This is one of those sticky issues that pits security over liberty. It is not as black and white as a bumper sticker or slogan. It is complicated... the same way the issuse of using torture (waterboarding) to gain information.
On the one hand, by casting a wide net that captures millions upon millions of phone data... cycling the database through filters... you might uncover that conversation that discusses the details of a plot to unleash nerve agents in a crowded mall on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
On the other hand, you are violating the Fourth Amendment of our Constitution that protects us ALL from illegal searches:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Those of us that have nothing to do with plots to murder are getting swept up and lumped in with those who might.
...
If anyone can think of any other arguments, please, comment. It is a dangerous path we are on. What we do defines us as a people.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
This is one of those sticky issues that pits security over liberty. It is not as black and white as a bumper sticker or slogan. It is complicated... the same way the issuse of using torture (waterboarding) to gain information.
On the one hand, by casting a wide net that captures millions upon millions of phone data... cycling the database through filters... you might uncover that conversation that discusses the details of a plot to unleash nerve agents in a crowded mall on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
On the other hand, you are violating the Fourth Amendment of our Constitution that protects us ALL from illegal searches:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Those of us that have nothing to do with plots to murder are getting swept up and lumped in with those who might.
...
If anyone can think of any other arguments, please, comment. It is a dangerous path we are on. What we do defines us as a people.
I agree the sword is double-edged. I wonder if/how this is related to RICO? My understanding is that allows - in certain cases - to listen in on phone calls within limits (hey, I've watched the Sopranos!), whereas this data oversees everything related to the call but the call itself.
Last I checked this sort of thing went on during the Cheney/Rove regime because of the Patriot act
Also...not sure if its been mentioned but the NSA was only given the following bits of info...
The phone number calling
The phone number receiving
Length of call
that's it no more than that
...
The Bush/Cheney thing went further because it was wholesale wiretapping, without bench issued warrants.
...
I can understand wanting to track numbers of known suspects to see who they are making contact with... and who those contacts are talking to... it's the sweeping net that I (personally) have issues with.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.
I could care less if the government does this. I have nothing to hide, if they want to snoop at my dirty text messages to my wife or my calls to mom and pop across the country so be it. Sure the tax dollars could be better spent on my kids schools and the streets in my city, but really I have more important things to worry about during my day.......its called life.
It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.
I could care less if the government does this. I have nothing to hide, if they want to snoop at my dirty text messages to my wife or my calls to mom and pop across the country so be it. Sure the tax dollars could be better spent on my kids schools and the streets in my city, but really I have more important things to worry about during my day.......its called life.
I too have nothing to hide (well, not MUCH, anyway), but when baby steps sullying the right to privacy are accepted - baby step by baby step - I hope there doesn't come a time when they're fully into our business of living life and we think/say "fucker! Should've done something about this sooner"
do you really think it's not happening in your country ?
but i don't live in the greatest country in the world! ... way to keep it partisan tho ... the powers will be happy to know that your erosion of civil liberties will continue to happen with barely a whimper ...
man I hope not,I think all this stuff going on in the obama admin will be remembered as the worst admin in history and all this will cost the American public big time, I said back when obama was running for pres. he would be a big mistake and here we are.
Godfather.
This may be happening during his admin, but this hacking thing is a result of the Patriot Act, started by Bush. It's a shame Obama didn't put an end to this. Shame on him. And shame on Congress who also knew of this.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.
I could care less if the government does this. I have nothing to hide, if they want to snoop at my dirty text messages to my wife or my calls to mom and pop across the country so be it. Sure the tax dollars could be better spent on my kids schools and the streets in my city, but really I have more important things to worry about during my day.......its called life.
...
That is the thing about some of us Americans... When it's their guy in the White House, it's called 'Keeping America Safe'. Since it's NOT 'Their Guy' in office, it is called 'Tyranny'.
...
Me... personally... i call it 'Government Over Reach' and a 'Violation of my Fourth Amendment Right' that protects me from my government... regardless of who is in office.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I am a Verizon customer so my records have apparently been obtained.
Still absorbing the news to be honest but I don't feel violated and I don't think this is as big a deal as it will be made out to be. For a few reasons.
