US govt secretly collecting data on millions of Verizon user

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Comments

  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    republican in office....democrat in office.

    not sure how much more evidence people need to realize they're all the fucking same.
    Huh. I read that as "they're all fucking the same".

    Both fit.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    unsung wrote:

    "...on this issue"


    Yeah, the issue of being for the people.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    hedonist wrote:
    And what about other service providers? Why only Verizon?

    This just doesn't make sense...why gather "anonymous" information - dates, times, calls made from X to Y - if further steps weren't in place?

    viewtopic.php?f=13&t=207751#p5036373
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 48,908
    unsung wrote:

    The New York Times Quietly Softened Its Scathing Obama Editorial

    http://gawker.com/the-new-york-times-qu ... -511791553

    ....the new york times :lol:
    www.myspace.com
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Oh Oh

    So the government will know who I ordered my pizza from last week?

    :P

    No, the government will intercept private telephone conversations between individuals they deem to be a threat (independently of any due process, or warrants - see the case of Dr. Sami Al-Arian: http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/03/03/ ... -al-arian/), classify the information they obtain as 'secret evidence' - meaning it needn't be disclosed in a court of law, and imprison U.S citizens indefinitely without charge or trial, on the grounds of 'Providing material support for terrorism', which includes offering “training,” “expert advice or assistance,” “service,” and “personnel.” I.e, anybody who says something they don't like involving any group the government decide is a terrorist organization, such as Hamas, the Kurdistan Workers' Party, and the governments of Cuba, and Iran, then they can be seized and carted off abroad under the terms of 'extraordinary rendition', and tortured, and imprisoned indefinitely without trial.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
    According to the former CIA case officer Bob Baer, "If you want a serious interrogation, you send a prisoner to Jordan. If you want them to be tortured, you send them to Syria. If you want someone to disappear—never to see them again—you send them to Egypt."

    According to a 4 December 2005 article in The Washington Post by Dana Priest:

    "Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema and sleeping drugs. They outfit detainees in a diaper and jumpsuit for what can be a day-long trip. Their destinations: either a detention facility operated by cooperative countries in the Middle East and Central Asia, including Afghanistan, or one of the CIA's own covert prisons—referred to in classified documents as "black sites," which at various times have been operated in eight countries, including several in Eastern Europe."


    Not that I doubt you'll have anything to worry about. Just as most German citizens in the 1930's had nothing to worry about. But not everyone's so fortunate: http://www.salon.com/2012/04/16/persona ... es_abuses/





    Enjoy your pizza.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    And it just gets better and better:


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... s-nsa-data

    NSA taps in to internet giants' systems to mine user data, secret files reveal

    • Top secret PRISM program claims direct access to servers of firms including Google, Facebook and Apple
    • Companies deny any knowledge of program in operation since 2007



    Glenn Greenwald and Ewen MacAskill
    The Guardian, Thursday 6 June 2013



    The National Security Agency has obtained direct access to the systems of Google, Facebook, Apple and other US internet giants, according to a top secret document obtained by the Guardian.

    The NSA access is part of a previously undisclosed program called PRISM, which allows officials to collect material including search history, the content of emails, file transfers and live chats, the document says.

    The Guardian has verified the authenticity of the document, a 41-slide PowerPoint presentation – classified as top secret with no distribution to foreign allies – which was apparently used to train intelligence operatives on the capabilities of the program. The document claims "collection directly from the servers" of major US service providers.

    Although the presentation claims the program is run with the assistance of the companies, all those who responded to a Guardian request for comment on Thursday denied knowledge of any such program...
  • Seems some people who have no problem with this happening as they have nothing to hide would have no problem with Jim down the street who thinks his wife is fooling around on him, looking in his neighbours windows to see if that is the house she is at. Don't think it is the same thing? The only thing different is Jim is not the government.

    The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08

  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Now that we know the US government is monitoring all electronic data, everyone should watch this YouTube video of a "mind reader".

    Random people come in to get their mind's read and are blown away by how much this guy knows ... then they reveal that there are four guys behind a curtain on the internet doing searches on the marks.

    The video was a PA to let everyone be aware of how much of their life is online.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7pYHN9iC9I
  • riotgrlriotgrl Posts: 1,895
    Jason P wrote:
    Now that we know the US government is monitoring all electronic data, everyone should watch this YouTube video of a "mind reader".

    Random people come in to get their mind's read and are blown away by how much this guy knows ... then they reveal that there are four guys behind a curtain on the internet doing searches on the marks.

