper. I wonder if you could give your two cents about the social opinions of the deaths of civilians in Gaza (i.e. whether they are justifiable in the eyes of Israelis or Israeli soldiers). My only experience with IDF soldiers was on Birthright, where I met genuine, peace-loving soldiers, and with an ex-friend of mine, who left for Israel a bit of a bigot, but came back with such an astonishing loathing of 'Arabs' that it blew me away. When in Malaysia together, he refused to enter a mosque with me, based on absolutely horrifically unfounded and discriminatory statements.
In my opinion, if there is in fact a social acceptance (or push for) the loss of lives of civilians in Gaza, it should be an obligation of the Israeli government to implement programs to combat unfounded hatred, and anything less would be inadequate.
For the record - I am not saying this is a prevalent attitude, rather I'm hoping you can shine some light on what the prevalent attitudes are.
Ben, I am sad to say that from my personal experience, the average Israeli does not give much thought to the Palestinian death toll. It is something that is noted in the media reports, but not something that is dwelled upon.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
I'll admit it rafie, but can you admit Israel is targeting civilians?
Promised you a reply, so here we go:
As someone who served in the IDF (and does a month of reserve duty every year or two) I can honestly say that I have no doubt that Israel and the IDF do not have a policy of targeting civilians. My reservations to this statement are as follows:
1) There is no question that many civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli attacks (the ratio of civilians to fighters being killed is debatable). I think that Israel does a lot to prevent civilian casualties (warning in advance to cell phones, drops flyers from planes, warning bombs on the roof before destroying a building...) but sees the civilians that are killed as reasonable collateral damage (I, personally, believe that there will always be civilian casualties when rockets are being launched from densely populated areas, but the amount of civilians killed in this round of hostilities was way too high and could (and should) have been much lower). I think that it is a bit ridiculous to think that Israeli leadership actually wants civilian casualties. It is clear to anyone with 2 working brain cells that Israel has nothing to gain from Civilian casualties and that the more civilians that are killed, the more the world will be against Israel. I have said it before, I believe that Hamas leadership uses this to their advantage and encourage (and occasionally force) civilians to stay in areas that they know are targets for attacks. Quite a few of the civilians that have been killed in gaza have also been killed not by Israeli bombings but by Hamas rockets falling short (this has been proven in international media over the past couple of weeks, I do not have the energy/time to back up the statement by providing links). To summarize this point, I have no doubt that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, but can and should do more to prevent civilian casualties (although it will never be 0).
2) There have been stories popping up about how Israeli soldiers intentionally targeting civilians. This is absolutely possible (although I question the credibility of any specific stories such as the one that started this thread), but is not policy. We need to remember that nearly all the Israeli soldiers who participated in the ground assault are kids 18 - 21 years old. Think of yourself and your friends at this age. They are not necessarily equipped with the emotional tools to process the horrors of what they are seeing and needing to do. Obviously some will crack (It happens in every war around the world. There are a few examples in the beheading thread). That is a far cry from it being policy. Moreso, If any Israeli soldier would receive a direct order to intentionally harm civilians for absolutely no reason, it is their legal (not to mention moral) responsibility to refuse the order. This is one of the first things that are thought during basic training (again, I speak from experience as someone who served/serves as an infantry soldier).
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people. This is not what is (was) happening in Gaza. People here have said again and again that Israel is a military super power with the most advanced weapons available. If Israeli policy was really to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible the casualty rate would not be 2100, but closer to 210,000. No doubt that Gaza is going through a humanitarian catastrophe, but it is not a genocide.
Thanks for this, Rafie. I'm pretty sure the stories about Israeli soldiers targeting civilians would never be officially condoned by the Israeli government - and certainly not on paper. I wonder if you could give your two cents about the social opinions of the deaths of civilians in Gaza (i.e. whether they are justifiable in the eyes of Israelis or Israeli soldiers). My only experience with IDF soldiers was on Birthright, where I met genuine, peace-loving soldiers, and with an ex-friend of mine, who left for Israel a bit of a bigot, but came back with such an astonishing loathing of 'Arabs' that it blew me away. When in Malaysia together, he refused to enter a mosque with me, based on absolutely horrifically unfounded and discriminatory statements.
In my opinion, if there is in fact a social acceptance (or push for) the loss of lives of civilians in Gaza, it should be an obligation of the Israeli government to implement programs to combat unfounded hatred, and anything less would be inadequate.
For the record - I am not saying this is a prevalent attitude, rather I'm hoping you can shine some light on what the prevalent attitudes are.