1) I have nothing to hide except one too many late night pizzas.
2) I've never really considered my cell phone to be an entirely secure means of communication because
3) I have always kinda assumed somebody somewhere was listening. Maybe that means I have seen one too many movies but this doesn't really come as a surprise.
By thoughts exactly, but I am still kinda pissed this is what America is coming to. The Patriot Act was the start of all this bullshit.
Speaking of which, I find it funny that many conservatives are pissed that Obama is so corrupt and does bullshit things and allows things like this, but the Patriot Act was okay because Bush did it.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
It sickens me to read that people don't care if their government does this to them.
I could care less if the government does this. I have nothing to hide, if they want to snoop at my dirty text messages to my wife or my calls to mom and pop across the country so be it. Sure the tax dollars could be better spent on my kids schools and the streets in my city, but really I have more important things to worry about during my day.......its called life.
I too have nothing to hide (well, not MUCH, anyway), but when baby steps sullying the right to privacy are accepted - baby step by baby step - I hope there doesn't come a time when they're fully into our business of living life and we think/say "fucker! Should've done something about this sooner"
Well said, hedonist. This baby stepping our way to tyranny (or I like the way Cosmo said "overreaching" by our government) has got to stop. But when people say they aren't doing anything wrong so whats the big deal then I get really worried about what steps will be taken next to infringe on our civil liberties.
My understanding, from the limited information I got this morning, was that this is a direct result of the Patriot Act and that they were collecting quite a bit of data not just names and numbers. Also, I understood this to be a 'renewal' of previous authorizations to collect cell phone data which, if true, is even more worrying because it has been happening for a very long time. How this doesn't scare some of you to death is beyond me!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Last I checked this sort of thing went on during the Cheney/Rove regime because of the Patriot act
Also...not sure if its been mentioned but the NSA was only given the following bits of info...
The phone number calling
The phone number receiving
Length of call
that's it no more than that
oh well if that is all then go ahead and just steal my phone bill every month. Think they mind paying it?
people seem to dismiss all those claiming civil liberties being mistreated because their guy is the one in charge, but without people and organizations willing to fight that fight, our rights would look a lot different today. The gov't won't police itself.
what's next, google being forced to turn over user data without a warrant?
It is weird, I suddenly started feeling safer at the end of April for some reason, now I guess we all know why...
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
My understanding, from the limited information I got this morning, was that this is a direct result of the Patriot Act and that they were collecting quite a bit of data not just names and numbers. Also, I understood this to be a 'renewal' of previous authorizations to collect cell phone data which, if true, is even more worrying because it has been happening for a very long time. How this doesn't scare some of you to death is beyond me!
What you said right here is what people need to realize. This is something that has been done since the Patriot Act, so people need to stop blaming the Obama administration when this is a whole government controversy that has gone though two administrations. It's ridiculous.
I get why they are doing it, to stop future attacks, but its too shady.
In my opinion, as sad as this is to say, with how the world is changing technologically, its these kind of things that pretty much keep us safe, but sadly its at the cost of our liberties. I am not saying this is a great thing, but it seems like this is the only thing they can do. Fight technology with technology.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
That's why i end all my convos witha big Fuck off big brother ....
I could care less go ahead and listen to all my calls i'm a small fish in a really big pond , Tyranny someone said Tyranny
...
The only possible issue i can see popping up... someone you know is doing something illegal that you are completely unaware of. But, because either you call them or they call you and you talk about hockey or the new 'Queens Of The Stone Age' record... your number gets captured and you are flagged as 'an associate' in their database 'known suspects'. They might dispatch an agent to your home and talk to you and you will be cleared... but, that does not mean you are deleted from the database.
You might have an issue with that... like I would.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
some of the responses in this thread are chilling...some of y'all should check out what's going on in turkey and then decide if it's ok to have your constitutional rights violated
This may be happening during his admin, but this hacking thing is a result of the Patriot Act, started by Bush. It's a shame Obama didn't put an end to this. Shame on him. And shame on Congress who also knew of this.
a government by the people for the people...I'm really just sickened by all the thing's that started during one admin and just keeps going from admin to admin,this is what(one thing) makes me have little trust in any polition, we were told this was to track terrorist in the beginning and now/then it's an infringment of American privacy and rights.