    The video was a PA to let everyone be aware of how much of their life is online.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7pYHN9iC9I


    Makes me want to log off forever. But then I think about how difficult it would be to extricate myself from some things, like my bank account.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    JimmyV wrote:
    Are my cell phone records being kept private really a civil liberty? I'm not so sure. My life is no different because the NSA has access to these records. I am no less free to do the things I want to do. This sounds like a scary issue on face but the more I think about it the less scary it is.

    It isn't about assumed privacy. There is certainly no right to privacy explicitly guaranteed in the constitution. It is certainly implied by the 4th and 5th that our possible invasions of privacy will be given due process and protection from gov't agencies. (4th and 5th). The 4th amendment is a prime example of giving an inch to the gov't and they slowly but surely take that mile. Started in the mid 20th century and has slowly eroded to almost non-existent today.

    Why is it, and I am not including you Jimmy in this because you are pretty consistent in your positions, that there are some who staunchly defend the 2nd amendment and call themselves defenders of the constitution are pretty much silent or ok with the assault that takes place daily on the 4th and 5th? those same constitutional defenders supported the Patriot Act. Those same constitutional defenders say things like, I don't care if the gov't does this, I have nothing to hide. Amazing what happens when the rights supposedly being violated belong to your neighbor and not yourself.

    These stories will die out as quickly as they erupted and most won't give a god damn. The hardest part about being principled in your arguments is when you are faced with situations that may benefit what you perceive as a negative. Far too often those on the right are not consistent. They muddy the waters with exceptions to each principle they want everyone else to follow.

    Tough on crime, forced collection of DNA when not found guilty of anything, keeping marijuana illegal, patriot act provisions that allow actions like the NSA took...all things the right continues to be all over the map on. The same principles that guide wanting the gov't out of your life applies to ALL things private...including drug use and gay marriage. Fucking hypocrites drive me bonkers.

    /rant
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,529
    chadwick wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    wanna take your country back?

    stop

    stop everything & go on strike by the country size

    i've always daydreamed about shutting down tobacco companies. every single person stops smoking & chewing. in one day they will be screwed. focus is our friend as is unity & strength & intelligence

    throw phones in the trash. 30 days with no phone calls would be hysterical. don't buy the milk full of preservative & steroids


    Everyone opt out of paying taxes until April 15. Don't give them a constant stream of spending money.
    everyone would quit working for a few weeks or months rebooting the system

    wow really. if everyone quit working for a few weeks or months the world economy would be destroyed and you would literally be back in the dark ages. pure lunacy.
  • Go BeaversGo Beavers Posts: 9,096
    No one should be surprised by this, since it was outlined in Patriot Act a long time ago. I'm sure most of us can remember 11 or so years ago that if you questioned anything done under the guise of increasing security, you were a terrorist sympathizer. Now the same proud Americans are upset that their rights are infringed upon. Maybe they thought this would only be used against the dark skinned people?

    Who's the dick who named it the 'Patriot Act' anyway?
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Byrnzie wrote:
    hedonist wrote:
    And what about other service providers? Why only Verizon?

    This just doesn't make sense...why gather "anonymous" information - dates, times, calls made from X to Y - if further steps weren't in place?

    viewtopic.php?f=13&t=207751#p5036373
    Yup. Free (or feeling free) in some senses; others, not so much.

    I love how the head of the NSA straight up lied about this, too.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    "No more illegal wiretapping of American citizens, no more ignoring the law when it is an inconvenience, this administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not. There are no shortcuts to protecting America."

    ----Barack Obama 2007
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Go Beavers wrote:
    Who's the dick who named it the 'Patriot Act' anyway?

    Uniting and Stregnthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required (to) Intercept (and) Obstruct Terrorism act

    148123517.jpg?w=400&h=300

    Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Wisc

    Just about exactly what I would have thought he would look like.

    Hated it then, hate it more now after constant re-ups and re-authorizations by those who complain about gov't intrusion loudly. Expansion of the ideology that created the Patriot act into other acts and policies is going to greatly change this country in the next 30 years even more than the last 10-12 have. Makes me sad to think about.

    But hey, if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about right?
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,529
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    Go Beavers wrote:
    Who's the dick who named it the 'Patriot Act' anyway?

    Uniting and Stregnthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required (to) Intercept (and) Obstruct Terrorism act

    148123517.jpg?w=400&h=300

    Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Wisc

    Just about exactly what I would have thought he would look like.

    Hated it then, hate it more now after constant re-ups and re-authorizations by those who complain about gov't intrusion loudly. Expansion of the ideology that created the Patriot act into other acts and policies is going to greatly change this country in the next 30 years even more than the last 10-12 have. Makes me sad to think about.