Ben, I am sad to say that from my personal experience, the average Israeli does not give much thought to the Palestinian death toll. It is something that is noted in the media reports, but not something that is dwelled upon.
I was afraid you might say that, and it's unfortunate to hear confirmation, but I appreciate your honesty on the topic. I wish I could think of ways to change this: if a social movement brought Israeli citizens to the point where they were seriously reflecting on the deaths in the Palestinian regions, I think collectively, they would spend more time trying to look back in the history and understand how things got to where they are today - and awareness is rarely a bad thing.
I can't speak for the population at large, but I know for me personally, it wasn't until I saw the growing death toll that I began reading on the situation and the history. I suspect it's like this for many who would call themselves pacifists: we stick with our blissful ignorance, hoping for peace but not asking questions which would help us understand volatile situations or actually promote change to help attain that peace, until it's just so present in our lives that we have no ability to ignore it. Unfortunately, there have been injustices and power imbalances within the region (which, don't get me wrong, are certainly surrounded by other complex issues - I've only recently learned about the treatment of Mizrahi Jews within the region, for example) that lead me to believe that these kinds of initiatives would not come from the Israeli government. That suggests to me that the onus shifts to the people themselves, but I can only guess how heavy-handedly one would be criticized for promoting empathy for Palestinians: even as a Jew in the diaspora I am criticized for it.
It's really a challenge.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
wants civilian casualties. It is clear to anyone with 2 working brain cells that Israel has nothing to gain from Civilian casualties and that the more civilians that are killed, the more the world will be against Israel. I have said it before, I believe that Hamas leadership uses this to their advantage and encourage (and occasionally force) civilians to stay in areas that they know are targets for attacks. Quite a few of the civilians that have been killed in gaza have also been killed not by Israeli bombings but by Hamas rockets falling short (this has been proven in international media over the past couple of weeks, I do not have the energy/time to back up the statement by providing links). To summarize this point, I have no doubt that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, but can and should do more to prevent civilian casualties (although it will never be 0).
2) There have been stories popping up about how Israeli soldiers intentionally targeting civilians. This is absolutely possible (although I question the credibility of any specific stories such as the one that started this thread), but is not policy. We need to remember that nearly all the Israeli soldiers who participated in the ground assault are kids 18 - 21 years old. Think of yourself and your friends at this age. They are not necessarily equipped with the emotional tools to process the horrors of what they are seeing and needing to do. Obviously some will crack (It happens in every war around the world. There are a few examples in the beheading thread). That is a far cry from it being policy. Moreso, If any Israeli soldier would receive a direct order to intentionally harm civilians for absolutely no reason, it is their legal (not to mention moral) responsibility to refuse the order. This is one of the first things that are thought during basic training (again, I speak from experience as someone who served/serves as an infantry soldier).
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people. This is not what is (was) happening in Gaza. People here have said again and again that Israel is a military super power with the most advanced weapons available. If Israeli policy was really to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible the casualty rate would not be 2100, but closer to 210,000. No doubt that Gaza is going through a humanitarian catastrophe, but it is not a genocide.
Interesting opinions you have there. Unfortunately the documentary record suggests otherwise.
Israeli troops say they were given shoot-to-kill order
Conal Urquhart in Tel Aviv The Guardian, Monday 5 September 2005 Israeli military prosecutors have opened criminal investigations following allegations by soldiers that they carried out illegal shoot-to-kill orders against unarmed Palestinians.
The 17 separate investigations were prompted by the testimony of dozens of troops collected by Breaking the Silence, a pressure group of former Israeli soldiers committed to exposing human rights abuses by the military in suppressing the Palestinian intifada. The investigations cover a range of allegations, including misuse of weapons and other misuses of power.
Some of the soldiers, who also spoke to the Guardian, say they acted on standing orders in some parts of the Palestinian territories to open fire on people regardless of whether they were armed or not, or posed any physical threat.
The soldiers say that in some situations they were ordered to shoot anyone who appeared on a roof or a balcony, anyone who appeared to be kneeling to the ground or anyone who appeared on the street at a designated time. Among those killed by soldiers acting on the orders were young children.
While the background to the soldiers' experience is the armed conflict that has been going on in the West Bank and Gaza Strip since October 2000, many of the shootings occurred in periods of calm when there was no immediate risk to the soldiers involved.
