Gaza ***GRAPHIC PICS***

Byrnzie said:

Clearly a unified Palestinian government was unacceptable to the Israeli's, as it represented a serious threat to their maintaining of the status quo - occupation, and continued settlement expansion - so they needed a pretext for trying to destroy it.

Unfortunately some people actually believe the bullshit they're spoon-fed by the glossy lipped bimbo's on Fox News, and think that Hamas are responsible for being bombed, and for Palestinian women and children being blown to pieces, and that Israel is now defending itself from the threat of extinction.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

this is the crux of it. israel opposes the unity government because the united government is the ONLY thing that is a legitimate thread to the status quo of occupation, theft of land, expansion of settlements, blockade, intimidation, subjugation. the UN will do nothing, the US will support anything israel wants to do.

to those opposing the palestinians, if you were in their situation, if you lived in their reality, what would YOU do? the first thing i would do is form a unity government, because 2 fighting palestinian sides harms palentinians more than it helps.

and the cease fire rejected by hamas, that never even formally reached hamas for them to review it. it seems israel is releasing proposed cease fire to the media and telling them hamas is rejecting them knowing that hamas has never even been made aware of the terms. this is propaganda and it is being spread by pro-israeli media outlets. and it is fucking disgusting.

Last-12-Exit said:

Byrnzie, I didn't say that. I didn't say Isreal is an innocent bystander to Palestinian terror. The point I was making was that both sides need to come together, forget about the past, and move forward. If thats naive, fine. But this has to stop. BOTH SIDES HAVE TO STOP in order for peace to work.

you can't forget about the past.

if your dad, or uncle, or brother, or grandfather or great grandfather had crimes committed against them by the israelis, or were murdered or tortured be israelis, would you forget about it? this is like telling jewish people to forget about the holocaust.

this is a generational conflict now. actually it is not even much of a conflict. it is a systematic ass beating by israel designed to keep the palestinians under their thumb and under their control. israel is not going to stop until they displace all palestinians and claim all of that land for themselves. then they will have their jewish only state. that is the definition of ethnic cleansing, and last i checked, people have been executed for war crimes based on similar criteria.

Byrnzie said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/02/palestinian-unity-government-sworn-in-fatah-hamas
Palestinian unity government of Fatah and Hamas sworn in
Ceremony paves way for long-delayed elections in Gaza and West Bank, but US expresses concern about role of Hamas
2 June 2014


The ministers and prime minister of the new Palestinian unity government swear in front of the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, in Ramallah.

After seven years of a bitter and at times lethalrivalry between the two main Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, a historic Palestinian unity government has been sworn in , ending years of division.

The signing ceremony, which seems likely to complicate relations with the Palestinian Authority's international aid donors in Europe and the US and increase tensions with Israel, was broadcast live in Gaza and the West Bank.

Despite the US secretary of state, John Kerry, telephoning the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to express "concern about Hamas's role in any such government" ahead of the ceremony, the US said on Monday night that it would work with the new government but that it would be "watching closely to ensure that it upholds principles that President Abbas reiterated today", State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.

......................

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html
Hamas offers Israel 10 conditions for a 10 year truce
Ira Glunts on July 16, 2014 86


Hamas is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it accepts 10 conditions.

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.

I will not stop asking until you give me answers (and truthfully, I find it strange that you haven't, since these are pretty reasonable questions that I honestly would like to find the answer to, but I can't). Has the ten year truce been formally delivered to the Israelis, and if so, do you know why there has been no response when the other ceasefire offers were almost immediately declined?


And again - why is this a ten year truce, as opposed to an indefinite peace, and what happens afterwards? There is a comment on your linked post summarizing the truce conditions that suggests that, according to Hamas, this ten year truce is to give Israel the necessary time to get out of the totality of historic Palestine. I found a map of what is said to be 'historic Palestine' (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_map_a_palestinian_nation_thwarted_speaking_truth_to_power_20140714). Would the 'historic Palestine' moniker refer to Palestinian and Jewish land in 1946? If so, would you honestly expect Israel to be open to a ceasefire whose end goal is a shift to those borders? Since it appears that you're a fan of quantitative data, you refer to the skewed global perception of which nations believes that the occupations of Israel's are illegitimate (something like all members of the UN deem them illegitimate except for four countries - two of which are Israel and the US), and therefore call for the abolishment of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian zones. Since the UN has 193 member states, with 32 refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Israel, that leaves 83% feeling that Israel is a legitimate state - surprisingly low, but statistically deeming it a legitimate state. Would agreeing to a ceasefire with this end goal not represent an admission of the illegitimacy of Israel BY Israel, and contradict the whole notion that global consensus should be let to determine the legitimacy of a People, and not a deal which provides ten years of peace for its residents?
Please let me know if I need to re-word that for clarification or if I'm mistaken at any part along the way.

