Wake up people. It may not be a big deal today but it will be when we keep excusing away today's 'no big deal' in the name of safety and security.
Our lives have changed whether we agree or acknowledge it. I have known my stockbroker for 15 years. Worked with him, on a daily basis as the only two people in this office for 5 years, he personally knows me, my parents, my in-laws, and my kids. Yet every single time I go to his office to change my investments, I have to show him proof of identification because of the provisions within the Patriot Act. I suppose that is to keep him/me safe and secure from terrorism?? Does it hurt me when I do it? No, but I don't feel it is necessary when there is an established personal and professional relationship. What's next? And will we excuse that away? What happens when the government infringes on some civil liberty/right/belief that you disagree with? Will you continue to say its no big deal?
you can say that about any rule ever put into place. I guess we should live in a world with no rules or laws then. :fp:
I wonder if people complained about their civil liberties back in the day when we started requiring people to take driving tests and to get picture licenses. and forget about putting in stop signs and stop lights. the horror. I mean why should I have to stop for others? you are taking away my civil liberties.
Well, I never said we should live in a world with no rules or laws :fp: Big difference between invasion of privacy and creating a system of laws which are not civil liberties.
You feel free to go along with allowing the government to keep you safe and secure.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Wake up people. It may not be a big deal today but it will be when we keep excusing away today's 'no big deal' in the name of safety and security.
Our lives have changed whether we agree or acknowledge it. I have known my stockbroker for 15 years. Worked with him, on a daily basis as the only two people in this office for 5 years, he personally knows me, my parents, my in-laws, and my kids. Yet every single time I go to his office to change my investments, I have to show him proof of identification because of the provisions within the Patriot Act. I suppose that is to keep him/me safe and secure from terrorism?? Does it hurt me when I do it? No, but I don't feel it is necessary when there is an established personal and professional relationship. What's next? And will we excuse that away? What happens when the government infringes on some civil liberty/right/belief that you disagree with? Will you continue to say its no big deal?
you can say that about any rule ever put into place. I guess we should live in a world with no rules or laws then. :fp:
I wonder if people complained about their civil liberties back in the day when we started requiring people to take driving tests and to get picture licenses. and forget about putting in stop signs and stop lights. the horror. I mean why should I have to stop for others? you are taking away my civil liberties.
Well, I never said we should live in a world with no rules or laws :fp: Big difference between invasion of privacy and creating a system of laws which are not civil liberties.
You feel free to go along with allowing the government to keep you safe and secure.
the thing is Verizon phone records and google searches have NEVER been private. there have always been records of those things.
"No more illegal wiretapping of American citizens, no more ignoring the law when it is an inconvenience, this administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not. There are no shortcuts to protecting America."
----Barack Obama 2007
Things become different when you are handed the big stick and have to deal with reality.
Things also become different once you start receiving a daily intelligence briefing.
so since you didn't give me one instance where your life has been affected i'll take that as a no.
ok, that is what you should take away from what I and others have said...
and stop and frisk in NYC has worked.
So would a curfew at 8:00 pm until 8:00 am the next morning, you willing to do it? I assume you think it has worked in NYC because you weren't stopped and frisked for no reason...
sometimes the safety and freedom of the millions has to take precedence over the safety and freedoms of a few. policing isn't always pretty, but it's better than bitching after the fact when the policing wasn't done.
I will remember that. that is a novel idea, fuck over a few so that a bunch can be "safe". bullshit way of looking at civil liberty. I guess I think that when the one person is fucked over the many are fucked over too. But I guess if it doesn't happen to you then it was a good thing.
why do I suspect that many that openly complain about some of the tactics] that have come out in the past few days are also the same who complain when we don't do enough like not keeping tabs on the Boston Bombers even after the Russians gave us the information, Benghazi and 9/11?
why do I suspect that the same people who excuse these types of databases and info grabs are the same ones who refer to defendants getting off because due process wasn't followed as "getting off on a technicality?" The constitution and the bill of rights is so much more than a technicality.
I hope your life is never affected by the actions of the gov't. Mine hasn't been affected yet in a direct way, but I think everyone's has in an indirect way with the erosion of 4th amendment protections and the current terror first climate that makes it easy to swallow anything the gov't wants to do. Don't worry, they won't do anything that hurts innocent people. The gov't never hurts innocent people.
