I have seen no reason to believe that said unity government is able to make leadership decisions for the people of Gaza.
So what? Are you gonna try and pretend that you've been following the political developments of the unity government since it's inception? Because you didn't even know that there was a unity government until I told you yesterday.
Byrnzie,your a fucking machine,I will give you that.You must have an anti Israel data base like a encyclopedia.Google must pay you for your visits.Correct me if I'm wrong(I know you will and think I am)But its not just Israel that wants Hamas out.All the moderate surrounding Arab states do.Your clinging to a sinking ship getting into bed with them.You guys can do better for representation.
First of all, wow, you did what most news organizations do taking half of what I said out and editing it to prove your point. I'm aware that there were agreements in the past and most of them were broken by the Israelis. Secondly, what the point of the first paragraph in my post was that I haven't seen you write a post that puts any fault or blame on the Palestinians.
Fault or blame for what? The occupation? Great, then go ahead and enlighten me as to how the Palestinians are at fault for being ethnically cleansed, and routinely terrorized.
I can't enlighten you. Sure, I could Google Palestinian terrorism towards Israel and post it here, but that is useless because you will say the source isn't credible or that somehow Israel did something first. Are you saying that no blame lies in the Palestinian side? That Israel is 100% at fault? I'm in full support for Palestine here Byrnzie, but it's that attitude that prevents any forward progress towards a permanent peace.
I could Google Palestinian terrorism towards Israel and post it here, but that is useless because you will say the source isn't credible or that somehow Israel did something first. Are you saying that no blame lies in the Palestinian side? That Israel is 100% at fault
You know there's an occupation, right? You know that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land, and has been slowly but surely stealing more and more of that land, and subjecting the Palestinian people to daily humiliations, beatings, torture, house demolitions, military incursions, and extra-judicial assassinations, right? But you want to try and pretend that the Palestinian are somehow to blame for this? Go ahead then. Explain to me how those under occupation are responsible for being occupied.
Do you think that Palestinian suicide attacks are the cause of the occupation and land-grab? Do you think that rocket attacks are the cause of the occupation and land-grab?
Were the Jews partly responsible for being sent to the gas chambers during WWII? I mean, there were many Jewish partisan groups active during the war that killed Germans. So was the holocaust partly their fault?
Please explain to me how those under occupation are responsible for being occupied.
Please, when you quote my posts, quote all of it. Because what happens is you take the entire post out of context. Addressing portions of the post does no good when the main idea is omitted and not addressed.
Of course the Palestinians are to blame for being occupied. They're also to blame for being dispossessed of their land in 1948, and ethnically cleansed. And they're to blame for having Jewish-only illegal settlements built on their land. Until the Palestinians do as the Israeli's want and lie down and die, then they will always be to blame. The Palestinians are fighting to hold onto the 20% of their homeland that remains to them. But of course they're to blame for being routinely attacked by settler groups, bombed, bulldozed, and otherwise humiliated on an almost daily basis. And they're also to blame when Israeli snipers murder their children - on average, one Palestinian child killed by the Israeli's every three days for the past 13 years.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam '...the Palestinians made much the most far-reaching compromise of all when the PLO formally accepted the legitimacy of Israel within the 1949 armistice border. With that concession, Palestinians ceded their claim to more than half the territory that the UN’s partition resolution had assigned to its Arab inhabitants. They have never received any credit for this wrenching concession, made years before Israel agreed that Palestinians had a right to statehood in any part of Palestine. The notion that further border adjustments should be made at the expense of the 22 per cent of the territory that remains to the Palestinians is deeply offensive to them, and understandably so.
Nonetheless, the Palestinians agreed at the Camp David summit to adjustments to the pre-1967 border that would allow large numbers of West Bank settlers – about 70 per cent – to remain within the Jewish state, provided they received comparable territory on Israel’s side of the border. Barak rejected this.'
Byrnzie, I didn't say that. I didn't say Isreal is an innocent bystander to Palestinian terror. The point I was making was that both sides need to come together, forget about the past, and move forward. If thats naive, fine. But this has to stop. BOTH SIDES HAVE TO STOP in order for peace to work.
Please, when you quote my posts, quote all of it. Because what happens is you take the entire post out of context. Addressing portions of the post does no good when the main idea is omitted and not addressed.
Sure, you said that you fully support Palestine. Was that the main idea of your post? The main idea of your post was that the Palestinians are responsible, or partly responsible for being oppressed and terrorized. Now please explain to me how those under occupation are responsible for being occupied, oppressed, and terrorized.
Three Israeli children are kidnapped and murdered and Western leaders and the mainstream media tell us that Israel has a right of 'self-defence' and a right to bomb Gaza. Over 1,500 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israeli's since the year 2000, and nobody gives a fuck.
Clearly a unified Palestinian government was unacceptable to the Israeli's, as it represented a serious threat to their maintaining of the status quo - occupation, and continued settlement expansion - so they needed a pretext for trying to destroy it.
Unfortunately some people actually believe the bullshit they're spoon-fed by the glossy lipped bimbo's on Fox News, and think that Hamas are responsible for being bombed, and for Palestinian women and children being blown to pieces, and that Israel is now defending itself from the threat of extinction.
Welcome to the 21st Century.
this is the crux of it. israel opposes the unity government because the united government is the ONLY thing that is a legitimate thread to the status quo of occupation, theft of land, expansion of settlements, blockade, intimidation, subjugation. the UN will do nothing, the US will support anything israel wants to do.
to those opposing the palestinians, if you were in their situation, if you lived in their reality, what would YOU do? the first thing i would do is form a unity government, because 2 fighting palestinian sides harms palentinians more than it helps.
and the cease fire rejected by hamas, that never even formally reached hamas for them to review it. it seems israel is releasing proposed cease fire to the media and telling them hamas is rejecting them knowing that hamas has never even been made aware of the terms. this is propaganda and it is being spread by pro-israeli media outlets. and it is fucking disgusting.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Byrnzie, I didn't say that. I didn't say Isreal is an innocent bystander to Palestinian terror. The point I was making was that both sides need to come together, forget about the past, and move forward. If thats naive, fine. But this has to stop. BOTH SIDES HAVE TO STOP in order for peace to work.
you can't forget about the past.
if your dad, or uncle, or brother, or grandfather or great grandfather had crimes committed against them by the israelis, or were murdered or tortured be israelis, would you forget about it? this is like telling jewish people to forget about the holocaust.
this is a generational conflict now. actually it is not even much of a conflict. it is a systematic ass beating by israel designed to keep the palestinians under their thumb and under their control. israel is not going to stop until they displace all palestinians and claim all of that land for themselves. then they will have their jewish only state. that is the definition of ethnic cleansing, and last i checked, people have been executed for war crimes based on similar criteria.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
i am waiting for anonymous to hack or shut down some israeli sites, and then those responsible for the hacks will be arrested and prosecuted while the ground war and mass murder continues unabated.
because you know that is exactly how it will play out.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
The ministers and prime minister of the new Palestinian unity government swear in front of the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, in Ramallah.
After seven years of a bitter and at times lethalrivalry between the two main Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, a historic Palestinian unity government has been sworn in , ending years of division.
The signing ceremony, which seems likely to complicate relations with the Palestinian Authority's international aid donors in Europe and the US and increase tensions with Israel, was broadcast live in Gaza and the West Bank.
Despite the US secretary of state, John Kerry, telephoning the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to express "concern about Hamas's role in any such government" ahead of the ceremony, the US said on Monday night that it would work with the new government but that it would be "watching closely to ensure that it upholds principles that President Abbas reiterated today", State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.
Hamas is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it accepts 10 conditions.
Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.
Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.
Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.
Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.
Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.
International forces on the borders.
Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.
Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.
Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.
I will not stop asking until you give me answers (and truthfully, I find it strange that you haven't, since these are pretty reasonable questions that I honestly would like to find the answer to, but I can't). Has the ten year truce been formally delivered to the Israelis, and if so, do you know why there has been no response when the other ceasefire offers were almost immediately declined?
And again - why is this a ten year truce, as opposed to an indefinite peace, and what happens afterwards? There is a comment on your linked post summarizing the truce conditions that suggests that, according to Hamas, this ten year truce is to give Israel the necessary time to get out of the totality of historic Palestine. I found a map of what is said to be 'historic Palestine' (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_map_a_palestinian_nation_thwarted_speaking_truth_to_power_20140714). Would the 'historic Palestine' moniker refer to Palestinian and Jewish land in 1946? If so, would you honestly expect Israel to be open to a ceasefire whose end goal is a shift to those borders? Since it appears that you're a fan of quantitative data, you refer to the skewed global perception of which nations believes that the occupations of Israel's are illegitimate (something like all members of the UN deem them illegitimate except for four countries - two of which are Israel and the US), and therefore call for the abolishment of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian zones. Since the UN has 193 member states, with 32 refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Israel, that leaves 83% feeling that Israel is a legitimate state - surprisingly low, but statistically deeming it a legitimate state. Would agreeing to a ceasefire with this end goal not represent an admission of the illegitimacy of Israel BY Israel, and contradict the whole notion that global consensus should be let to determine the legitimacy of a People, and not a deal which provides ten years of peace for its residents? Please let me know if I need to re-word that for clarification or if I'm mistaken at any part along the way.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
isreal and the united states would reject this because of these conditions alone:
Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people. israel will never cede any control over the borders, because then they would have to let palestinians in at any border at any time, and they will never allow that.
Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
this will never be allowed to happen. israel will never cede this kind of power to the UN, and the US would never allow that to happen because obama would be mercilessly attacked by republicans who view the UN with outright contempt.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
this thing needs shut down. back and forth with bullshit personal stuff.
Yeah, the argument seems to be bases on some misunderstanding. I'm not sure what CM's link was intended to say and it leaves a lot of room for uncertainty that way. Maybe some clarification there?
I think we all want peace but nerves fray around this shit.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
The ministers and prime minister of the new Palestinian unity government swear in front of the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, in Ramallah.
After seven years of a bitter and at times lethalrivalry between the two main Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, a historic Palestinian unity government has been sworn in , ending years of division.
The signing ceremony, which seems likely to complicate relations with the Palestinian Authority's international aid donors in Europe and the US and increase tensions with Israel, was broadcast live in Gaza and the West Bank.
Despite the US secretary of state, John Kerry, telephoning the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to express "concern about Hamas's role in any such government" ahead of the ceremony, the US said on Monday night that it would work with the new government but that it would be "watching closely to ensure that it upholds principles that President Abbas reiterated today", State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said.
Hamas is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it accepts 10 conditions.
Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.
Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.
Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.
Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.
Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.
International forces on the borders.
Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.
Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.
Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.
I will not stop asking until you give me answers (and truthfully, I find it strange that you haven't, since these are pretty reasonable questions that I honestly would like to find the answer to, but I can't). Has the ten year truce been formally delivered to the Israelis, and if so, do you know why there has been no response when the other ceasefire offers were almost immediately declined?
And again - why is this a ten year truce, as opposed to an indefinite peace, and what happens afterwards? There is a comment on your linked post summarizing the truce conditions that suggests that, according to Hamas, this ten year truce is to give Israel the necessary time to get out of the totality of historic Palestine. I found a map of what is said to be 'historic Palestine' (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_map_a_palestinian_nation_thwarted_speaking_truth_to_power_20140714). Would the 'historic Palestine' moniker refer to Palestinian and Jewish land in 1946? If so, would you honestly expect Israel to be open to a ceasefire whose end goal is a shift to those borders? Since it appears that you're a fan of quantitative data, you refer to the skewed global perception of which nations believes that the occupations of Israel's are illegitimate (something like all members of the UN deem them illegitimate except for four countries - two of which are Israel and the US), and therefore call for the abolishment of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian zones. Since the UN has 193 member states, with 32 refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Israel, that leaves 83% feeling that Israel is a legitimate state - surprisingly low, but statistically deeming it a legitimate state. Would agreeing to a ceasefire with this end goal not represent an admission of the illegitimacy of Israel BY Israel, and contradict the whole notion that global consensus should be let to determine the legitimacy of a People, and not a deal which provides ten years of peace for its residents? Please let me know if I need to re-word that for clarification or if I'm mistaken at any part along the way.
Permanant peace seems to be unreachable as a starting point, doesn't it? So to me anyway, it seems reasonable for the 10 years. Perhaps in that time a more permanant solution can be arrived at.
Unless Israel is looking at a final solution instead.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Some things to consider: The wars in the middle east are seemingly unending. Much of our energy still comes from the middle east. Our efforts to curb war are either futile or simply add to the fire. There may not be anything we can do at this point to help the situation. Might it make more sense for us to start preparing for a post-oil world?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
this thing needs shut down. back and forth with bullshit personal stuff.
Yeah, the argument seems to be bases on some misunderstanding. I'm not sure what CM's link was intended to say and it leaves a lot of room for uncertainty that way. Maybe some clarification there?
I think we all want peace but nerves fray around this shit.
Here's the clarification: I keep hearing people say Israel is just defending itself. That they aren't just outright murdering Palestinians. And here you have Israelis literally calling for genocide. Calling Arabs second class citizens, animals and to torch them alive.
To say they are just defending themselves doesn't hold water for me anymore. In the words of RR, if they don't like the situation they're living in, perhaps they should just move? May I suggest Florida?
this thing needs shut down. back and forth with bullshit personal stuff.
Yeah, the argument seems to be bases on some misunderstanding. I'm not sure what CM's link was intended to say and it leaves a lot of room for uncertainty that way. Maybe some clarification there?
I think we all want peace but nerves fray around this shit.
Here's the clarification: I keep hearing people say Israel is just defending itself. That they aren't just outright murdering Palestinians. And here you have Israelis literally calling for genocide. Calling Arabs second class citizens, animals and to torch them alive.
To say they are just defending themselves doesn't hold water for me anymore. In the words of RR, if they don't like the situation they're living in, perhaps they should just move? May I suggest Florida?
Oh shit! Pretty clear to me. Florida, the new tel aviv. Hahahaha
this thing needs shut down. back and forth with bullshit personal stuff.
Yeah, the argument seems to be bases on some misunderstanding. I'm not sure what CM's link was intended to say and it leaves a lot of room for uncertainty that way. Maybe some clarification there?
I think we all want peace but nerves fray around this shit.
Here's the clarification: I keep hearing people say Israel is just defending itself. That they aren't just outright murdering Palestinians. And here you have Israelis literally calling for genocide. Calling Arabs second class citizens, animals and to torch them alive.
To say they are just defending themselves doesn't hold water for me anymore. In the words of RR, if they don't like the situation they're living in, perhaps they should just move? May I suggest Florida?
I'm guessing with a little looking we could find tweets and such by Palestinians calling for Israeli genocide as well. A lot of hate flies in both directions. What a mess.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Comments
Are you saying that no blame lies in the Palestinian side? That Israel is 100% at fault? I'm in full support for Palestine here Byrnzie, but it's that attitude that prevents any forward progress towards a permanent peace.
Do you think that Palestinian suicide attacks are the cause of the occupation and land-grab?
Do you think that rocket attacks are the cause of the occupation and land-grab?
Were the Jews partly responsible for being sent to the gas chambers during WWII? I mean, there were many Jewish partisan groups active during the war that killed Germans. So was the holocaust partly their fault?
Please explain to me how those under occupation are responsible for being occupied.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-siegman/the-great-middle-east-peace-process-scam
'...the Palestinians made much the most far-reaching compromise of all when the PLO formally accepted the legitimacy of Israel within the 1949 armistice border. With that concession, Palestinians ceded their claim to more than half the territory that the UN’s partition resolution had assigned to its Arab inhabitants. They have never received any credit for this wrenching concession, made years before Israel agreed that Palestinians had a right to statehood in any part of Palestine. The notion that further border adjustments should be made at the expense of the 22 per cent of the territory that remains to the Palestinians is deeply offensive to them, and understandably so.
Nonetheless, the Palestinians agreed at the Camp David summit to adjustments to the pre-1967 border that would allow large numbers of West Bank settlers – about 70 per cent – to remain within the Jewish state, provided they received comparable territory on Israel’s side of the border. Barak rejected this.'
Over 1,500 Palestinian children have been killed by the Israeli's since the year 2000, and nobody gives a fuck.
Welcome to the 21st Century.
to those opposing the palestinians, if you were in their situation, if you lived in their reality, what would YOU do? the first thing i would do is form a unity government, because 2 fighting palestinian sides harms palentinians more than it helps.
and the cease fire rejected by hamas, that never even formally reached hamas for them to review it. it seems israel is releasing proposed cease fire to the media and telling them hamas is rejecting them knowing that hamas has never even been made aware of the terms. this is propaganda and it is being spread by pro-israeli media outlets. and it is fucking disgusting.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
if your dad, or uncle, or brother, or grandfather or great grandfather had crimes committed against them by the israelis, or were murdered or tortured be israelis, would you forget about it? this is like telling jewish people to forget about the holocaust.
this is a generational conflict now. actually it is not even much of a conflict. it is a systematic ass beating by israel designed to keep the palestinians under their thumb and under their control. israel is not going to stop until they displace all palestinians and claim all of that land for themselves. then they will have their jewish only state. that is the definition of ethnic cleansing, and last i checked, people have been executed for war crimes based on similar criteria.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
because you know that is exactly how it will play out.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
And again - why is this a ten year truce, as opposed to an indefinite peace, and what happens afterwards? There is a comment on your linked post summarizing the truce conditions that suggests that, according to Hamas, this ten year truce is to give Israel the necessary time to get out of the totality of historic Palestine. I found a map of what is said to be 'historic Palestine' (http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_map_a_palestinian_nation_thwarted_speaking_truth_to_power_20140714). Would the 'historic Palestine' moniker refer to Palestinian and Jewish land in 1946? If so, would you honestly expect Israel to be open to a ceasefire whose end goal is a shift to those borders? Since it appears that you're a fan of quantitative data, you refer to the skewed global perception of which nations believes that the occupations of Israel's are illegitimate (something like all members of the UN deem them illegitimate except for four countries - two of which are Israel and the US), and therefore call for the abolishment of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian zones. Since the UN has 193 member states, with 32 refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of Israel, that leaves 83% feeling that Israel is a legitimate state - surprisingly low, but statistically deeming it a legitimate state. Would agreeing to a ceasefire with this end goal not represent an admission of the illegitimacy of Israel BY Israel, and contradict the whole notion that global consensus should be let to determine the legitimacy of a People, and not a deal which provides ten years of peace for its residents?
Please let me know if I need to re-word that for clarification or if I'm mistaken at any part along the way.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people. israel will never cede any control over the borders, because then they would have to let palestinians in at any border at any time, and they will never allow that.
Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
this will never be allowed to happen. israel will never cede this kind of power to the UN, and the US would never allow that to happen because obama would be mercilessly attacked by republicans who view the UN with outright contempt.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Yeah, the argument seems to be bases on some misunderstanding. I'm not sure what CM's link was intended to say and it leaves a lot of room for uncertainty that way. Maybe some clarification there?
I think we all want peace but nerves fray around this shit.
Unless Israel is looking at a final solution instead.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The wars in the middle east are seemingly unending.
Much of our energy still comes from the middle east.
Our efforts to curb war are either futile or simply add to the fire.
There may not be anything we can do at this point to help the situation.
Might it make more sense for us to start preparing for a post-oil world?
I keep hearing people say Israel is just defending itself. That they aren't just outright murdering Palestinians. And here you have Israelis literally calling for genocide. Calling Arabs second class citizens, animals and to torch them alive.
To say they are just defending themselves doesn't hold water for me anymore. In the words of RR, if they don't like the situation they're living in, perhaps they should just move? May I suggest Florida?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."