Yehuda Shaul, the co-founder of Breaking the Silence, said it aimed to show that individual soldiers were not to blame for killings of innocent Palestinians. "It is the situation which is to blame and that is created by military and political leaders, not the soldiers on the ground," he said.
The testimonies shed light on how around 1,700 Palestinian civilians have been killed during the second intifada.
Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity
Whistleblowers' testimony shows desire for revenge on Palestinians
Conal Urquhart in Tel Aviv The Guardian, Monday 5 September 2005
From a distance of 70 metres and through the sight of his machine gun, Assaf could tell that the Palestinian man was aged between 20 and 30, unarmed and trying to get away from an Israeli tank. But the details didn't matter much, because Assaf's orders were to "fire at anything that moved".
Assaf, a soldier in the Israeli army, pressed the trigger, firing scores of bullets as the body fell to the ground. "He ran and I started shooting for a few seconds. He fell. I was a machine. I fire. I leave and that's that. We never spoke about it afterwards."
It was the summer of 2002, and Assaf and his armoured unit had been ordered to enter the Gaza town of Dir al Balah following the firing of mortars into nearby Jewish settlements. His orders were, he told the Guardian, "'Every person you see on the street, kill him'. And we would just do it."
It was not the first time that Assaf had killed an innocent person in Gaza while following orders, but after his discharge he began to think about the things he did.
"The reason why I am telling you this is that I want the army to think about what they are asking us to do, shooting unarmed people. I don't think it's legal."
Assaf is not alone. In recent months dozens of soldiers, including the son of an an Israeli general, all recently discharged, have come forward to share their stories of how they were ordered in briefings to shoot to kill unarmed people without fear of reprimand...
I'll admit it rafie, but can you admit Israel is targeting civilians?
Promised you a reply, so here we go:
As someone who served in the IDF (and does a month of reserve duty every year or two) I can honestly say that I have no doubt that Israel and the IDF do not have a policy of targeting civilians. My reservations to this statement are as follows:
1) There is no question that many civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli attacks (the ratio of civilians to fighters being killed is debatable). I think that Israel does a lot to prevent civilian casualties (warning in advance to cell phones, drops flyers from planes, warning bombs on the roof before destroying a building...) but sees the civilians that are killed as reasonable collateral damage (I, personally, believe that there will always be civilian casualties when rockets are being launched from densely populated areas, but the amount of civilians killed in this round of hostilities was way too high and could (and should) have been much lower). I think that it is a bit ridiculous to think that Israeli leadership actually wants civilian casualties. It is clear to anyone with 2 working brain cells that Israel has nothing to gain from Civilian casualties and that the more civilians that are killed, the more the world will be against Israel. I have said it before, I believe that Hamas leadership uses this to their advantage and encourage (and occasionally force) civilians to stay in areas that they know are targets for attacks. Quite a few of the civilians that have been killed in gaza have also been killed not by Israeli bombings but by Hamas rockets falling short (this has been proven in international media over the past couple of weeks, I do not have the energy/time to back up the statement by providing links). To summarize this point, I have no doubt that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, but can and should do more to prevent civilian casualties (although it will never be 0).
2) There have been stories popping up about how Israeli soldiers intentionally targeting civilians. This is absolutely possible (although I question the credibility of any specific stories such as the one that started this thread), but is not policy. We need to remember that nearly all the Israeli soldiers who participated in the ground assault are kids 18 - 21 years old. Think of yourself and your friends at this age. They are not necessarily equipped with the emotional tools to process the horrors of what they are seeing and needing to do. Obviously some will crack (It happens in every war around the world. There are a few examples in the beheading thread). That is a far cry from it being policy. Moreso, If any Israeli soldier would receive a direct order to intentionally harm civilians for absolutely no reason, it is their legal (not to mention moral) responsibility to refuse the order. This is one of the first things that are thought during basic training (again, I speak from experience as someone who served/serves as an infantry soldier).
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people. This is not what is (was) happening in Gaza. People here have said again and again that Israel is a military super power with the most advanced weapons available. If Israeli policy was really to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible the casualty rate would not be 2100, but closer to 210,000. No doubt that Gaza is going through a humanitarian catastrophe, but it is not a genocide.
Thanks for this, Rafie. I'm pretty sure the stories about Israeli soldiers targeting civilians would never be officially condoned by the Israeli government - and certainly not on paper. I wonder if you could give your two cents about the social opinions of the deaths of civilians in Gaza (i.e. whether they are justifiable in the eyes of Israelis or Israeli soldiers). My only experience with IDF soldiers was on Birthright, where I met genuine, peace-loving soldiers, and with an ex-friend of mine, who left for Israel a bit of a bigot, but came back with such an astonishing loathing of 'Arabs' that it blew me away. When in Malaysia together, he refused to enter a mosque with me, based on absolutely horrifically unfounded and discriminatory statements.