I for one am forever grateful for the ACLU and other organizations that are there to keep the gov't honest. To fight for the rights of ALL people, even the ones who haven't/won't be affected directly by certain behaviors...
So many people being willing to swallow this type of shit just shows me the terrorists have truly won.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Citizens should never give up liberties. We have the Constitution for a reason.
...
The Constitution never factored in technology. Our founding fathers never envisioned cellular technology or .50 caliber sniper rifles. They left those thing intentionally vague because they knew that things will change in the future. That is the sheer genius of our Constitution... it can adapt to change.
If you criticized Bush but support Obama you are a hypocrite.
Dems hated Bush for these things, where's Cindy Sheehan? Now the Dems are mostly ok with it. Look at the comments from Dem leaders in Congress. Now the GOP is criticizing. But when Bush was POTUS it was ok.
Meanwhile the entire time us Liberarians and Constitutionslists have been critical.
Citizens should never give up liberties. We have the Constitution for a reason.
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The Constitution never factored in technology. Our founding fathers never envisioned cellular technology or .50 caliber sniper rifles. They left those thing intentionally vague because they knew that things will change in the future. That is the sheer genius of our Constitution... it can adapt to change.
Technology is irrelevant.
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No. Because if you broadcast out across open public airwaves, you cannot presume your right to privacy.
The Founding Fathers had no concept of radios in 1776.. did they?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If you criticized Bush but support Obama you are a hypocrite.
Dems hated Bush for these things, where's Cindy Sheehan? Now the Dems are mostly ok with it. Look at the comments from Dem leaders in Congress. Now the GOP is criticizing. But when Bush was POTUS it was ok.
Meanwhile the entire time us Liberarians and Constitutionslists have been critical.
...
You seem to be really attached to labels... so, pin a label on me:
I am a registered Republican... that believes the Republican party has abandoned sanity and opted for the right-Wing fringe (i.e. The Christian Coalition) as their base. I believe in personal responsibility, not only in individuals, but in our government and corporations.
I am anti-war... I am anti-Death Penalty... I am Pro Choice, but believe that abortion should be the last resort option.
I am for the 2nd Amendment, but believe that with gun ownership comes immense responsibility. One of those responsibilities is proving that you are trustworthy in your gun ownership.
I have voted for candidates from either party.
I supported George W. Bush in the days and weeks after the September 11th attacks.. even though I did not vote for him. I opposed his war in Iraq and the expansion of government over reach he granted to DHS and other enforcement authorities. I opposed the use of torture to extract information because it means we accept that type of treatment and allow others to use those tactic on us.
I voted for President Obama because candidates McCain and Romney were terrible candidates and clung too tightly to the current Republican base ideals. I still oppose the illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay and the extension and use of Patriot act policies and procedures and hold President Obama responsible for those actions.
...
So, what am i?
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yes because we know government can be trusted with the data they've mined.
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You mean the data that you broadcast out over public airwaves for anyone to grab from your mobile two-way radio? It is your choice to use public airwaves... if you don't want your data out there... turn off your cell phone and use your landline base telephone. They need a bench issued search warrant to tap that line.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So would a curfew at 8:00 pm until 8:00 am the next morning, you willing to do it? I assume you think it has worked in NYC because you weren't stopped and frisked for no reason...
well the facts say it has worked in NYC because crime is down. and my town has a curfew for teenagers already. are you against that?
I will remember that. that is a novel idea, fuck over a few so that a bunch can be "safe". bullshit way of looking at civil liberty. I guess I think that when the one person is fucked over the many are fucked over too. But I guess if it doesn't happen to you then it was a good thing.
of course. if we had fucked over those punk ass brothers before they bombed the Boston Marathon those people would still be alive and many would still have their limbs. so yea, fuck a few to save the many.
why do I suspect that the same people who excuse these types of databases and info grabs are the same ones who refer to defendants getting off because due process wasn't followed as "getting off on a technicality?" The constitution and the bill of rights is so much more than a technicality.
yes but i guess you forgot that the Constitution gave our government the right to get the court order to allow them to get these records. Does the Constitution only count when it works in YOUR favor?
