Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

jumbojet · July 2014

badbrains said:

Byrnzie said:
The US doesn't give $4 Billion tax dollars to the Ukraine in military aid every year. Also, last time I checked, neither the Russians or Ukrainians were busy slaughtering hundreds of civilians.
Exactly. I dnt understand how people can't differentiate between civil wars and occupations. People keep bringing up other conflicts and try to compare the 2. Only thing in common is people being killed.

These are all very weak points (Btw, US gov't might be providing some "aid" to Ukraine in some form, unofficially) but that's not my point. But it isn't my intention change the direction completely to another conflict.

I just want to point out that "My conflict is the single most important topic in the world, right now" is not the right attitude to take under such a topic.

I also dont think calling out Ed for backpedalling is right. Everyone chooses their own way of reacting to world problems.

Just be aware that you are borrowing this topic for Gaza conflict (which I am perfectly OK with) and please don't call out to people who just want to give their messages for peace.

I am not trying to go into a debate about this, I'm not even good with my way around words. Hell, I even have problems with words even in my own language. So this is just my 2 cents.

badbrains · July 2014

jumbojet said:

badbrains said:

Byrnzie said:
The US doesn't give $4 Billion tax dollars to the Ukraine in military aid every year. Also, last time I checked, neither the Russians or Ukrainians were busy slaughtering hundreds of civilians.
Exactly. I dnt understand how people can't differentiate between civil wars and occupations. People keep bringing up other conflicts and try to compare the 2. Only thing in common is people being killed.
These are all very weak points (Btw, US gov't might be providing some "aid" to Ukraine in some form, unofficially) but that's not my point. But it isn't my intention change the direction completely to another conflict.

I just want to point out that "My conflict is the single most important topic in the world, right now" is not the right attitude to take under such a topic.

I also dont think calling out Ed for backpedalling is right. Everyone chooses their own way of reacting to world problems.

Just be aware that you are borrowing this topic for Gaza conflict (which I am perfectly OK with) and please don't call out to people who just want to give their messages for peace.

I am not trying to go into a debate about this, I'm not even good with my way around words. Hell, I even have problems with words even in my own language. So this is just my 2 cents.

You know what's weak, making "this" issue about the posters instead of the conflict itself. Dude, in Russia and Crimea there's 2 fucken armies. In gaza, there's a fucken war machine on one side and civilians with NO ARMY on the other. Wtf is wrong with people? Again, how old does one have to be to be able to tell the difference between an actual fucken war and a massacre? With all do respect jumbo, you have to expect a response about "your" weak points.

Maybe we can put this Ed speach to rest by starting a thread asking Ed to either come straight out and deny he meant Israel or come clean and say it wasn't. (Don't worry, I'm not) It's fucken funny, almost all the isaelis thought the speach was about them, yet people who aren't living in Israel or even Jewish think it's about all wars. That's pretty telling.

benjs · July 2014

badbrains said:

jumbojet said:

badbrains said:

Byrnzie said:
The US doesn't give $4 Billion tax dollars to the Ukraine in military aid every year. Also, last time I checked, neither the Russians or Ukrainians were busy slaughtering hundreds of civilians.
Exactly. I dnt understand how people can't differentiate between civil wars and occupations. People keep bringing up other conflicts and try to compare the 2. Only thing in common is people being killed.
These are all very weak points (Btw, US gov't might be providing some "aid" to Ukraine in some form, unofficially) but that's not my point. But it isn't my intention change the direction completely to another conflict.

I just want to point out that "My conflict is the single most important topic in the world, right now" is not the right attitude to take under such a topic.

I also dont think calling out Ed for backpedalling is right. Everyone chooses their own way of reacting to world problems.

Just be aware that you are borrowing this topic for Gaza conflict (which I am perfectly OK with) and please don't call out to people who just want to give their messages for peace.

I am not trying to go into a debate about this, I'm not even good with my way around words. Hell, I even have problems with words even in my own language. So this is just my 2 cents.