In my opinion, if there is in fact a social acceptance (or push for) the loss of lives of civilians in Gaza, it should be an obligation of the Israeli government to implement programs to combat unfounded hatred, and anything less would be inadequate.
For the record - I am not saying this is a prevalent attitude, rather I'm hoping you can shine some light on what the prevalent attitudes are.
Ben, I am sad to say that from my personal experience, the average Israeli does not give much thought to the Palestinian death toll. It is something that is noted in the media reports, but not something that is dwelled upon.
I was afraid you might say that, and it's unfortunate to hear confirmation, but I appreciate your honesty on the topic. I wish I could think of ways to change this: if a social movement brought Israeli citizens to the point where they were seriously reflecting on the deaths in the Palestinian regions, I think collectively, they would spend more time trying to look back in the history and understand how things got to where they are today - and awareness is rarely a bad thing.
I can't speak for the population at large, but I know for me personally, it wasn't until I saw the growing death toll that I began reading on the situation and the history. I suspect it's like this for many who would call themselves pacifists: we stick with our blissful ignorance, hoping for peace but not asking questions which would help us understand volatile situations or actually promote change to help attain that peace, until it's just so present in our lives that we have no ability to ignore it. Unfortunately, there have been injustices and power imbalances within the region (which, don't get me wrong, are certainly surrounded by other complex issues - I've only recently learned about the treatment of Mizrahi Jews within the region, for example) that lead me to believe that these kinds of initiatives would not come from the Israeli government. That suggests to me that the onus shifts to the people themselves, but I can only guess how heavy-handedly one would be criticized for promoting empathy for Palestinians: even as a Jew in the diaspora I am criticized for it.
It's really a challenge.
Ben, there is no chance something like that can happen on a national scale during times of hostilities. I am sad to say it, but i think that you are 100% right in your assessment that people here are heavily critisized when speaking out about palestiniam suffering. That is the way things have been the last coupke of months. Hopefully, now that this round of hosrilities is over (fingers crossed), a dialouge can begin that will lead to a real and lasting peace.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Also, every major human rights organization has produced ample evidence of the IDF deliberately targeting civilians.
And bombing hospitals, schools, U.N Safe Houses, and children's playgrounds is also deliberately targeting civilians, as is shooting medical personnel and ambulances, and women and children waving white flags.
Israel: Investigate ‘White Flag' Shootings of Gaza Civilians Internal Israeli Military Investigations Inadequate August 13, 2009
During Israel's recent Gaza offensive, Israeli soldiers unlawfully shot and killed 11 Palestinian civilians, including five women and four children, who were in groups waving white flags to convey their civilian status, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. The Israeli military should conduct thorough, credible investigations into these deaths to tackle the prevailing culture of impunity, Human Rights Watch said.
The 63-page report, "White Flag Deaths: Killings of Palestinian Civilians during Operation Cast Lead," http://www.hrw.org/node/85014 is based on field investigations of seven incident sites in Gaza, including ballistic evidence found at the scene, medical records of victims, and lengthy interviews with multiple witnesses - at least three people separately for each incident...
And during Israel's latest massacre of Palestinian civilians, the IDF shot unarmed civilians fleeing the bombing.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/israeli-army-summarily-executed-fleeing-civilians-southern-gaza '...Human Rights Watch was able to chronicle the war crimes committed by the Israeli army. Such crimes include firing on civilians carrying white flags in an attempt to flee the village; shooting at medical workers attending to a mortally wounded Red Crescent paramedic volunteer; denying medical care to Palestinians in Israeli custody; and shooting at civilians after they were ordered to exit their homes.
This is not the first time such crimes have been committed in Khuzaa. As both Human Rights Watch and the Goldstone report documented, during Israel’s 2008-2009 offensive on Gaza Israeli soldiers shot at several Palestinians in Khuzaa carrying white flags, killing at least one and injuring more.
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people.
Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:
1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and
2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."
Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.
...........................
Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:
Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.
Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.
Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.
Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.
Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.
I'll admit it rafie, but can you admit Israel is targeting civilians?