I hope your life is never affected by the actions of the gov't. Mine hasn't been affected yet in a direct way, but I think everyone's has in an indirect way with the erosion of 4th amendment protections and the current terror first climate that makes it easy to swallow anything the gov't wants to do. Don't worry, they won't do anything that hurts innocent people. The gov't never hurts innocent people.
the government helps a hell of a lot more people than it hurts. to paraphrase A Few Good Men, you enjoy the freedoms it provides, but question the manner it which it allows for those freedoms.
I for one am forever grateful for the ACLU and other organizations that are there to keep the gov't honest. To fight for the rights of ALL people, even the ones who haven't/won't be affected directly by certain behaviors...
I am grateful for a system that ALLOWs for organizations like the ACLU and others to do their best to keep our government honest. The allowance of such organizations is why our system still works
So many people being willing to swallow this type of shit just shows me the terrorists have truly won.
the effects of terrorism on American soil have gone down since the Patriot Act was put into place. they are not winning. don't let facts dissuade your argument.
..
You seem to be really attached to labels... so, pin a label on me:
I am a registered Republican... that believes the Republican party has abandoned sanity and opted for the right-Wing fringe (i.e. The Christian Coalition) as their base. I believe in personal responsibility, not only in individuals, but in our government and corporations.
I am anti-war... I am anti-Death Penalty... I am Pro Choice, but believe that abortion should be the last resort option.
I am for the 2nd Amendment, but believe that with gun ownership comes immense responsibility. One of those responsibilities is proving that you are trustworthy in your gun ownership.
I have voted for candidates from either party.
I supported George W. Bush in the days and weeks after the September 11th attacks.. even though I did not vote for him. I opposed his war in Iraq and the expansion of government over reach he granted to DHS and other enforcement authorities. I opposed the use of torture to extract information because it means we accept that type of treatment and allow others to use those tactic on us.
I voted for President Obama because candidates McCain and Romney were terrible candidates and clung too tightly to the current Republican base ideals. I still oppose the illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay and the extension and use of Patriot act policies and procedures and hold President Obama responsible for those actions.
...
So, what am i?
..
I voted for President Obama because candidates McCain and Romney were terrible candidates and clung too tightly to the current Republican base ideals. I still oppose the illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay and the extension and use of Patriot act policies and procedures and hold President Obama responsible for those actions.
this
except for voting for obama
...
I might have voted for McCain... if it wasn't for Sarah Palin. An old, old man being the only person in the way of a President Palin... I'm not having any part of that. Also, I liked the 2000 McCain who rejected the Christian Coalition crap... and didn't like the 2008 McCain that embraced the Pat Robertson bullshit factory.
Romney... just too much of a Wall Streeter for my tastes... and that guy, Ryan... hey, I'm not going back to the 1950s.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
..
I voted for President Obama because candidates McCain and Romney were terrible candidates and clung too tightly to the current Republican base ideals. I still oppose the illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay and the extension and use of Patriot act policies and procedures and hold President Obama responsible for those actions.
this
except for voting for obama
...
I might have voted for McCain... if it wasn't for Sarah Palin. An old, old man being the only person in the way of a President Palin... I'm not having any part of that. Also, I liked the 2000 McCain who rejected the Christian Coalition crap... and didn't like the 2008 McCain that embraced the Pat Robertson bullshit factory.
Romney... just too much of a Wall Streeter for my tastes... and that guy, Ryan... hey, I'm not going back to the 1950s.
since 1992 i've voted for the libertarian candidate...after voting for bush 1 i couldn't justify voting for any republican or democrat...since the libertarians were closest to what i feel how this country should be run...but then again, they're pretty nutty too but at least they're not being bought and paid for...at least not yet
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I might have voted for McCain... if it wasn't for Sarah Palin. An old, old man being the only person in the way of a President Palin... I'm not having any part of that. Also, I liked the 2000 McCain who rejected the Christian Coalition crap... and didn't like the 2008 McCain that embraced the Pat Robertson bullshit factory.
Romney... just too much of a Wall Streeter for my tastes... and that guy, Ryan... hey, I'm not going back to the 1950s.
since 1992 i've voted for the libertarian candidate...after voting for bush 1 i couldn't justify voting for any republican or democrat...since the libertarians were closest to what i feel how this country should be run...but then again, they're pretty nutty too but at least they're not being bought and paid for...at least not yet
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I voted Carter, Reagan, Reagan, G.H.W. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Obama.
