I really believe that there are a few people on this thread they would very strongly considering punching another member here in the head if the two should happen to meet. That's the vibe I get. Sorry if anyone doesn't want to hear that.
This thread is no longer about being against war or even about finding solutions for the conflict in Gaza. Don't kid yourselves. It's about several other things though- anger, the need to be right, the little jolt of satisfaction to the ego one gets by clever caricaturing of another in vague or generalized or sarcastic terms, the pride of believing one is more well informed than another and doing ones best to prove to everyone else how righteous and correct we are. Famous for 15 minutes, full of shit 8% of the time. All of us. And no one here has all the answers. I'd bet on that any day.
You are absolutely 100% correct Which is an opinion not fact. Which, like your post, means you will be most likely be ignored . Or insulted and degraded for daring to state your personal opinion.
So if Israel relinquished air, sea, and land crossing control over Gaza, it'd be a start. I agree.
I can actually see a loosening of restrictions on both Gaza and the West Bank now that the Palestinians are signing up to the ICC. Let's not kid ourselves, the Israeli leadership are shitting themselves about this. It's only a matter of time now before the whole lot of them end up in the Hague charged with multiple war crimes and crimes against humanity. And it's also a possibility - I'm not too sure about this - that certain individuals from Israel's chief sponsor and provider of arms - the U.S - will also end up there.
I don't think Israel's very worried about The Hague. I respect what The Hague does, but if you charge Israel you have to charge Hamas too.
I know we disagree here, but let's try and do it civilly.
So if Israel relinquished air, sea, and land crossing control over Gaza, it'd be a start. I agree.
I can actually see a loosening of restrictions on both Gaza and the West Bank now that the Palestinians are signing up to the ICC. Let's not kid ourselves, the Israeli leadership are shitting themselves about this. It's only a matter of time now before the whole lot of them end up in the Hague charged with multiple war crimes and crimes against humanity. And it's also a possibility - I'm not too sure about this - that certain individuals from Israel's chief sponsor and provider of arms - the U.S - will also end up there.
I don't think Israel's very worried about The Hague. I respect what The Hague does, but if you charge Israel you have to charge Hamas too.
I know we disagree here, but let's try and do it civilly.
Ironically, by Israel's presence in Gaza, Israel itself is ensuring that Hamas, in a trial, would not be charged as it could claim merely resisting an occupation.
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Right but in this case Israel technically has withdrawn from Gaza for some years now (although I agree that it has maintained de facto control) and re-entered as a response to the kidnapping and murder of three of its citizens.
From what I've read, Hamas's alleged criminals are prepared to face charges in the ICC so that Israel's alleged criminals can finally be brought before the ICC.
Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. That's why I keep repeating, what does a real resolution look like? Forcing Israel to back down is using a violent act, and violence only begets violence. It certainly doesn't cause peace. So far, Leeze, you are one of the few really attempting to think what peace would look like. I'm merely attempting to get people to actually start thinking in that direction rather than spinning the wheels of anger and finger pointing. Because, that gets us no where. You'd think more this concept would get into more people's heads.
You sound like a broken record playing to an empty room. And I couldn't care less whether you read my posts or not. I'm still gonna respond to your gibberish for the benefit of others.
What does a resolution look like? A resolution looks like the resolution that's already accepted by the whole World, and which has been repeatedly blocked by the U.S, which uses it's power of automatic veto to prevent it's implementation. But I know you don't care about these details. And once again you continue pretending that anybody in this thread has called for 'more violence'. I'm not sure why you insist on perpetuating this fantasy.
Byrnzie,In reality the resolution the "Whole World"recognizes Dosent and won't carry much weight here.When the fighting stops(hopefully)for good and this story moves past the front page,with no bad press flowing in either direction this conflict,war,occupation whatever title you give it will again be left to be brokered by just the main players and of course the USA and our allies,like your government.The rest of the world will sit back and do shit about Palestine just as it has done for 60 + years.Even the big Arab countries with all the money don't want to dirty their hands here. So it will boil down to Can the Israelies and the PA with the help of few(America'Egyptetc)generate proper dialogue to forge a forward with a peace plan.It is unrealistic no matter how loud you yell to think 3 months from now the world will be on the edge of their seats and protesting this issue.Some new travesty will take center stage.You know like what's up with the downed plane kinda thing. When Palestinians move away from Hamas,you will see other players get involved.I think these innocent Palestinians should be left to govern themselves and have open borders and live free of occupation,but the Israelies and the west will see to it that it Dosent happen with a known terrorist backed orginazation speaking for them. If only all these players would take advantage of the world stage they have right now and make some progress on the common ground they do have.Something truly meaningful and substantial could be at hand. Our(USA)$$ speaks very loud.Right or wrong it flows to everyone and those who recieve it won't stop the money train to rock the boat.I think the PA should request immediate aid from the USA to help rebuild and help with humanitarian issues since we are so involved in this mess.That might be a another good step in healing here.