Promised you a reply, so here we go:
As someone who served in the IDF (and does a month of reserve duty every year or two) I can honestly say that I have no doubt that Israel and the IDF do not have a policy of targeting civilians. My reservations to this statement are as follows:
1) There is no question that many civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli attacks (the ratio of civilians to fighters being killed is debatable). I think that Israel does a lot to prevent civilian casualties (warning in advance to cell phones, drops flyers from planes, warning bombs on the roof before destroying a building...) but sees the civilians that are killed as reasonable collateral damage (I, personally, believe that there will always be civilian casualties when rockets are being launched from densely populated areas, but the amount of civilians killed in this round of hostilities was way too high and could (and should) have been much lower). I think that it is a bit ridiculous to think that Israeli leadership actually wants civilian casualties. It is clear to anyone with 2 working brain cells that Israel has nothing to gain from Civilian casualties and that the more civilians that are killed, the more the world will be against Israel. I have said it before, I believe that Hamas leadership uses this to their advantage and encourage (and occasionally force) civilians to stay in areas that they know are targets for attacks. Quite a few of the civilians that have been killed in gaza have also been killed not by Israeli bombings but by Hamas rockets falling short (this has been proven in international media over the past couple of weeks, I do not have the energy/time to back up the statement by providing links). To summarize this point, I have no doubt that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, but can and should do more to prevent civilian casualties (although it will never be 0).
2) There have been stories popping up about how Israeli soldiers intentionally targeting civilians. This is absolutely possible (although I question the credibility of any specific stories such as the one that started this thread), but is not policy. We need to remember that nearly all the Israeli soldiers who participated in the ground assault are kids 18 - 21 years old. Think of yourself and your friends at this age. They are not necessarily equipped with the emotional tools to process the horrors of what they are seeing and needing to do. Obviously some will crack (It happens in every war around the world. There are a few examples in the beheading thread). That is a far cry from it being policy. Moreso, If any Israeli soldier would receive a direct order to intentionally harm civilians for absolutely no reason, it is their legal (not to mention moral) responsibility to refuse the order. This is one of the first things that are thought during basic training (again, I speak from experience as someone who served/serves as an infantry soldier).
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people. This is not what is (was) happening in Gaza. People here have said again and again that Israel is a military super power with the most advanced weapons available. If Israeli policy was really to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible the casualty rate would not be 2100, but closer to 210,000. No doubt that Gaza is going through a humanitarian catastrophe, but it is not a genocide.
Thanks for this, Rafie. I'm pretty sure the stories about Israeli soldiers targeting civilians would never be officially condoned by the Israeli government - and certainly not on paper. I wonder if you could give your two cents about the social opinions of the deaths of civilians in Gaza (i.e. whether they are justifiable in the eyes of Israelis or Israeli soldiers). My only experience with IDF soldiers was on Birthright, where I met genuine, peace-loving soldiers, and with an ex-friend of mine, who left for Israel a bit of a bigot, but came back with such an astonishing loathing of 'Arabs' that it blew me away. When in Malaysia together, he refused to enter a mosque with me, based on absolutely horrifically unfounded and discriminatory statements.
In my opinion, if there is in fact a social acceptance (or push for) the loss of lives of civilians in Gaza, it should be an obligation of the Israeli government to implement programs to combat unfounded hatred, and anything less would be inadequate.
For the record - I am not saying this is a prevalent attitude, rather I'm hoping you can shine some light on what the prevalent attitudes are.
Ben, I am sad to say that from my personal experience, the average Israeli does not give much thought to the Palestinian death toll. It is something that is noted in the media reports, but not something that is dwelled upon.
I was afraid you might say that, and it's unfortunate to hear confirmation, but I appreciate your honesty on the topic. I wish I could think of ways to change this: if a social movement brought Israeli citizens to the point where they were seriously reflecting on the deaths in the Palestinian regions, I think collectively, they would spend more time trying to look back in the history and understand how things got to where they are today - and awareness is rarely a bad thing.
I can't speak for the population at large, but I know for me personally, it wasn't until I saw the growing death toll that I began reading on the situation and the history. I suspect it's like this for many who would call themselves pacifists: we stick with our blissful ignorance, hoping for peace but not asking questions which would help us understand volatile situations or actually promote change to help attain that peace, until it's just so present in our lives that we have no ability to ignore it. Unfortunately, there have been injustices and power imbalances within the region (which, don't get me wrong, are certainly surrounded by other complex issues - I've only recently learned about the treatment of Mizrahi Jews within the region, for example) that lead me to believe that these kinds of initiatives would not come from the Israeli government. That suggests to me that the onus shifts to the people themselves, but I can only guess how heavy-handedly one would be criticized for promoting empathy for Palestinians: even as a Jew in the diaspora I am criticized for it.