The Government Can Use Phone Metadata To Predict Exactly Where You'll Be In 24 Hours
Do you now where you'll be in 24 hours? Because now the NSA does, to within a 20-yard radius.
The White House did its best to downplay The Guardian's bombshell report on widespread phone record collection by the National Security Agency (NSA).
A senior administration official told the AP that information  collected includes phone numbers, location data, and call times, but not the contents of any phone conversation.
That claim is dubious, considering previous reports by AT&T whistleblower Mark Klein and NSA whistleblowers William Binney and Thomas Drake that the NSA gathered virtually all electronic records and communications.
Even limited to "telephony data," however, the NSA would be able to profile anyone in America with incredible depth.
A person who knows all of another's travels can deduce whether he is a weekly churchgoer, a heavy drinker, a regular at the gym, an unfaithful husband, an outpatient receiving medical treatment, an associate of particular individuals or political groups," it read, "and not just one such fact about a person, but all such facts.
That's why i end all my convos witha big Fuck off big brother ....
I could care less go ahead and listen to all my calls i'm a small fish in a really big pond , Tyranny someone said Tyranny
...
The only possible issue i can see popping up... someone you know is doing something illegal that you are completely unaware of. But, because either you call them or they call you and you talk about hockey or the new 'Queens Of The Stone Age' record... your number gets captured and you are flagged as 'an associate' in their database 'known suspects'. They might dispatch an agent to your home and talk to you and you will be cleared... but, that does not mean you are deleted from the database.
You might have an issue with that... like I would.
I hear you loud & clear i'm just in a sarcastic thursday mood and yes it does bother me all the intrusions on our privacy being shot to hell but i'm afraid it will only get worse going forward ...
My understanding, from the limited information I got this morning, was that this is a direct result of the Patriot Act and that they were collecting quite a bit of data not just names and numbers. Also, I understood this to be a 'renewal' of previous authorizations to collect cell phone data which, if true, is even more worrying because it has been happening for a very long time. How this doesn't scare some of you to death is beyond me!
What you said right here is what people need to realize. This is something that has been done since the Patriot Act, so people need to stop blaming the Obama administration when this is a whole government controversy that has gone though two administrations. It's ridiculous.
I get why they are doing it, to stop future attacks, but its too shady.
In my opinion, as sad as this is to say, with how the world is changing technologically, its these kind of things that pretty much keep us safe, but sadly its at the cost of our liberties. I am not saying this is a great thing, but it seems like this is the only thing they can do. Fight technology with technology.
...
The thing I don't like is the whole thing about grabbing everything in case there is something bad in there. Who's to say they will only look for 'terrorists'? The data collected will stay collected.
And the only thing I can say about not caring if they watch me because I'm not doing anything wrong... they can watch me... as long as they get a warrant to do so.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
That's why i end all my convos witha big Fuck off big brother ....
I could care less go ahead and listen to all my calls i'm a small fish in a really big pond , Tyranny someone said Tyranny
Not funny but I do it anyway.....Sometimes when speaking with my parents I will randomly throw out 'key phrases' because I KNOW they are listening. Kinda like my own fuck you to these assholes that are listening to shit they have NO RIGHT to listen too! I'm talking to my parents for christ sakes!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
My understanding, from the limited information I got this morning, was that this is a direct result of the Patriot Act and that they were collecting quite a bit of data not just names and numbers. Also, I understood this to be a 'renewal' of previous authorizations to collect cell phone data which, if true, is even more worrying because it has been happening for a very long time. How this doesn't scare some of you to death is beyond me!
What you said right here is what people need to realize. This is something that has been done since the Patriot Act, so people need to stop blaming the Obama administration when this is a whole government controversy that has gone though two administrations. It's ridiculous.
I get why they are doing it, to stop future attacks, but its too shady.
In my opinion, as sad as this is to say, with how the world is changing technologically, its these kind of things that pretty much keep us safe, but sadly its at the cost of our liberties. I am not saying this is a great thing, but it seems like this is the only thing they can do. Fight technology with technology.