    But hey, if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about right?

    not defending what the gov't is doing here but can you give me one instance where your life on a daily basis is different today because of the Patriot Act than it was 10-12 years ago? the fact is for 99.99% of the US population it hasn't changed shit about their daily lives. so the government got my Verizon records, guess what some douche at Verizon already had access to them before the NSA did.
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    pjhawks wrote:

    not defending what the gov't is doing here but can you give me one instance where your life on a daily basis is different today because of the Patriot Act than it was 10-12 years ago? the fact is for 99.99% of the US population it hasn't changed shit about their daily lives. so the government got my Verizon records, guess what some douche at Verizon already had access to them before the NSA did.

    Every American is affected by this in one way or another. Am I in jail, no. But other Americans have had their lives affected by it. Other people around the world have had their lives affected by it. Do you think they are all terrorists?

    I guess I could simply look at it and say these actions are a collective effort to keep you safe. I guess when you specifically have your freedom taken away because you talked to someone for years who ended up not being who they portrayed themselves to be then we can complain?

    Stop and Frisk in New York City is a direct result of this 'patriot act' line of thinking. Have I been frisked, no, have other innocent citizens, absolutely. Swallowing the patriot act because it has not directly affected the majority of Americans is going to just make the next poison pill that much easier to swallow. It isn't about me, it is about a great country turning on itself because some extremists are dangerous. I don't want that.

    As I have said many times, when you allow a 'little', they will keep taking more in 'little' increments so that it always feel like it is simply just a little intrusion.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    148123517.jpg?w=400&h=300

    Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner, R-Wisc
    He looks like the Big Lebowski.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    unsung wrote:
    "No more illegal wiretapping of American citizens, no more ignoring the law when it is an inconvenience, this administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not. There are no shortcuts to protecting America."

    ----Barack Obama 2007
    Things become different when you are handed the big stick and have to deal with reality.
  • mikepegg44mikepegg44 Posts: 3,353
    Jason P wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    "No more illegal wiretapping of American citizens, no more ignoring the law when it is an inconvenience, this administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not. There are no shortcuts to protecting America."

    ----Barack Obama 2007
    Things become different when you are handed the big stick and have to deal with reality.


    is it that or is it that people are handed the big stick and don't want to give it up so they lose some of their principles in place of what will get them re-elected?
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,840
    Oh, Obama's comments are going to be fun

    Paging Unsung, Unsung...
  • Cliffy6745Cliffy6745 Posts: 33,840
    edited June 2013
    unsung wrote:
    Cliffy6745 wrote:
    unsung wrote:

    "...on this issue"


    Yeah, the issue of being for the people.

    Or that wasn't the context at all

    It's almost as if you are a character
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,529
    mikepegg44 wrote:
    pjhawks wrote:

    not defending what the gov't is doing here but can you give me one instance where your life on a daily basis is different today because of the Patriot Act than it was 10-12 years ago? the fact is for 99.99% of the US population it hasn't changed shit about their daily lives. so the government got my Verizon records, guess what some douche at Verizon already had access to them before the NSA did.

    Every American is affected by this in one way or another. Am I in jail, no. But other Americans have had their lives affected by it. Other people around the world have had their lives affected by it. Do you think they are all terrorists?

    I guess I could simply look at it and say these actions are a collective effort to keep you safe. I guess when you specifically have your freedom taken away because you talked to someone for years who ended up not being who they portrayed themselves to be then we can complain?

    Stop and Frisk in New York City is a direct result of this 'patriot act' line of thinking. Have I been frisked, no, have other innocent citizens, absolutely. Swallowing the patriot act because it has not directly affected the majority of Americans is going to just make the next poison pill that much easier to swallow. It isn't about me, it is about a great country turning on itself because some extremists are dangerous. I don't want that.

    As I have said many times, when you allow a 'little', they will keep taking more in 'little' increments so that it always feel like it is simply just a little intrusion.

    so since you didn't give me one instance where your life has been affected i'll take that as a no.

    and stop and frisk in NYC has worked.

    sometimes the safety and freedom of the millions has to take precedence over the safety and freedoms of a few. policing isn't always pretty, but it's better than bitching after the fact when the policing wasn't done.

    why do I suspect that many that openly complain about some of the tactics that have come out in the past few days are also the same who complain when we don't do enough like not keeping tabs on the Boston Bombers even after the Russians gave us the information, Benghazi and 9/11?
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    pjhawks wrote:
    so since you didn't give me one instance where your life has been affected i'll take that as a no.

    and stop and frisk in NYC has worked.

    sometimes the safety and freedom of the millions has to take precedence over the safety and freedoms of a few. policing isn't always pretty, but it's better than bitching after the fact when the policing wasn't done.

    why do I suspect that many that openly complain about some of the tactics that have come out in the past few days are also the same who complain when we don't do enough like not keeping tabs on the Boston Bombers even after the Russians gave us the information, Benghazi and 9/11?
    ...
    This is the reality of where we are today... do we compromise our liberties in order to provide security, or do we grant our liberties to those who wish to do harm?
    It is not an easy issue to address.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • riotgrlriotgrl Posts: 1,895
    Wake up people. It may not be a big deal today but it will be when we keep excusing away today's 'no big deal' in the name of safety and security.