Reasons were Watergate, Iran, Soviets, Iraq, not voting for Dole, not voting for G.W. Bush and the Pat Robertson bullshit brigade, Iraq/Katrina/Wall Street, Sarah Palin, wanting to see Rush Limbaugh bust a vein in his neck.
No... i did not vote for Nader. I felt the 2000 election was critical because at that time, the president in office would be replacing 2 and possibly 3 Supreme Court seats during that term. In 2000, American was not ready for a Third Party Candidate to take the office. And is still not.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
well the facts say it has worked in NYC because crime is down. and my town has a curfew for teenagers already. are you against that?
yes I am. Crime isn't down because of stop and frisk alone. crime rates are generally down everywhere. And you didn't answer my question. 8-8 curfew would severely limit crime....are you ok with it?
so yea, fuck a few to save the many.
says the person who hasn't been fucked yet
yes but i guess you forgot that the Constitution gave our government the right to get the court order to allow them to get these records. Does the Constitution only count when it works in YOUR favor?
just because a law is passed doesn't mean it is constitutional. oh well, I mean a secret court gave them the order to do it with no specific targets in mind, that makes it ok. That is in the spirit of the 4th amendment for sure. whatever, we won't agree on it being constitutional. If you like the patriot act then you like it.
the government helps a hell of a lot more people than it hurts. to paraphrase A Few Good Men, you enjoy the freedoms it provides, but question the manner it which it allows for those freedoms.
No i don't. I don't think we need to do some of the things we do to remain "free".
I certainly am not a blame america first crowd member. I appreciate what the military and others have given up for this country and the people in it. That doesn't mean that everything the gov't and military does is a good idea
I am grateful for a system that ALLOWs for organizations like the ACLU and others to do their best to keep our government honest. The allowance of such organizations is why our system still works
kind of splitting hairs with that one. This is a point we agree upon I think, but remember, a system that allows for it could be and is very different than a system where people/groups actually do it.
the effects of terrorism on American soil have gone down since the Patriot Act was put into place. they are not winning. don't let facts dissuade your argument.
depends on what you consider winning and which facts you look at. Trillions spent, upheaval and uncertainty around the globe, terrorism globally still very real, thousands of Americans dead and injured as well as an immeasurable amount of innocents killed in collateral damage...Mistrust and fear used as a tactic for elections and so much more...I don't consider that winning...but if you are talking about less attacks on US soil you might be right...so in the end I suppose it depends on how you measure winning... we really weren't attacked by foreign terrorists that much domestically before 9/11 were we (legitimate question)?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
...
You seem to be really attached to labels... so, pin a label on me:
I am a registered Republican... that believes the Republican party has abandoned sanity and opted for the right-Wing fringe (i.e. The Christian Coalition) as their base. I believe in personal responsibility, not only in individuals, but in our government and corporations.
I am anti-war... I am anti-Death Penalty... I am Pro Choice, but believe that abortion should be the last resort option.
I am for the 2nd Amendment, but believe that with gun ownership comes immense responsibility. One of those responsibilities is proving that you are trustworthy in your gun ownership.
I have voted for candidates from either party.
I supported George W. Bush in the days and weeks after the September 11th attacks.. even though I did not vote for him. I opposed his war in Iraq and the expansion of government over reach he granted to DHS and other enforcement authorities. I opposed the use of torture to extract information because it means we accept that type of treatment and allow others to use those tactic on us.
I voted for President Obama because candidates McCain and Romney were terrible candidates and clung too tightly to the current Republican base ideals. I still oppose the illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay and the extension and use of Patriot act policies and procedures and hold President Obama responsible for those actions.
...
So, what am i?
we really weren't attacked by foreign terrorists that much domestically before 9/11 were we (legitimate question)?
nope, but 9/11 forced us to change how we protect ourselves didn't it?
let me tell you something. I live in the same town and within 2 miles of where the US Open is being played next week. If Homeland Security has to take phone records and google records (not that big of a deal to me) to ensure that a Boston Marathon type event doesn't happen and keeps me, my family, my friends and neighbors all safe hey i'm all for it. bring it on.
we really weren't attacked by foreign terrorists that much domestically before 9/11 were we (legitimate question)?
nope, but 9/11 forced us to change how we protect ourselves didn't it?
let me tell you something. I live in the same town and within 2 miles of where the US Open is being played next week. If Homeland Security has to take phone records and google records (not that big of a deal to me) to ensure that a Boston Marathon type event doesn't happen and keeps me, my family, my friends and neighbors all safe hey i'm all for it. bring it on.
it changed how we protect ourselves, but that doesn't mean everything we do to protect ourselves is the right thing...that is why there is debate i suppose.
good luck with the traffic!