... The thing I don't like is the whole thing about grabbing everything in case there is something bad in there. Who's to say they will only look for 'terrorists'? The data collected will stay collected.
And the only thing I can say about not caring if they watch me because I'm not doing anything wrong... they can watch me... as long as they get a warrant to do so.
That is exactly what scares me about this. When did we become so complacent about our own lives? I feel fucked....and not in a good way :evil:
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
stop everything & go on strike by the country size
i've always daydreamed about shutting down tobacco companies. every single person stops smoking & chewing. in one day they will be screwed. focus is our friend as is unity & strength & intelligence
throw phones in the trash. 30 days with no phone calls would be hysterical. don't buy the milk full of preservative & steroids
stop everything & go on strike by the country size
i've always daydreamed about shutting down tobacco companies. every single person stops smoking & chewing. in one day they will be screwed. focus is our friend as is unity & strength & intelligence
throw phones in the trash. 30 days with no phone calls would be hysterical. don't buy the milk full of preservative & steroids
Everyone opt out of paying taxes until April 15. Don't give them a constant stream of spending money.
stop everything & go on strike by the country size
i've always daydreamed about shutting down tobacco companies. every single person stops smoking & chewing. in one day they will be screwed. focus is our friend as is unity & strength & intelligence
throw phones in the trash. 30 days with no phone calls would be hysterical. don't buy the milk full of preservative & steroids
Everyone opt out of paying taxes until April 15. Don't give them a constant stream of spending money.
everyone would quit working for a few weeks or months rebooting the system
Are my cell phone records being kept private really a civil liberty? I'm not so sure. My life is no different because the NSA has access to these records. I am no less free to do the things I want to do. This sounds like a scary issue on face but the more I think about it the less scary it is.
Comments
On the one hand, by casting a wide net that captures millions upon millions of phone data... cycling the database through filters... you might uncover that conversation that discusses the details of a plot to unleash nerve agents in a crowded mall on the Friday after Thanksgiving.
On the other hand, you are violating the Fourth Amendment of our Constitution that protects us ALL from illegal searches:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Those of us that have nothing to do with plots to murder are getting swept up and lumped in with those who might.
...
If anyone can think of any other arguments, please, comment. It is a dangerous path we are on. What we do defines us as a people.
Hail, Hail!!!
Also...not sure if its been mentioned but the NSA was only given the following bits of info...
The phone number calling
The phone number receiving
Length of call
that's it no more than that
The Bush/Cheney thing went further because it was wholesale wiretapping, without bench issued warrants.
...
I can understand wanting to track numbers of known suspects to see who they are making contact with... and who those contacts are talking to... it's the sweeping net that I (personally) have issues with.
Hail, Hail!!!
This may be happening during his admin, but this hacking thing is a result of the Patriot Act, started by Bush. It's a shame Obama didn't put an end to this. Shame on him. And shame on Congress who also knew of this.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
That is the thing about some of us Americans... When it's their guy in the White House, it's called 'Keeping America Safe'. Since it's NOT 'Their Guy' in office, it is called 'Tyranny'.
...
Me... personally... i call it 'Government Over Reach' and a 'Violation of my Fourth Amendment Right' that protects me from my government... regardless of who is in office.
Hail, Hail!!!
By thoughts exactly, but I am still kinda pissed this is what America is coming to. The Patriot Act was the start of all this bullshit.
Speaking of which, I find it funny that many conservatives are pissed that Obama is so corrupt and does bullshit things and allows things like this, but the Patriot Act was okay because Bush did it.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Well said, hedonist. This baby stepping our way to tyranny (or I like the way Cosmo said "overreaching" by our government) has got to stop. But when people say they aren't doing anything wrong so whats the big deal then I get really worried about what steps will be taken next to infringe on our civil liberties.
My understanding, from the limited information I got this morning, was that this is a direct result of the Patriot Act and that they were collecting quite a bit of data not just names and numbers. Also, I understood this to be a 'renewal' of previous authorizations to collect cell phone data which, if true, is even more worrying because it has been happening for a very long time. How this doesn't scare some of you to death is beyond me!