It's really a challenge.
Ben, there is no chance something like that can happen on a national scale during times of hostilities. I am sad to say it, but i think that you are 100% right in your assessment that people here are heavily critisized when speaking out about palestiniam suffering. That is the way things have been the last coupke of months. Hopefully, now that this round of hosrilities is over (fingers crossed), a dialouge can begin that will lead to a real and lasting peace.
I agree entirely that this will not happen during hostilities, and I know that technically hostilities are over now. To me, the question is, if there's a perception that the 'other side' is perpetually hostile (which I get the feeling is the perception in Gaza about Israelis, and in Israel about Palestinians), how can things evolve to the point where that incredibly crucial dialogue is started?
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I agree entirely that this will not happen during hostilities, and I know that technically hostilities are over now. To me, the question is, if there's a perception that the 'other side' is perpetually hostile (which I get the feeling is the perception in Gaza about Israelis, and in Israel about Palestinians), how can things evolve to the point where that incredibly crucial dialogue is started?
Great question, as usual, Ben. The consensus in Israel, myself included, about Hamas is that they are not and will never be truly interested in stopping hostilities with Israel and accepting a two state solution. Their charter pretty much states that their goal is a Palestinian state on 100% of the land. I think that what needs to be done is have the global superpowers empower more moderate leader, such as Mahmud Abbas. We need to remember that Israel, and the Palestinian authority to an extent, are democracies. Eventually, we will have leaders on both sides truly interested in peace ruling at the same time. Here's hoping that happens sooner rather than later. For now, it is important that the people, and not the leaders, start a dialogue focused on putting our differences behind us. For that to happen, we need to stop playing "the blame game".
Post edited by rafie on
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Comments
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/new-ice-bucket-challenge-gazans-launch-rubble-bucket-challenge-n188191?utm_content=buffer5be3d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Would've been better if the bucket was filled with baby limbs, baby arms baby hands baby fingers babytoes, baby skull!
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/israel-tells-palestinian-prisoners-we-bombed-your-homes-and-killed-your-families
http://www.aa.com.tr/en/rss/379071--1000-gaza-children-disabled-by-israeli-onslaught-ngo
BB, I am glad you guys are continuing to bring attention to these crimes against humanity.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
I think it is sad that this kind of devastation of human life has become the "norm".
It is important that we don't become desensitized to it.
Putting a human face on it hopefully makes it real to people that are so far removed from that region.
and maybe they will write their representatives and do what they can to stop this shit.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
As someone who served in the IDF (and does a month of reserve duty every year or two) I can honestly say that I have no doubt that Israel and the IDF do not have a policy of targeting civilians. My reservations to this statement are as follows:
1) There is no question that many civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israeli attacks (the ratio of civilians to fighters being killed is debatable). I think that Israel does a lot to prevent civilian casualties (warning in advance to cell phones, drops flyers from planes, warning bombs on the roof before destroying a building...) but sees the civilians that are killed as reasonable collateral damage (I, personally, believe that there will always be civilian casualties when rockets are being launched from densely populated areas, but the amount of civilians killed in this round of hostilities was way too high and could (and should) have been much lower). I think that it is a bit ridiculous to think that Israeli leadership actually wants civilian casualties. It is clear to anyone with 2 working brain cells that Israel has nothing to gain from Civilian casualties and that the more civilians that are killed, the more the world will be against Israel. I have said it before, I believe that Hamas leadership uses this to their advantage and encourage (and occasionally force) civilians to stay in areas that they know are targets for attacks. Quite a few of the civilians that have been killed in gaza have also been killed not by Israeli bombings but by Hamas rockets falling short (this has been proven in international media over the past couple of weeks, I do not have the energy/time to back up the statement by providing links).
To summarize this point, I have no doubt that Israel is not intentionally targeting civilians, but can and should do more to prevent civilian casualties (although it will never be 0).
2) There have been stories popping up about how Israeli soldiers intentionally targeting civilians. This is absolutely possible (although I question the credibility of any specific stories such as the one that started this thread), but is not policy. We need to remember that nearly all the Israeli soldiers who participated in the ground assault are kids 18 - 21 years old. Think of yourself and your friends at this age. They are not necessarily equipped with the emotional tools to process the horrors of what they are seeing and needing to do. Obviously some will crack (It happens in every war around the world. There are a few examples in the beheading thread). That is a far cry from it being policy. Moreso, If any Israeli soldier would receive a direct order to intentionally harm civilians for absolutely no reason, it is their legal (not to mention moral) responsibility to refuse the order. This is one of the first things that are thought during basic training (again, I speak from experience as someone who served/serves as an infantry soldier).