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
we really weren't attacked by foreign terrorists that much domestically before 9/11 were we (legitimate question)?
nope, but 9/11 forced us to change how we protect ourselves didn't it?
let me tell you something. I live in the same town and within 2 miles of where the US Open is being played next week. If Homeland Security has to take phone records and google records (not that big of a deal to me) to ensure that a Boston Marathon type event doesn't happen and keeps me, my family, my friends and neighbors all safe hey i'm all for it. bring it on.
it changed how we protect ourselves, but that doesn't mean everything we do to protect ourselves is the right thing...that is why there is debate i suppose.
good luck with the traffic!
oh I agree that not everything we do or have done to protect ourselves is always right but I think this case about the records is really much to do about nothing.
traffic will be a nightmare but I don't plan on going out after Thursday of next week except to go to Friday's round and everywhere else I can walk to.
That's the thing that always cracked me up about those numb nuts that claimed, 'Terrorist hate us because of our freedom' bullshit.
If they hate us for our freedom... then, why are we dismantling our freedom?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If you criticized Bush but support Obama you are a hypocrite.
Dems hated Bush for these things, where's Cindy Sheehan? Now the Dems are mostly ok with it. Look at the comments from Dem leaders in Congress. Now the GOP is criticizing. But when Bush was POTUS it was ok.
Meanwhile the entire time us Liberarians and Constitutionslists have been critical.
...
You seem to be really attached to labels... so, pin a label on me:
I am a registered Republican... that believes the Republican party has abandoned sanity and opted for the right-Wing fringe (i.e. The Christian Coalition) as their base. I believe in personal responsibility, not only in individuals, but in our government and corporations.
I am anti-war... I am anti-Death Penalty... I am Pro Choice, but believe that abortion should be the last resort option.
I am for the 2nd Amendment, but believe that with gun ownership comes immense responsibility. One of those responsibilities is proving that you are trustworthy in your gun ownership.
I have voted for candidates from either party.
I supported George W. Bush in the days and weeks after the September 11th attacks.. even though I did not vote for him. I opposed his war in Iraq and the expansion of government over reach he granted to DHS and other enforcement authorities. I opposed the use of torture to extract information because it means we accept that type of treatment and allow others to use those tactic on us.
I voted for President Obama because candidates McCain and Romney were terrible candidates and clung too tightly to the current Republican base ideals. I still oppose the illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay and the extension and use of Patriot act policies and procedures and hold President Obama responsible for those actions.
...
So, what am i?
Free thinker. I'm speaking of the hardcore base, don't assume I'm pointing fingers at you.
Fwiw, I voted for Obama for Senate and I've never voted for a Republican for President. I was a Democrat until 2008 when I voted Constitution Party. This past election I voted for Gary Johnson.
I find it funny how the left defends Obama and the right hates him. He would be hated by the left as much as George W if he had a (R) behind his name. And the right would declare him the greatest prez since Reagan.
:fp:
greatest country in the world!
do you really think it's not happening in your country ?
The Obama administration has been collecting the phone records of millions of U.S. customers of Verizon under a top secret court order, according to a British newspaper report which raised new and troubling privacy questions.
While the administration defended its authority to seize phone records -- and stressed that it does not monitor calls -- one civil liberties group called this the "broadest surveillance order to ever have been issued."
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
...
You seem to be really attached to labels... so, pin a label on me:
I am a registered Republican... that believes the Republican party has abandoned sanity and opted for the right-Wing fringe (i.e. The Christian Coalition) as their base. I believe in personal responsibility, not only in individuals, but in our government and corporations.
I am anti-war... I am anti-Death Penalty... I am Pro Choice, but believe that abortion should be the last resort option.
I am for the 2nd Amendment, but believe that with gun ownership comes immense responsibility. One of those responsibilities is proving that you are trustworthy in your gun ownership.
I have voted for candidates from either party.
I supported George W. Bush in the days and weeks after the September 11th attacks.. even though I did not vote for him. I opposed his war in Iraq and the expansion of government over reach he granted to DHS and other enforcement authorities. I opposed the use of torture to extract information because it means we accept that type of treatment and allow others to use those tactic on us.