So if Israel relinquished air, sea, and land crossing control over Gaza, it'd be a start. I agree.
I can actually see a loosening of restrictions on both Gaza and the West Bank now that the Palestinians are signing up to the ICC. Let's not kid ourselves, the Israeli leadership are shitting themselves about this. It's only a matter of time now before the whole lot of them end up in the Hague charged with multiple war crimes and crimes against humanity. And it's also a possibility - I'm not too sure about this - that certain individuals from Israel's chief sponsor and provider of arms - the U.S - will also end up there.
I agree they should be charged but, I don't believe that the US recognizes the ICC, could be wrong unless something has changed recently.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I really believe that there are a few people on this thread they would very strongly considering punching another member here in the head if the two should happen to meet. That's the vibe I get. Sorry if anyone doesn't want to hear that.
This thread is no longer about being against war or even about finding solutions for the conflict in Gaza. Don't kid yourselves. It's about several other things though- anger, the need to be right, the little jolt of satisfaction to the ego one gets by clever caricaturing of another in vague or generalized or sarcastic terms, the pride of believing one is more well informed than another and doing ones best to prove to everyone else how righteous and correct we are. Famous for 15 minutes, full of shit 8% of the time. All of us. And no one here has all the answers. I'd bet on that any day.
You are absolutely 100% correct Which is an opinion not fact. Which, like your post, means you will be most likely be ignored . Or insulted and degraded for daring to state your personal opinion.
Yes. Cheers to you both.
An aside - this almost seems like some kind of unintentional social experiment. Start with a peaceful anti-war post by someone who I assume most of us respect for our own reasons. Will it remain peaceful?
backseatLover12 (and to a lesser degree Leezestarr313), there is a very big distinction to be made between pointing fingers and taking positions. For example, as a politician, you're unlikely to receive respect in justifying a political action until you take a position. Is there anger here? Sure. But there's also a lot of good discussion, and viable solutions have been discussed (they are actually littered amongst the plethora of discussions around these forums).
As for what a 'real resolution' looks like, that's still foggy to me. I think at the very least, retreating to 1967 borders, liberating Gaza and the West Bank and allowing them to govern themselves, pushing the fishing boundaries a more reasonable distance and giving financial assistance to allow Gaza to recover from the primarily Israel-imposed devastation in the region would be a great start.
For those who cite security issues, I believe (and someone with a better concept of international law can confirm or deny this) Israel at that point would be entitled to fortify their agreed-upon borders, and it would be solely in the hands of the Palestinian Unity Government to assuage the security concerns of neighbouring countries (Israel included) in order to create their own trade agreements with them.
Edit: Just to clarify - when I say this would be a great "start", I mean that. I think far more is owed to the Palestinian people than what I've mentioned.
Agreed Benjs, but it's difficult to see good discussion (the last couple pages have been pretty good actually) when you are being attacked almost constantly.
Yeah, I brought the 'resolution' idea to the table to get a good, thought provoking discussion going. I admit I don't know the answer either, but it's good to throw around ideas. I'm just not sure about going back and retreating to borders from any date. Perhaps a new approach ti setting borders will and can come about. Who knows. At least the discussion is started.
i think there's more common ground on this forum than people realize, even among people starting from seemingly opposite positions, but it's important to realize that not everybody who defends some of what Israel does hates Palestinians or wants to see them suffer.
I don't think Israel's very worried about The Hague. I respect what The Hague does, but if you charge Israel you have to charge Hamas too.
I know we disagree here, but let's try and do it civilly.
Israel's crimes dwarf those of Hamas.
You just need to look at the past reports from all of the major human rights organizations to see that. Take any report from the investigations carried out into Cast Lead 2008-2009 - Amnesty, HRW, the Goldstone Report, etc - and approx 80-90% of the war crimes they deal with are those committed by Israel. Not really surprising when you consider the numbers of casualties on both sides.