    Our lives have changed whether we agree or acknowledge it. I have known my stockbroker for 15 years. Worked with him, on a daily basis as the only two people in this office for 5 years, he personally knows me, my parents, my in-laws, and my kids. Yet every single time I go to his office to change my investments, I have to show him proof of identification because of the provisions within the Patriot Act. I suppose that is to keep him/me safe and secure from terrorism?? Does it hurt me when I do it? No, but I don't feel it is necessary when there is an established personal and professional relationship. What's next? And will we excuse that away? What happens when the government infringes on some civil liberty/right/belief that you disagree with? Will you continue to say its no big deal?
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    riotgrl wrote:
    Wake up people. It may not be a big deal today but it will be when we keep excusing away today's 'no big deal' in the name of safety and security.

    What's next? And will we excuse that away? What happens when the government infringes on some civil liberty/right/belief that you disagree with? Will you continue to say its no big deal?

    :clap:

    to me, this just shows how narcissistic people have become..."as long as it doesn't affect me, who cares" until it does affect them
  • pjhawkspjhawks Posts: 12,529
    riotgrl wrote:
    Wake up people. It may not be a big deal today but it will be when we keep excusing away today's 'no big deal' in the name of safety and security.

    Our lives have changed whether we agree or acknowledge it. I have known my stockbroker for 15 years. Worked with him, on a daily basis as the only two people in this office for 5 years, he personally knows me, my parents, my in-laws, and my kids. Yet every single time I go to his office to change my investments, I have to show him proof of identification because of the provisions within the Patriot Act. I suppose that is to keep him/me safe and secure from terrorism?? Does it hurt me when I do it? No, but I don't feel it is necessary when there is an established personal and professional relationship. What's next? And will we excuse that away? What happens when the government infringes on some civil liberty/right/belief that you disagree with? Will you continue to say its no big deal?

    you can say that about any rule ever put into place. I guess we should live in a world with no rules or laws then. :fp:

    I wonder if people complained about their civil liberties back in the day when we started requiring people to take driving tests and to get picture licenses. and forget about putting in stop signs and stop lights. the horror. I mean why should I have to stop for others? you are taking away my civil liberties.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Citizens should never give up liberties. We have the Constitution for a reason.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    riotgrl wrote:
    Wake up people. It may not be a big deal today but it will be when we keep excusing away today's 'no big deal' in the name of safety and security.

    Our lives have changed whether we agree or acknowledge it. I have known my stockbroker for 15 years. Worked with him, on a daily basis as the only two people in this office for 5 years, he personally knows me, my parents, my in-laws, and my kids. Yet every single time I go to his office to change my investments, I have to show him proof of identification because of the provisions within the Patriot Act. I suppose that is to keep him/me safe and secure from terrorism?? Does it hurt me when I do it? No, but I don't feel it is necessary when there is an established personal and professional relationship. What's next? And will we excuse that away? What happens when the government infringes on some civil liberty/right/belief that you disagree with? Will you continue to say its no big deal?
    ...
    I know... it is a big deal.
    The thing we need to understand is that there are public and private spaces. We are losing or have already lost so-called 'privacy' the minute we step out our door. There are cameras everywhere that capture our images and there are face recognition techniques that can identify us.
    The same thing goes to the use of cellular devices. A cell phone is basically a walkie-talkie that trasmits and receives an encrypted radio signal... it is not the same as hardened landline phone that requires a wiretap.
    So, when you use your cell phone, you are broadcasting out radio signals across the open airwaves. Those signals are open for intercept. That is how the government is able to cheat the system... without cheating the system because a cell phone is not a phone... it is a radio.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    unsung wrote:
    Citizens should never give up liberties. We have the Constitution for a reason.
    ...
    The Constitution never factored in technology. Our founding fathers never envisioned cellular technology or .50 caliber sniper rifles. They left those thing intentionally vague because they knew that things will change in the future. That is the sheer genius of our Constitution... it can adapt to change.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
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