I voted for President Obama because candidates McCain and Romney were terrible candidates and clung too tightly to the current Republican base ideals. I still oppose the illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay and the extension and use of Patriot act policies and procedures and hold President Obama responsible for those actions.
...
So, what am i?
Free thinker. I'm speaking of the hardcore base, don't assume I'm pointing fingers at you.
That is the way I see it.
We should not let a collective party rule our opinions. Analyze fact. And make conclusions.
I see the evil in this case.
Yet if I was the POTUS .... I would have done the same as team obama. :oops:
So now the Republicans love Obama and the Dems hate him?
.... So what, is everyone worried that the government is actually reading everyone's internet search history and monitoring who they called and shit? ... I thought it was just basically a machine that hits on "red flag" numbers and words, and then digs deeper if the machine has enough hits in one place... i.e. everyone who sent an email or did a search containing the words "bomb", "chemicals", and "post office" or whatever is probably going to get flagged and then the email is actually read or the search history is further investigated... Not that I'm saying that's a good thing (although there should be SOME kind of monitoring that will catch messages or searches that are about terrorist attacks and shit, no??). I'm just saying it's far from everyone having their history or emails or calls read or monitored. This isn't really THAT big a deal, is it?? It certainly doesn't seem like new news, in any case.
Also, I already assumed this was happening. I thought everyone did. What I'm really surprised about is that there is anyone who is surprised.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
So now the Republicans love Obama and the Dems hate him?
.... So what, is everyone worried that the government is actually reading everyone's internet search history and monitoring who they called and shit? ... I thought it was just basically a machine that hits on "red flag" numbers and words, and then digs deeper if the machine has enough hits in one place... i.e. everyone who sent an email or did a search containing the words "bomb", "chemicals", and "post office" or whatever is probably going to get flagged and then the email is actually read or the search history is further investigated... Not that I'm saying that's a good thing (although there should be SOME kind of monitoring that will catch messages or searches that are about terrorist attacks and shit, no??). I'm just saying it's far from everyone having their history or emails or calls read or monitored. This is really THAT big a deal, is it??
Also, I already assumed this was happening. I thought everyone did. What I'm really surprised about is that there is anyone who is surprised.
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Well, the way you can do it is by gathering aggregate data and dumping into a database. Then, you can cycle the data through filter based upon search criteria... such as the cell phone number os a specific suspect. What you get is every in the database that either caled or was called by that number. From there, you can get cell phone numbers from those hits you got. You can look for patterns to appear to create suspected associated of the initial cell phone number.
The issue here is Constitutional. According to the Fourth Amendment, you and I are protected from illegal searches. We are not criminals, but we might get flagged as one if someone along those pattern lines connects us to the initial suspect... sort of the six degrees of seperation. We don't know the terrorist but maybe someone we called called someone who called someone who was called by someone who called someone who was called by someone who called the suspect. And they kick in our doors in the middle of the night because of that.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
Well, I never said we should live in a world with no rules or laws :fp: Big difference between invasion of privacy and creating a system of laws which are not civil liberties.
You feel free to go along with allowing the government to keep you safe and secure.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I agree with the concept, but what does this even mean?
the thing is Verizon phone records and google searches have NEVER been private. there have always been records of those things.
Things also become different once you start receiving a daily intelligence briefing.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
ok, that is what you should take away from what I and others have said...
So would a curfew at 8:00 pm until 8:00 am the next morning, you willing to do it? I assume you think it has worked in NYC because you weren't stopped and frisked for no reason...
I will remember that. that is a novel idea, fuck over a few so that a bunch can be "safe". bullshit way of looking at civil liberty. I guess I think that when the one person is fucked over the many are fucked over too. But I guess if it doesn't happen to you then it was a good thing.
why do I suspect that the same people who excuse these types of databases and info grabs are the same ones who refer to defendants getting off because due process wasn't followed as "getting off on a technicality?" The constitution and the bill of rights is so much more than a technicality.
I hope your life is never affected by the actions of the gov't. Mine hasn't been affected yet in a direct way, but I think everyone's has in an indirect way with the erosion of 4th amendment protections and the current terror first climate that makes it easy to swallow anything the gov't wants to do. Don't worry, they won't do anything that hurts innocent people. The gov't never hurts innocent people.