On a related note, I also find it absolutely ridiculous to call what has happened in Gaza over the past few weeks a genocide. A genocide is the systematic elimination of a people. This is not what is (was) happening in Gaza. People here have said again and again that Israel is a military super power with the most advanced weapons available. If Israeli policy was really to eliminate as many Palestinians as possible the casualty rate would not be 2100, but closer to 210,000.
No doubt that Gaza is going through a humanitarian catastrophe, but it is not a genocide.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
In my opinion, if there is in fact a social acceptance (or push for) the loss of lives of civilians in Gaza, it should be an obligation of the Israeli government to implement programs to combat unfounded hatred, and anything less would be inadequate.
For the record - I am not saying this is a prevalent attitude, rather I'm hoping you can shine some light on what the prevalent attitudes are.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/26/israel-bombing-stunsusofficers.html
“Eleven battalions of IDF artillery is equivalent to the artillery we deploy to support two divisions of U.S. infantry,” a senior Pentagon officer with access to the daily briefings said. “That’s a massive amount of firepower, and it’s absolutely deadly.” Another officer, a retired artillery commander who served in Iraq, said the Pentagon’s assessment might well have underestimated the firepower the IDF brought to bear on Shujaiya. “This is the equivalent of the artillery we deploy to support a full corps,” he said. “It’s just a huge number of weapons.”
Artillery pieces used during the operation included a mix of Soltam M71 guns and U.S.-manufactured Paladin M109s (a 155-mm howitzer), each of which can fire three shells per minute. “The only possible reason for doing that is to kill a lot of people in as short a period of time as possible,” said the senior U.S. military officer. “It’s not mowing the lawn,” he added, referring to a popular IDF term for periodic military operations against Hamas in Gaza. “It’s removing the topsoil.”
“Holy bejeezus,” exclaimed retired Lt. Gen. Robert Gard when told the numbers of artillery pieces and rounds fired during the July 21 action. “That rate of fire over that period of time is astonishing. If the figures are even half right, Israel’s response was absolutely disproportionate.” A West Point graduate who is a veteran of two wars and is the chairman of the Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation in Washington, D.C., he added that even if Israeli artillery units fired guided munitions, it would have made little difference.
“Listen, we know what it’s like to kill civilians in war,” said the senior U.S. officer. “Hell, we even put it on the front pages. We call it collateral damage. We absolutely try to minimize it, because we know it turns people against you. Killing civilians is a sure prescription for defeat. But that’s not what the IDF did in Shujaiya on July 21. Human shields? C’mon, just own up to it.”
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
I can't speak for the population at large, but I know for me personally, it wasn't until I saw the growing death toll that I began reading on the situation and the history. I suspect it's like this for many who would call themselves pacifists: we stick with our blissful ignorance, hoping for peace but not asking questions which would help us understand volatile situations or actually promote change to help attain that peace, until it's just so present in our lives that we have no ability to ignore it. Unfortunately, there have been injustices and power imbalances within the region (which, don't get me wrong, are certainly surrounded by other complex issues - I've only recently learned about the treatment of Mizrahi Jews within the region, for example) that lead me to believe that these kinds of initiatives would not come from the Israeli government. That suggests to me that the onus shifts to the people themselves, but I can only guess how heavy-handedly one would be criticized for promoting empathy for Palestinians: even as a Jew in the diaspora I am criticized for it.
It's really a challenge.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
http://electronicintifada.net/content/these-are-war-crimes-says-father-gaza-family-wiped-out-israeli-airstrike/13811
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/06/israel1
Israeli troops say they were given shoot-to-kill order
Conal Urquhart in Tel Aviv
The Guardian, Monday 5 September 2005
Israeli military prosecutors have opened criminal investigations following allegations by soldiers that they carried out illegal shoot-to-kill orders against unarmed Palestinians.
The 17 separate investigations were prompted by the testimony of dozens of troops collected by Breaking the Silence, a pressure group of former Israeli soldiers committed to exposing human rights abuses by the military in suppressing the Palestinian intifada. The investigations cover a range of allegations, including misuse of weapons and other misuses of power.