Byrnzie,In reality the resolution the "Whole World"recognizes Dosent and won't carry much weight here.
Why did you put "whole World" in quotes?
When 167 countries support the two state solution based on U.N 242, and 6 countries vote against it - Israel, the U.S, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Paulau - does that not constitute the whole World? Essentially it does.
Alright, Byrnzie and some others, I know this article will bother you, but give it a read. If you disagree with it I'm happy to hear why as long as it's not "This article is lies lies" etc etc. I's an opinion piece, so the author is not putting it forward as hard fact, but it does articulate fairly well some of what I've been trying to say.
While ground-level coverage of the conflict between Israel and Hamas has been extensive, far too few in the media have asked Hamas spokesmen an obvious question: Why?
Why did Hamas instigate this war by firing hundreds of missiles and mortar shells in the weeks before Israel launched its operation? Why is Hamas continuing to launch missiles despite Israel’s largely successful efforts to shoot them down with the Iron Dome system? Why, on July 15, did Hamas reject an Egyptian ceasefire plan that was endorsed by the United Nations, accepted by Israel, and would have prevented the ground incursion in the first place? And why is Hamas continuing a conflict it is clearly losing and for which its fellow Palestinians have paid so dear a price?
These questions cannot be answered without a clear-eyed examination of Hamas’ motivations and those of one of its chief sponsors: the Islamic Republic of Iran. As an Iranian-Canadian who is deeply involved in the Iranian democracy movement, it has become all too clear to me that the Israel-Hamas war is just the latest painful symptom of the burgeoning relationship between Tehran and Palestinian terrorist groups. Tragically, Israelis and Gazans suffer as a result.
n July 23, Ayatollah Khamenei called for the arming of Palestinian terrorist groups in the West Bank. This should not be seen as an empty threat, given the fact that many of more than 2,000 missiles fired at Israel in recent weeks were either supplied by Iran or made in Gaza with Iranian technology. It is particularly disturbing to think of the devastating results – for both sides – were Hamas able to fire missiles from locations like Bethlehem, Ramallah, and the hills outside Jerusalem.
In the same remarks, Khamenei declared: “The armed resistance by the Palestinians is the only way to confront Israel … the only way to solve this problem is full annihilation and destruction of the Zionist regime.” By this, of course, Khamenei means the end of Israel: a member state of the United Nations and the only advanced democracy in the Middle East. It is on this point where Hamas and Tehran are kindred spirits.
The Hamas Covenant states that all of Palestine (in which it includes Israel) must be governed under Sharia Law and cannot be ceded to a non-Islamic state. Article 13 of the Covenant further declares: “Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement … There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad.”
Imagine how these words read to Gazans who want nothing more than for their children to enjoy peace, prosperity, and the everyday benefits that come with liberal democracy. Further consider how this rejectionist language (and the violence it inspires) undermines Palestinian moderates who have eschewed violence and embraced the path of negotiations with Israel.
After Israel evacuated its citizens and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, Hamas was able to seize control of the territory in less than two years. How long would it take an emboldened Hamas, with Iranian backing, to do likewise should Israel withdraw from the West Bank? Such a prospect is as much a threat to Mahmoud Abbas and moderate Palestinians as it is to Israelis.
Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,937
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Byrnzie,In reality the resolution the "Whole World"recognizes Dosent and won't carry much weight here.
Why did you put "whole World" in quotes?
When 167 countries support the two state solution based on U.N 242, and 6 countries vote against it - Israel, the U.S, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Paulau - does that not constitute the whole World? Essentially it does.
What does a resolution look like? A resolution looks like the resolution that's already accepted by the whole World, and which has been repeatedly blocked by the U.S, which uses it's power of automatic veto to prevent it's implementation. But I know you don't care about these details. And once again you continue pretending that anybody in this thread has called for 'more violence'. I'm not sure why you insist on perpetuating this fantasy.
I was referencing the resolution you mentioned above.Im driving so I just used quotes to show you what I was talking about.Sorry for confusion. Also my point that it won't matter what the rest of the world thinks.We(USA)will do what is in our best interest anyway.regardless of world view.
Byrnzie,In reality the resolution the "Whole World"recognizes Dosent and won't carry much weight here.
Why did you put "whole World" in quotes?
When 167 countries support the two state solution based on U.N 242, and 6 countries vote against it - Israel, the U.S, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Paulau - does that not constitute the whole World? Essentially it does.