You know what's weak, making "this" issue about the posters instead of the conflict itself. Dude, in Russia and Crimea there's 2 fucken armies. In gaza, there's a fucken war machine on one side and civilians with NO ARMY on the other. Wtf is wrong with people? Again, how old does one have to be to be able to tell the difference between an actual fucken war and a massacre? With all do respect jumbo, you have to expect a response about "your" weak points.

Maybe we can put this Ed speach to rest by starting a thread asking Ed to either come straight out and deny he meant Israel or come clean and say it wasn't. (Don't worry, I'm not) It's fucken funny, almost all the isaelis thought the speach was about them, yet people who aren't living in Israel or even Jewish think it's about all wars. That's pretty telling.

I think Eddie very clearly was alluding to Israeli presence within Gaza. That being said, and jumbojet can clarify me if I'm wrong, but I think he's just saying that in a thread entitled "Imagine That - I'm Still Anti-War", it's not fair to silence those with statements of universal peace to make. Call it flowery, call it useless, but I agree that I don't think it's right to publicly call a person out on it (definitely not here at all, where, quite literally, they are entitled to). Sincerely, a guy you know is right there beside you on this conflict, badbrains.

Edit: I just realized I've been calling this a conflict assuming it's a fair way to refer to the situation - badbrains and byrnzie, is that labelling considered skewed in either direction or is that alright?

badbrains · July 2014

benjs said:

badbrains said:

jumbojet said:

badbrains said:

Byrnzie said:
The US doesn't give $4 Billion tax dollars to the Ukraine in military aid every year. Also, last time I checked, neither the Russians or Ukrainians were busy slaughtering hundreds of civilians.
Exactly. I dnt understand how people can't differentiate between civil wars and occupations. People keep bringing up other conflicts and try to compare the 2. Only thing in common is people being killed.
These are all very weak points (Btw, US gov't might be providing some "aid" to Ukraine in some form, unofficially) but that's not my point. But it isn't my intention change the direction completely to another conflict.

I just want to point out that "My conflict is the single most important topic in the world, right now" is not the right attitude to take under such a topic.

I also dont think calling out Ed for backpedalling is right. Everyone chooses their own way of reacting to world problems.

Just be aware that you are borrowing this topic for Gaza conflict (which I am perfectly OK with) and please don't call out to people who just want to give their messages for peace.

I am not trying to go into a debate about this, I'm not even good with my way around words. Hell, I even have problems with words even in my own language. So this is just my 2 cents.

You know what's weak, making "this" issue about the posters instead of the conflict itself. Dude, in Russia and Crimea there's 2 fucken armies. In gaza, there's a fucken war machine on one side and civilians with NO ARMY on the other. Wtf is wrong with people? Again, how old does one have to be to be able to tell the difference between an actual fucken war and a massacre? With all do respect jumbo, you have to expect a response about "your" weak points.

Maybe we can put this Ed speach to rest by starting a thread asking Ed to either come straight out and deny he meant Israel or come clean and say it wasn't. (Don't worry, I'm not) It's fucken funny, almost all the isaelis thought the speach was about them, yet people who aren't living in Israel or even Jewish think it's about all wars. That's pretty telling.
I think Eddie very clearly was alluding to Israeli presence within Gaza. That being said, and jumbojet can clarify me if I'm wrong, but I think he's just saying that in a thread entitled "Imagine That - I'm Still Anti-War", it's not fair to silence those with statements of universal peace to make. Call it flowery, call it useless, but I agree that I don't think it's right to publicly call a person out on it (definitely not here at all, where, quite literally, they are entitled to). Sincerely, a guy you know is right there beside you on this conflict, badbrains.

No doubt Ben! Imagine that, a Muslim standing next to a Jew. In solidarity, it can happen and should happen. And FYI, Ben is actually trying to do something very positive. Hopefully it'll see the light of day.

badbrains · July 2014

Geraldo fucken Rivera? Wtf, did I just see this. Believe me, NOT WHAT you'd expect.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5637081?&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

Byrnzie · July 2014

Nobody was trying to silence the 'flower-power' crowd. In fact, the complete opposite was the case. They all jumped on my 'anger' at the atrocities taking place, and my anger at those trying to excuse and justify it, and tried pretending that those who are actively trying to do someone about the massacre over there - by whatever means they have at their disposal - have emotional issues, and should basically shut up and puff on a bong.