I for one am forever grateful for the ACLU and other organizations that are there to keep the gov't honest. To fight for the rights of ALL people, even the ones who haven't/won't be affected directly by certain behaviors...
So many people being willing to swallow this type of shit just shows me the terrorists have truly won.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Technology is irrelevant.
Dems hated Bush for these things, where's Cindy Sheehan? Now the Dems are mostly ok with it. Look at the comments from Dem leaders in Congress. Now the GOP is criticizing. But when Bush was POTUS it was ok.
Meanwhile the entire time us Liberarians and Constitutionslists have been critical.
"drilling for fear makes the job simple"
No. Because if you broadcast out across open public airwaves, you cannot presume your right to privacy.
The Founding Fathers had no concept of radios in 1776.. did they?
Hail, Hail!!!
You seem to be really attached to labels... so, pin a label on me:
I am a registered Republican... that believes the Republican party has abandoned sanity and opted for the right-Wing fringe (i.e. The Christian Coalition) as their base. I believe in personal responsibility, not only in individuals, but in our government and corporations.
I am anti-war... I am anti-Death Penalty... I am Pro Choice, but believe that abortion should be the last resort option.
I am for the 2nd Amendment, but believe that with gun ownership comes immense responsibility. One of those responsibilities is proving that you are trustworthy in your gun ownership.
I have voted for candidates from either party.
I supported George W. Bush in the days and weeks after the September 11th attacks.. even though I did not vote for him. I opposed his war in Iraq and the expansion of government over reach he granted to DHS and other enforcement authorities. I opposed the use of torture to extract information because it means we accept that type of treatment and allow others to use those tactic on us.
I voted for President Obama because candidates McCain and Romney were terrible candidates and clung too tightly to the current Republican base ideals. I still oppose the illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay and the extension and use of Patriot act policies and procedures and hold President Obama responsible for those actions.
...
So, what am i?
Hail, Hail!!!
You mean the data that you broadcast out over public airwaves for anyone to grab from your mobile two-way radio? It is your choice to use public airwaves... if you don't want your data out there... turn off your cell phone and use your landline base telephone. They need a bench issued search warrant to tap that line.
Hail, Hail!!!
well the facts say it has worked in NYC because crime is down. and my town has a curfew for teenagers already. are you against that?
of course. if we had fucked over those punk ass brothers before they bombed the Boston Marathon those people would still be alive and many would still have their limbs. so yea, fuck a few to save the many.
yes but i guess you forgot that the Constitution gave our government the right to get the court order to allow them to get these records. Does the Constitution only count when it works in YOUR favor?
the government helps a hell of a lot more people than it hurts. to paraphrase A Few Good Men, you enjoy the freedoms it provides, but question the manner it which it allows for those freedoms.
I am grateful for a system that ALLOWs for organizations like the ACLU and others to do their best to keep our government honest. The allowance of such organizations is why our system still works
the effects of terrorism on American soil have gone down since the Patriot Act was put into place. they are not winning. don't let facts dissuade your argument.
I
this
except for voting for obama
I might have voted for McCain... if it wasn't for Sarah Palin. An old, old man being the only person in the way of a President Palin... I'm not having any part of that. Also, I liked the 2000 McCain who rejected the Christian Coalition crap... and didn't like the 2008 McCain that embraced the Pat Robertson bullshit factory.
Romney... just too much of a Wall Streeter for my tastes... and that guy, Ryan... hey, I'm not going back to the 1950s.
Hail, Hail!!!
since 1992 i've voted for the libertarian candidate...after voting for bush 1 i couldn't justify voting for any republican or democrat...since the libertarians were closest to what i feel how this country should be run...but then again, they're pretty nutty too but at least they're not being bought and paid for...at least not yet
I voted Carter, Reagan, Reagan, G.H.W. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Obama.
Reasons were Watergate, Iran, Soviets, Iraq, not voting for Dole, not voting for G.W. Bush and the Pat Robertson bullshit brigade, Iraq/Katrina/Wall Street, Sarah Palin, wanting to see Rush Limbaugh bust a vein in his neck.
No... i did not vote for Nader. I felt the 2000 election was critical because at that time, the president in office would be replacing 2 and possibly 3 Supreme Court seats during that term. In 2000, American was not ready for a Third Party Candidate to take the office. And is still not.