I hardly think that the exclusion of all of North America still constitutes the "whole world".
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
guys, this is a sarcastic anti-israel twitter account. this is just some dude spouting off anti-israel shit.
be that as it may, the math here still fits. That IS what the Israeli government states isnt it? That they are responding in a proportional way? Stating such reveals to me that the Israeli gov sees Palestinians as less than them or less than human.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
I agree with your thinking here.Ive said the same thing.
Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
I agree with your thinking here.Ive said the same thing.
While, as I'm sure everyone agrees, it doesn't excuse any of the Israeli Government's actions, I too agree with that statement. YES, right now the number 1 priority to stop people from being killed and to make sure that people are treating humanely and with respect.... But let this not blind us to what Hamas is all about as well.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
I agree with your thinking here.Ive said the same thing.
While, as I'm sure everyone agrees, it doesn't excuse any of the Israeli Government's actions, I too agree with that statement. YES, right now the number 1 priority to stop people from being killed and to make sure that people are treating humanely and with respect.... But let this not blind us to what Hamas is all about as well.
If Israel surrenders Gaza and the West Bank to be governed solely by the Palestinian Authority, dismantles the Jewish settlements, retreats and fortifies its borders around undisputed Israel, Hamas will be in a position where any acts of terror will be irrefutably perceived as terrorism (and not just by Israel and the US), and Israel will have fortified borders to defend themselves.
Just as I've tried to look at logic to see how the region arrived where it is now, it is necessary to project forward to the two scenarios which could arise if Gaza and the West Bank are liberated to be governed by the Palestinian Authority without Israeli restrictions on air/land/water traffic. These are my suppositions on what could happen:
1) Hamas continues to send rockets into Israel. In this scenario, rockets continue to be lobbed from Palestinian borders into Israel. Israel would then have the right to disallow goods and personnel traffic to and from Gaza. The nation of Palestine would likely be condemned by the UN and the rest of the world, and goods influx would diminish rapidly. Egypt already is not on good terms with Hamas. The people of Palestine would likely revolt against Hamas, with the recognition that Hamas' goals are clearly not aligned with those of the Palestinians.
2) Hamas ceases sending rockets into Israel. Israelis and Palestinians can finally begin what will inevitably be a lengthy process of peace restorations. There will be skepticism and mistrust, and over time (maybe decades), this will dissipate.
As always, if I'm misinformed or anyone has additional input, by all means please contribute
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Why, on July 15, did Hamas reject an Egyptian ceasefire plan that was endorsed by the United Nations, accepted by Israel, and would have prevented the ground incursion in the first place?
Because Hamas were not involved in those ceasefire negotiations, and because the ceasefire proposal would have done nothing except return the situation back to the status quo, in which the Israeli's could continue illegally blockading Gaza and attacking it at will. Have you not been paying attention?
Comments
Which is an opinion not fact.
Which, like your post, means you will be most likely be ignored . Or insulted and degraded for daring to state your personal opinion.
I know we disagree here, but let's try and do it civilly.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Again, from what I've read.
So it will boil down to Can the Israelies and the PA with the help of few(America'Egyptetc)generate proper dialogue to forge a forward with a peace plan.It is unrealistic no matter how loud you yell to think 3 months from now the world will be on the edge of their seats and protesting this issue.Some new travesty will take center stage.You know like what's up with the downed plane kinda thing.
When Palestinians move away from Hamas,you will see other players get involved.I think these innocent Palestinians should be left to govern themselves and have open borders and live free of occupation,but the Israelies and the west will see to it that it Dosent happen with a known terrorist backed orginazation speaking for them.
If only all these players would take advantage of the world stage they have right now and make some progress on the common ground they do have.Something truly meaningful and substantial could be at hand.
Our(USA)$$ speaks very loud.Right or wrong it flows to everyone and those who recieve it won't stop the money train to rock the boat.I think the PA should request immediate aid from the USA to help rebuild and help with humanitarian issues since we are so involved in this mess.That might be a another good step in healing here.
I don't believe that the US recognizes the ICC,
could be wrong unless something has changed recently.
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2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
An aside - this almost seems like some kind of unintentional social experiment. Start with a peaceful anti-war post by someone who I assume most of us respect for our own reasons. Will it remain peaceful?
Page 54 in this laboratory, and we're just...
Yeah, I brought the 'resolution' idea to the table to get a good, thought provoking discussion going. I admit I don't know the answer either, but it's good to throw around ideas. I'm just not sure about going back and retreating to borders from any date. Perhaps a new approach ti setting borders will and can come about. Who knows. At least the discussion is started.
You just need to look at the past reports from all of the major human rights organizations to see that. Take any report from the investigations carried out into Cast Lead 2008-2009 - Amnesty, HRW, the Goldstone Report, etc - and approx 80-90% of the war crimes they deal with are those committed by Israel. Not really surprising when you consider the numbers of casualties on both sides.
When 167 countries support the two state solution based on U.N 242, and 6 countries vote against it - Israel, the U.S, Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Paulau - does that not constitute the whole World? Essentially it does.
http://www.montrealgazette.com/touch/story.html?id=10079663
By Sayeh Hassan, Ottawa Citizen July 31, 2014
While ground-level coverage of the conflict between Israel and Hamas has been extensive, far too few in the media have asked Hamas spokesmen an obvious question: Why?
Why did Hamas instigate this war by firing hundreds of missiles and mortar shells in the weeks before Israel launched its operation? Why is Hamas continuing to launch missiles despite Israel’s largely successful efforts to shoot them down with the Iron Dome system? Why, on July 15, did Hamas reject an Egyptian ceasefire plan that was endorsed by the United Nations, accepted by Israel, and would have prevented the ground incursion in the first place? And why is Hamas continuing a conflict it is clearly losing and for which its fellow Palestinians have paid so dear a price?
These questions cannot be answered without a clear-eyed examination of Hamas’ motivations and those of one of its chief sponsors: the Islamic Republic of Iran. As an Iranian-Canadian who is deeply involved in the Iranian democracy movement, it has become all too clear to me that the Israel-Hamas war is just the latest painful symptom of the burgeoning relationship between Tehran and Palestinian terrorist groups. Tragically, Israelis and Gazans suffer as a result.
In the same remarks, Khamenei declared: “The armed resistance by the Palestinians is the only way to confront Israel … the only way to solve this problem is full annihilation and destruction of the Zionist regime.” By this, of course, Khamenei means the end of Israel: a member state of the United Nations and the only advanced democracy in the Middle East. It is on this point where Hamas and Tehran are kindred spirits.
The Hamas Covenant states that all of Palestine (in which it includes Israel) must be governed under Sharia Law and cannot be ceded to a non-Islamic state. Article 13 of the Covenant further declares: “Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement … There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad.”
Imagine how these words read to Gazans who want nothing more than for their children to enjoy peace, prosperity, and the everyday benefits that come with liberal democracy. Further consider how this rejectionist language (and the violence it inspires) undermines Palestinian moderates who have eschewed violence and embraced the path of negotiations with Israel.
After Israel evacuated its citizens and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, Hamas was able to seize control of the territory in less than two years. How long would it take an emboldened Hamas, with Iranian backing, to do likewise should Israel withdraw from the West Bank? Such a prospect is as much a threat to Mahmoud Abbas and moderate Palestinians as it is to Israelis.
The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.
Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
http://www.tmz.com/2014/08/07/joan-rivers-rants-palestine-civilian-deaths-israel-hamas-video/
Who could blame her hubby for murkin himself all those years ago.
I was referencing the resolution you mentioned above.Im driving so I just used quotes to show you what I was talking about.Sorry for confusion.
Also my point that it won't matter what the rest of the world thinks.We(USA)will do what is in our best interest anyway.regardless of world view.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Just as I've tried to look at logic to see how the region arrived where it is now, it is necessary to project forward to the two scenarios which could arise if Gaza and the West Bank are liberated to be governed by the Palestinian Authority without Israeli restrictions on air/land/water traffic. These are my suppositions on what could happen:
1) Hamas continues to send rockets into Israel.
In this scenario, rockets continue to be lobbed from Palestinian borders into Israel. Israel would then have the right to disallow goods and personnel traffic to and from Gaza. The nation of Palestine would likely be condemned by the UN and the rest of the world, and goods influx would diminish rapidly. Egypt already is not on good terms with Hamas. The people of Palestine would likely revolt against Hamas, with the recognition that Hamas' goals are clearly not aligned with those of the Palestinians.
2) Hamas ceases sending rockets into Israel.
Israelis and Palestinians can finally begin what will inevitably be a lengthy process of peace restorations. There will be skepticism and mistrust, and over time (maybe decades), this will dissipate.
As always, if I'm misinformed or anyone has additional input, by all means please contribute
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1