Byrnzie · July 2014

benjs said:
Edit: I just realized I've been calling this a conflict assuming it's a fair way to refer to the situation - badbrains and byrnzie, is that labelling considered skewed in either direction or is that alright?

'Conflict' is a pretty accurate term. Though a war it definitely is not.

JimmyV · July 2014

The anger at Israel or Russia or US involvement is all very natural and a legitimate part of any discussion concerning current world affairs. That this anger has repeatedly spilled over into attacks on one another on the board is I think what people were hoping to eliminate.

There is no single person who is guilty of this. It has been an ongoing issue for 35 pages here in this thread and countless others before.

jumbojet · July 2014

benjs said:

I think Eddie very clearly was alluding to Israeli presence within Gaza. That being said, and jumbojet can clarify me if I'm wrong, but I think he's just saying that in a thread entitled "Imagine That - I'm Still Anti-War", it's not fair to silence those with statements of universal peace to make. Call it flowery, call it useless, but I agree that I don't think it's right to publicly call a person out on it (definitely not here at all, where, quite literally, they are entitled to).

Exactly, my point. Thank you.
That said, I don't have a problem reading extensive information presented here about Gaza conflict. I don't want to seem to discourage anyone about that.
I just hope that current chaotic state of the world is not the "New Normal" and we are not expected to get used to this. It is OK to get angry on this and show your reaction.

hedonist · July 2014

JimmyV said:
That this anger has repeatedly spilled over into attacks on one another on the board is I think what people were hoping to eliminate.

Yes...that's what I've been addressing. Not the anger itself but turning it personal.

Shit, I'm surprised no one's been called a doodyhead yet.

badbrains · July 2014

hedonist said:

JimmyV said:
That this anger has repeatedly spilled over into attacks on one another on the board is I think what people were hoping to eliminate.

Yes...that's what I've been addressing. Not the anger itself but turning it personal.

Shit, I'm surprised no one's been called a doodyhead yet.

I'm such a SHITHEAD!

)

hedonist · July 2014

badbrains said:

hedonist said:

JimmyV said:
That this anger has repeatedly spilled over into attacks on one another on the board is I think what people were hoping to eliminate.

Yes...that's what I've been addressing. Not the anger itself but turning it personal.

Shit, I'm surprised no one's been called a doodyhead yet.

I'm such a SHITHEAD! )

Nah, you're alright

Byrnzie · July 2014

brianlux · July 2014

What with all the name calling and personal attacks, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. The OP message is such a good one and it's really sad how it has been degraded. It really is possible to be outraged by the events in Gaza and still hope for peace. That doesn't make a person a hypocrite. And it really is possible to strongly disagree with someone without calling them names or declaring what others say is "a crock of shit".

I'm still for advocating peace on this thread and taking the ranting somewhere else. It doesn't mean I'm not outraged by much of what goes on in Gaza. It's just that I don't like to shit in the living room. That's what bathrooms are for. I don't see the point of raging in the sanctuary, that's what the courtroom or boxing ring is for.

fuck · July 2014

brianlux said:
What with all the name calling and personal attacks, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. The OP message is such a good one and it's really sad how it has been degraded. It really is possible to be outraged by the events in Gaza and still hope for peace. That doesn't make a person a hypocrite. And it really is possible to strongly disagree with someone without calling them names or declaring what others say is "a crock of shit".

I'm still for advocating peace on this thread and taking the ranting somewhere else. It doesn't mean I'm not outraged by much of what goes on in Gaza. It's just that I don't like to shit in the living room. That's what bathrooms are for. I don't see the point of raging in the sanctuary, that's what the courtroom or boxing ring is for.

No one is upset with your calls for peace. In fact, it is people like you (though I won't say you specifically because I haven't read closely enough to see if you've done this) who have insisted that one cannot be outraged about Gaza and also call for peace. It is people like you in this thread who have been trying to silence those of us calling attention to Israeli crimes. Every time someone talks about Israeli crimes in this thread, people come in and say "Stop! You're so angry while looking at murdered children! Let's just have peace!" What the fuck kind of contribution is that to an anti-war discussion? How is that even remotely constructive?