Hail, Hail!!!
yes I am. Crime isn't down because of stop and frisk alone. crime rates are generally down everywhere. And you didn't answer my question. 8-8 curfew would severely limit crime....are you ok with it?
says the person who hasn't been fucked yet
just because a law is passed doesn't mean it is constitutional. oh well, I mean a secret court gave them the order to do it with no specific targets in mind, that makes it ok. That is in the spirit of the 4th amendment for sure. whatever, we won't agree on it being constitutional. If you like the patriot act then you like it.
No i don't. I don't think we need to do some of the things we do to remain "free".
I certainly am not a blame america first crowd member. I appreciate what the military and others have given up for this country and the people in it. That doesn't mean that everything the gov't and military does is a good idea
kind of splitting hairs with that one. This is a point we agree upon I think, but remember, a system that allows for it could be and is very different than a system where people/groups actually do it.
depends on what you consider winning and which facts you look at. Trillions spent, upheaval and uncertainty around the globe, terrorism globally still very real, thousands of Americans dead and injured as well as an immeasurable amount of innocents killed in collateral damage...Mistrust and fear used as a tactic for elections and so much more...I don't consider that winning...but if you are talking about less attacks on US soil you might be right...so in the end I suppose it depends on how you measure winning... we really weren't attacked by foreign terrorists that much domestically before 9/11 were we (legitimate question)?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Based on your description, you're a Democrat.
nope, but 9/11 forced us to change how we protect ourselves didn't it?
let me tell you something. I live in the same town and within 2 miles of where the US Open is being played next week. If Homeland Security has to take phone records and google records (not that big of a deal to me) to ensure that a Boston Marathon type event doesn't happen and keeps me, my family, my friends and neighbors all safe hey i'm all for it. bring it on.
it changed how we protect ourselves, but that doesn't mean everything we do to protect ourselves is the right thing...that is why there is debate i suppose.
good luck with the traffic!
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
oh I agree that not everything we do or have done to protect ourselves is always right but I think this case about the records is really much to do about nothing.
traffic will be a nightmare but I don't plan on going out after Thursday of next week except to go to Friday's round and everywhere else I can walk to.
If they hate us for our freedom... then, why are we dismantling our freedom?
Hail, Hail!!!
Free thinker. I'm speaking of the hardcore base, don't assume I'm pointing fingers at you.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/was ... OE=NEWISVA
read the date line.
further , the article states some pretty damning info regarding NSA at that time and "FISA".
This has been going on since just after Sept 11, we ARE ALL UP IN ARMS now?!?!?!?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
We should not let a collective party rule our opinions. Analyze fact. And make conclusions.
I see the evil in this case.
Yet if I was the POTUS .... I would have done the same as team obama. :oops:
.... So what, is everyone worried that the government is actually reading everyone's internet search history and monitoring who they called and shit? ... I thought it was just basically a machine that hits on "red flag" numbers and words, and then digs deeper if the machine has enough hits in one place... i.e. everyone who sent an email or did a search containing the words "bomb", "chemicals", and "post office" or whatever is probably going to get flagged and then the email is actually read or the search history is further investigated... Not that I'm saying that's a good thing (although there should be SOME kind of monitoring that will catch messages or searches that are about terrorist attacks and shit, no??). I'm just saying it's far from everyone having their history or emails or calls read or monitored. This isn't really THAT big a deal, is it?? It certainly doesn't seem like new news, in any case.
Also, I already assumed this was happening. I thought everyone did. What I'm really surprised about is that there is anyone who is surprised.
Well, the way you can do it is by gathering aggregate data and dumping into a database. Then, you can cycle the data through filter based upon search criteria... such as the cell phone number os a specific suspect. What you get is every in the database that either caled or was called by that number. From there, you can get cell phone numbers from those hits you got. You can look for patterns to appear to create suspected associated of the initial cell phone number.
The issue here is Constitutional. According to the Fourth Amendment, you and I are protected from illegal searches. We are not criminals, but we might get flagged as one if someone along those pattern lines connects us to the initial suspect... sort of the six degrees of seperation. We don't know the terrorist but maybe someone we called called someone who called someone who was called by someone who called someone who was called by someone who called the suspect. And they kick in our doors in the middle of the night because of that.
Hail, Hail!!!