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I could care less go ahead and listen to all my calls i'm a small fish in a really big pond , Tyranny someone said Tyranny
oh well if that is all then go ahead and just steal my phone bill every month. Think they mind paying it?
people seem to dismiss all those claiming civil liberties being mistreated because their guy is the one in charge, but without people and organizations willing to fight that fight, our rights would look a lot different today. The gov't won't police itself.
what's next, google being forced to turn over user data without a warrant?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57587003-38/judge-orders-google-to-comply-with-fbis-secret-nsl-demands/
oh shit that's right...
It is weird, I suddenly started feeling safer at the end of April for some reason, now I guess we all know why...
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
What you said right here is what people need to realize. This is something that has been done since the Patriot Act, so people need to stop blaming the Obama administration when this is a whole government controversy that has gone though two administrations. It's ridiculous.
I get why they are doing it, to stop future attacks, but its too shady.
In my opinion, as sad as this is to say, with how the world is changing technologically, its these kind of things that pretty much keep us safe, but sadly its at the cost of our liberties. I am not saying this is a great thing, but it seems like this is the only thing they can do. Fight technology with technology.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
The only possible issue i can see popping up... someone you know is doing something illegal that you are completely unaware of. But, because either you call them or they call you and you talk about hockey or the new 'Queens Of The Stone Age' record... your number gets captured and you are flagged as 'an associate' in their database 'known suspects'. They might dispatch an agent to your home and talk to you and you will be cleared... but, that does not mean you are deleted from the database.
You might have an issue with that... like I would.
Hail, Hail!!!
a government by the people for the people...I'm really just sickened by all the thing's that started during one admin and just keeps going from admin to admin,this is what(one thing) makes me have little trust in any polition, we were told this was to track terrorist in the beginning and now/then it's an infringment of American privacy and rights.
Godfather.
Do you now where you'll be in 24 hours? Because now the NSA does, to within a 20-yard radius.
The White House did its best to downplay The Guardian's bombshell report on widespread phone record collection by the National Security Agency (NSA).
A senior administration official told the AP that information  collected includes phone numbers, location data, and call times, but not the contents of any phone conversation.
That claim is dubious, considering previous reports by AT&T whistleblower Mark Klein and NSA whistleblowers William Binney and Thomas Drake that the NSA gathered virtually all electronic records and communications.
Even limited to "telephony data," however, the NSA would be able to profile anyone in America with incredible depth.
A person who knows all of another's travels can deduce whether he is a weekly churchgoer, a heavy drinker, a regular at the gym, an unfaithful husband, an outpatient receiving medical treatment, an associate of particular individuals or political groups," it read, "and not just one such fact about a person, but all such facts.
....
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-nsa ... z2VTJGUzhK
:?
I hear you loud & clear i'm just in a sarcastic thursday mood and yes it does bother me all the intrusions on our privacy being shot to hell but i'm afraid it will only get worse going forward ...
:eh:
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
The thing I don't like is the whole thing about grabbing everything in case there is something bad in there. Who's to say they will only look for 'terrorists'? The data collected will stay collected.
And the only thing I can say about not caring if they watch me because I'm not doing anything wrong... they can watch me... as long as they get a warrant to do so.
Hail, Hail!!!
Not funny but I do it anyway.....Sometimes when speaking with my parents I will randomly throw out 'key phrases' because I KNOW they are listening. Kinda like my own fuck you to these assholes that are listening to shit they have NO RIGHT to listen too! I'm talking to my parents for christ sakes!
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
That is exactly what scares me about this. When did we become so complacent about our own lives? I feel fucked....and not in a good way :evil:
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
stop
stop everything & go on strike by the country size
i've always daydreamed about shutting down tobacco companies. every single person stops smoking & chewing. in one day they will be screwed. focus is our friend as is unity & strength & intelligence
throw phones in the trash. 30 days with no phone calls would be hysterical. don't buy the milk full of preservative & steroids
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"The administration has now lost all credibility..."
Everyone opt out of paying taxes until April 15. Don't give them a constant stream of spending money.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
not cool because it means more is coming
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
"...on this issue"
not sure how much more evidence people need to realize they're all the fucking same.