In my opinion, calling attention to crimes is what makes an anti-war discussion. I think it is beyond clear that everyone here is interested in peace, especially those outraged by the Israeli war on Gaza. The question is how to move forward. You can stay in Level 1 and come into this thread 4 times a day to make sure everyone wants peace over and over again, or you can come over to Level 2 and engage the actual points about how we can get there, who to hold responsible for crimes, and what we can do to bring about justice. It's really not complicated.

hedonist · July 2014

It is people like you in this thread who have been trying to silence those of us calling attention to Israeli crimes. Every time someone talks about Israeli crimes in this thread, people come in and say "Stop! You're so angry while looking at murdered children! Let's just have peace!" What the fuck kind of contribution is that to an anti-war discussion? How is that even remotely constructive?
"People like you" - and the description is actually pretty way off.

I think this is why there won't be a meeting of the minds here, or at least a long way to go.

NO ONE is trying to silence anyone. Speak out, shout out, scream out - all of us. But not at each other.

Most of the responses to the angry comments have been towards those slinging shit and insults at anyone who, god forbid, sees things differently, offers another view, acknowledges being beyond pissed off but looking in a different direction.

There's a feast of anger all around, man.

A fucking smorgasbord of it.

Why should it turn to in-fighting?

brianlux · July 2014

fuck said:

brianlux said:
What with all the name calling and personal attacks, I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet. The OP message is such a good one and it's really sad how it has been degraded. It really is possible to be outraged by the events in Gaza and still hope for peace. That doesn't make a person a hypocrite. And it really is possible to strongly disagree with someone without calling them names or declaring what others say is "a crock of shit".

I'm still for advocating peace on this thread and taking the ranting somewhere else. It doesn't mean I'm not outraged by much of what goes on in Gaza. It's just that I don't like to shit in the living room. That's what bathrooms are for. I don't see the point of raging in the sanctuary, that's what the courtroom or boxing ring is for.
No one is upset with your calls for peace. In fact, it is people like you (though I won't say you specifically because I haven't read closely enough to see if you've done this) who have insisted that one cannot be outraged about Gaza and also call for peace. It is people like you in this thread who have been trying to silence those of us calling attention to Israeli crimes. Every time someone talks about Israeli crimes in this thread, people come in and say "Stop! You're so angry while looking at murdered children! Let's just have peace!" What the fuck kind of contribution is that to an anti-war discussion? How is that even remotely constructive?

In my opinion, calling attention to crimes is what makes an anti-war discussion. I think it is beyond clear that everyone here is interested in peace, especially those outraged by the Israeli war on Gaza. The question is how to move forward. You can stay in Level 1 and come into this thread 4 times a day to make sure everyone wants peace over and over again, or you can come over to Level 2 and engage the actual points about how we can get there, who to hold responsible for crimes, and what we can do to bring about justice. It's really not complicated.

That's just not true. If you've read any of my post elsewhere where the outrage about Gaza is relevant and pertinent you would not say what you did above. That kind of provocation is uncalled for. Please don't make false statements about others.

badbrains · July 2014

Brian, I dnt think he was calling u out specifically. He mentions it a few lines up from what u highlighted in your post.

JimmyV · July 2014

badbrains said:
Brian, I dnt think he was calling u out specifically. He mentions it a few lines up from what u highlighted in your post.

But then he follows that up with the bolded text. " It is people like you in this thread who have been trying to silence those of us calling attention to Israeli crimes." Maybe that is an attack on others, but it is hard not to see it as an attack on Brian too. And it is most definitely an attack.

It seems to me that many of the pro-Israeli voices have retreated from this discussion. In their absence, some of the pro-Palestinian anger has been directed at people who are otherwise largely in agreement with their cause.

backseatLover12 · July 2014

brianlux said:
It's still about peace here.
I'm walking with the peace seekers on this thread. Sorry to see the anger still bumping up against ourselves here. It's just not very useful if it isn't forged with cooperation- even worse when exercised out of context.
Here, it's about peace.

Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

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