this thing needs shut down. back and forth with bullshit personal stuff.

benjs said:

Byrnzie said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/02/palestinian-unity-government-sworn-in-fatah-hamas
Palestinian unity government of Fatah and Hamas sworn in
Ceremony paves way for long-delayed elections in Gaza and West Bank, but US expresses concern about role of Hamas
2 June 2014


The ministers and prime minister of the new Palestinian unity government swear in front of the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, in Ramallah.

After seven years of a bitter and at times lethalrivalry between the two main Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, a historic Palestinian unity government has been sworn in , ending years of division.

The signing ceremony, which seems likely to complicate relations with the Palestinian Authority's international aid donors in Europe and the US and increase tensions with Israel, was broadcast live in Gaza and the West Bank.

Despite the US secretary of state, John Kerry, telephoning the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to express "concern about Hamas's role in any such government" ahead of the ceremony, the US said on Monday night that it would work with the new government but that it would be "watching closely to ensure that it upholds principles that President Abbas reiterated today", State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.

......................

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html
Hamas offers Israel 10 conditions for a 10 year truce
Ira Glunts on July 16, 2014 86


Hamas is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it accepts 10 conditions.

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.

I will not stop asking until you give me answers (and truthfully, I find it strange that you haven't, since these are pretty reasonable questions that I honestly would like to find the answer to, but I can't). Has the ten year truce been formally delivered to the Israelis, and if so, do you know why there has been no response when the other ceasefire offers were almost immediately declined?


And again - why is this a ten year truce, as opposed to an indefinite peace, and what happens afterwards? There is a comment on your linked post summarizing the truce conditions that suggests that, according to Hamas, this ten year truce is to give Israel the necessary time to get out of the totality of historic Palestine. I found a map of what is said to be 'historic Palestine' (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_map_a_palestinian_nation_thwarted_speaking_truth_to_power_20140714). Would the 'historic Palestine' moniker refer to Palestinian and Jewish land in 1946? If so, would you honestly expect Israel to be open to a ceasefire whose end goal is a shift to those borders? Since it appears that you're a fan of quantitative data, you refer to the skewed global perception of which nations believes that the occupations of Israel's are illegitimate (something like all members of the UN deem them illegitimate except for four countries - two of which are Israel and the US), and therefore call for the abolishment of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian zones. Since the UN has 193 member states, with 32 refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Israel, that leaves 83% feeling that Israel is a legitimate state - surprisingly low, but statistically deeming it a legitimate state. Would agreeing to a ceasefire with this end goal not represent an admission of the illegitimacy of Israel BY Israel, and contradict the whole notion that global consensus should be let to determine the legitimacy of a People, and not a deal which provides ten years of peace for its residents?
Please let me know if I need to re-word that for clarification or if I'm mistaken at any part along the way.

Permanant peace seems to be unreachable as a starting point, doesn't it? So to me anyway, it seems reasonable for the 10 years. Perhaps in that time a more permanant solution can be arrived at.

Unless Israel is looking at a final solution instead.

CM189191 said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

this thing needs shut down. back and forth with bullshit personal stuff.

Yeah, the argument seems to be bases on some misunderstanding. I'm not sure what CM's link was intended to say and it leaves a lot of room for uncertainty that way. Maybe some clarification there?

I think we all want peace but nerves fray around this shit.

Here's the clarification:
I keep hearing people say Israel is just defending itself. That they aren't just outright murdering Palestinians. And here you have Israelis literally calling for genocide. Calling Arabs second class citizens, animals and to torch them alive.

To say they are just defending themselves doesn't hold water for me anymore. In the words of RR, if they don't like the situation they're living in, perhaps they should just move? May I suggest Florida?

I'm guessing with a little looking we could find tweets and such by Palestinians calling for Israeli genocide as well. A lot of hate flies in both directions. What a mess.