Some of the soldiers, who also spoke to the Guardian, say they acted on standing orders in some parts of the Palestinian territories to open fire on people regardless of whether they were armed or not, or posed any physical threat.
The soldiers say that in some situations they were ordered to shoot anyone who appeared on a roof or a balcony, anyone who appeared to be kneeling to the ground or anyone who appeared on the street at a designated time. Among those killed by soldiers acting on the orders were young children.
While the background to the soldiers' experience is the armed conflict that has been going on in the West Bank and Gaza Strip since October 2000, many of the shootings occurred in periods of calm when there was no immediate risk to the soldiers involved.
Yehuda Shaul, the co-founder of Breaking the Silence, said it aimed to show that individual soldiers were not to blame for killings of innocent Palestinians. "It is the situation which is to blame and that is created by military and political leaders, not the soldiers on the ground," he said.
The testimonies shed light on how around 1,700 Palestinian civilians have been killed during the second intifada.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/06/israel
Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity
Whistleblowers' testimony shows desire for revenge on Palestinians
Conal Urquhart in Tel Aviv
The Guardian, Monday 5 September 2005
From a distance of 70 metres and through the sight of his machine gun, Assaf could tell that the Palestinian man was aged between 20 and 30, unarmed and trying to get away from an Israeli tank. But the details didn't matter much, because Assaf's orders were to "fire at anything that moved".
Assaf, a soldier in the Israeli army, pressed the trigger, firing scores of bullets as the body fell to the ground. "He ran and I started shooting for a few seconds. He fell. I was a machine. I fire. I leave and that's that. We never spoke about it afterwards."
It was the summer of 2002, and Assaf and his armoured unit had been ordered to enter the Gaza town of Dir al Balah following the firing of mortars into nearby Jewish settlements. His orders were, he told the Guardian, "'Every person you see on the street, kill him'. And we would just do it."
It was not the first time that Assaf had killed an innocent person in Gaza while following orders, but after his discharge he began to think about the things he did.
"The reason why I am telling you this is that I want the army to think about what they are asking us to do, shooting unarmed people. I don't think it's legal."
Assaf is not alone. In recent months dozens of soldiers, including the son of an an Israeli general, all recently discharged, have come forward to share their stories of how they were ordered in briefings to shoot to kill unarmed people without fear of reprimand...
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
And bombing hospitals, schools, U.N Safe Houses, and children's playgrounds is also deliberately targeting civilians, as is shooting medical personnel and ambulances, and women and children waving white flags.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/08/13/israel-investigate-white-flag-shootings-gaza-civilians
Israel: Investigate ‘White Flag' Shootings of Gaza Civilians
Internal Israeli Military Investigations Inadequate
August 13, 2009
During Israel's recent Gaza offensive, Israeli soldiers unlawfully shot and killed 11 Palestinian civilians, including five women and four children, who were in groups waving white flags to convey their civilian status, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. The Israeli military should conduct thorough, credible investigations into these deaths to tackle the prevailing culture of impunity, Human Rights Watch said.
The 63-page report, "White Flag Deaths: Killings of Palestinian Civilians during Operation Cast Lead," http://www.hrw.org/node/85014 is based on field investigations of seven incident sites in Gaza, including ballistic evidence found at the scene, medical records of victims, and lengthy interviews with multiple witnesses - at least three people separately for each incident...
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/israeli-army-summarily-executed-fleeing-civilians-southern-gaza
'...Human Rights Watch was able to chronicle the war crimes committed by the Israeli army. Such crimes include firing on civilians carrying white flags in an attempt to flee the village; shooting at medical workers attending to a mortally wounded Red Crescent paramedic volunteer; denying medical care to Palestinians in Israeli custody; and shooting at civilians after they were ordered to exit their homes.
This is not the first time such crimes have been committed in Khuzaa. As both Human Rights Watch and the Goldstone report documented, during Israel’s 2008-2009 offensive on Gaza Israeli soldiers shot at several Palestinians in Khuzaa carrying white flags, killing at least one and injuring more.
http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm
The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.
Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:
1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and
2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."
Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.
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Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:
Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.
Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.
Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.
Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.
Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I think that what needs to be done is have the global superpowers empower more moderate leader, such as Mahmud Abbas.
We need to remember that Israel, and the Palestinian authority to an extent, are democracies. Eventually, we will have leaders on both sides truly interested in peace ruling at the same time. Here's hoping that happens sooner rather than later. For now, it is important that the people, and not the leaders, start a dialogue focused on putting our differences behind us. For that to happen, we need to stop playing "the blame game".
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin