US govt secretly collecting data on millions of Verizon user

even flow - question mark · June 2013

One would guess that either: Those boys in Boston didn't use Verizon? Didn't talk on cell phones? Or the US tracking department is inept?

mikepegg44 · June 2013

polaris_x wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

man I hope not,I think all this stuff going on in the obama admin will be remembered as the worst admin in history and all this will cost the American public big time, I said back when obama was running for pres. he would be a big mistake and here we are.

Godfather.

:fp: ... considering the responses you got in the other thread ... have you ever in your entire time on this board ever stopped to consider what some people might be saying to you is true? ...

your continued position to view everything in black and white, right or left, d or r is what makes it soooo easy for this stuff to happen ... this is not a partisan thing ... it hasn't been for some time ... if you spend your days searching on obama is the worst president ever and believing everything written because you want to ... it makes you a sheep ...

ya - i'm about as socialist as it gets on this forum so i don't expect you to listen to me ... but there are others here who are more centrist-right that will tell you exactly the same thing ...

you are completely right, the Obama Administration is no worse than any others on civil liberties. They just use the tools given to them by other incompetent administrations and congress over the last 3 decades. Just the fruits of the ignorant labor the general voting public continues to do for these two political parties.

Jason P · June 2013

hedonist wrote:

And what about other service providers? Why only Verizon?

This just doesn't make sense...why gather "anonymous" information - dates, times, calls made from X to Y - if further steps weren't in place?

My theory:

Boston bombings took place on 4/15.

Government approved obtaining the records on 4/25.

It allows them to trend data to see if other parties were involved. I'm not sure why only Verizon was obtained, but for all we know the other carriers may have seen the same orders.

mikepegg44 · June 2013

Jason P wrote:

hedonist wrote:

And what about other service providers? Why only Verizon?

This just doesn't make sense...why gather "anonymous" information - dates, times, calls made from X to Y - if further steps weren't in place?

My theory:

Boston bombings took place on 4/15.

Government approved obtaining the records on 4/25.

It allows them to trend data to see if other parties were involved. I'm not sure why only Verizon was obtained, but for all we know the other carriers may have seen the same orders.

probably the most likely

JimmyV · June 2013

I am a Verizon customer so my records have apparently been obtained.

Still absorbing the news to be honest but I don't feel violated and I don't think this is as big a deal as it will be made out to be. For a few reasons.

1) I have nothing to hide except one too many late night pizzas.

2) I've never really considered my cell phone to be an entirely secure means of communication because

3) I have always kinda assumed somebody somewhere was listening. Maybe that means I have seen one too many movies but this doesn't really come as a surprise.

unsung · June 2013

Tyranny isn't around the corner, it's already here.

puremagic · June 2013

Forget the media hype – Is anyone watching Congress? Why are we paying them or their staffs to feed us reality-type bull.

--NSA has the authority to collect phone records and listen on calls from any source.
--FBI has the authority to review AP phone records

Congress gave them that authority under FISA. Congress even amended FISA twice in 2008 and 2012.

RustyShackelford · June 2013

unsung wrote:

Tyranny isn't around the corner, it's already here.

This is a correct statement.

RustyShackelford · June 2013

It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.

Jason P · June 2013

It seems that this issue is getting bipartisan support in congress ... so we can add this to the list that includes insider trading and pay raises in which there is bipartisan support from our leaders.

Cosmo · June 2013

This is one of those sticky issues that pits security over liberty. It is not as black and white as a bumper sticker or slogan. It is complicated... the same way the issuse of using torture (waterboarding) to gain information.
On the one hand, by casting a wide net that captures millions upon millions of phone data... cycling the database through filters... you might uncover that conversation that discusses the details of a plot to unleash nerve agents in a crowded mall on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
On the other hand, you are violating the Fourth Amendment of our Constitution that protects us ALL from illegal searches:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Those of us that have nothing to do with plots to murder are getting swept up and lumped in with those who might.
...
If anyone can think of any other arguments, please, comment. It is a dangerous path we are on. What we do defines us as a people.

Bentleyspop · June 2013

Last I checked this sort of thing went on during the Cheney/Rove regime because of the Patriot act

Also...not sure if its been mentioned but the NSA was only given the following bits of info...

The phone number calling
The phone number receiving
Length of call

that's it no more than that

hedonist · June 2013

Cosmo wrote:

This is one of those sticky issues that pits security over liberty. It is not as black and white as a bumper sticker or slogan. It is complicated... the same way the issuse of using torture (waterboarding) to gain information.
On the one hand, by casting a wide net that captures millions upon millions of phone data... cycling the database through filters... you might uncover that conversation that discusses the details of a plot to unleash nerve agents in a crowded mall on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
On the other hand, you are violating the Fourth Amendment of our Constitution that protects us ALL from illegal searches:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Those of us that have nothing to do with plots to murder are getting swept up and lumped in with those who might.
...
If anyone can think of any other arguments, please, comment. It is a dangerous path we are on. What we do defines us as a people.

I agree the sword is double-edged. I wonder if/how this is related to RICO? My understanding is that allows - in certain cases - to listen in on phone calls within limits (hey, I've watched the Sopranos!), whereas this data oversees everything related to the call but the call itself.

Cosmo · June 2013

Bentleyspop wrote:

Last I checked this sort of thing went on during the Cheney/Rove regime because of the Patriot act

Also...not sure if its been mentioned but the NSA was only given the following bits of info...

The phone number calling
The phone number receiving
Length of call

that's it no more than that

...
The Bush/Cheney thing went further because it was wholesale wiretapping, without bench issued warrants.
...
I can understand wanting to track numbers of known suspects to see who they are making contact with... and who those contacts are talking to... it's the sweeping net that I (personally) have issues with.

elvistheking44 · June 2013

RustyShackelford wrote:

It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.

I could care less if the government does this. I have nothing to hide, if they want to snoop at my dirty text messages to my wife or my calls to mom and pop across the country so be it. Sure the tax dollars could be better spent on my kids schools and the streets in my city, but really I have more important things to worry about during my day.......its called life.

hedonist · June 2013

ofthegirl99 wrote:

RustyShackelford wrote:

It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.

I could care less if the government does this. I have nothing to hide, if they want to snoop at my dirty text messages to my wife or my calls to mom and pop across the country so be it. Sure the tax dollars could be better spent on my kids schools and the streets in my city, but really I have more important things to worry about during my day.......its called life.

I too have nothing to hide (well, not MUCH, anyway), but when baby steps sullying the right to privacy are accepted - baby step by baby step - I hope there doesn't come a time when they're fully into our business of living life and we think/say "fucker! Should've done something about this sooner"

Guitar92player · June 2013

Godfather. wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

do you really think it's not happening in your country ?

but i don't live in the greatest country in the world! ... way to keep it partisan tho ... the powers will be happy to know that your erosion of civil liberties will continue to happen with barely a whimper ...

man I hope not,I think all this stuff going on in the obama admin will be remembered as the worst admin in history and all this will cost the American public big time, I said back when obama was running for pres. he would be a big mistake and here we are.

Godfather.

This may be happening during his admin, but this hacking thing is a result of the Patriot Act, started by Bush. It's a shame Obama didn't put an end to this. Shame on him. And shame on Congress who also knew of this.

Cosmo · June 2013

ofthegirl99 wrote:

RustyShackelford wrote:

It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.

I could care less if the government does this. I have nothing to hide, if they want to snoop at my dirty text messages to my wife or my calls to mom and pop across the country so be it. Sure the tax dollars could be better spent on my kids schools and the streets in my city, but really I have more important things to worry about during my day.......its called life.

...
That is the thing about some of us Americans... When it's their guy in the White House, it's called 'Keeping America Safe'. Since it's NOT 'Their Guy' in office, it is called 'Tyranny'.
...
Me... personally... i call it 'Government Over Reach' and a 'Violation of my Fourth Amendment Right' that protects me from my government... regardless of who is in office.

Guitar92player · June 2013

JimmyV wrote:

I am a Verizon customer so my records have apparently been obtained.

Still absorbing the news to be honest but I don't feel violated and I don't think this is as big a deal as it will be made out to be. For a few reasons.

1) I have nothing to hide except one too many late night pizzas.

2) I've never really considered my cell phone to be an entirely secure means of communication because

3) I have always kinda assumed somebody somewhere was listening. Maybe that means I have seen one too many movies but this doesn't really come as a surprise.

By thoughts exactly, but I am still kinda pissed this is what America is coming to. The Patriot Act was the start of all this bullshit.

Speaking of which, I find it funny that many conservatives are pissed that Obama is so corrupt and does bullshit things and allows things like this, but the Patriot Act was okay because Bush did it.

riotgrl · June 2013

hedonist wrote:

ofthegirl99 wrote:

RustyShackelford wrote:

It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.

I could care less if the government does this. I have nothing to hide, if they want to snoop at my dirty text messages to my wife or my calls to mom and pop across the country so be it. Sure the tax dollars could be better spent on my kids schools and the streets in my city, but really I have more important things to worry about during my day.......its called life.

I too have nothing to hide (well, not MUCH, anyway), but when baby steps sullying the right to privacy are accepted - baby step by baby step - I hope there doesn't come a time when they're fully into our business of living life and we think/say "fucker! Should've done something about this sooner"

Well said, hedonist. This baby stepping our way to tyranny (or I like the way Cosmo said "overreaching" by our government) has got to stop. But when people say they aren't doing anything wrong so whats the big deal then I get really worried about what steps will be taken next to infringe on our civil liberties.

My understanding, from the limited information I got this morning, was that this is a direct result of the Patriot Act and that they were collecting quite a bit of data not just names and numbers. Also, I understood this to be a 'renewal' of previous authorizations to collect cell phone data which, if true, is even more worrying because it has been happening for a very long time. How this doesn't scare some of you to death is beyond me!

US govt secretly collecting data on millions of Verizon user

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